Home | Blog | Software | Reviews and Features | Forum | Help | Donate | About us
topbanner_forum
  *

avatar image

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
  • December 02, 2016, 06:26:06 PM
  • Proudly celebrating 10 years online.
  • Donate now to become a lifetime supporting member of the site and get a non-expiring license key for all of our programs.
  • donate

Last post Author Topic: Vocab tune-up  (Read 7832 times)

kyrathaba

  • N.A.N.Y. Organizer
  • Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 3,120
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member

IainB

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2008
  • **
  • Posts: 6,136
  • Slartibartfarst
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2013, 06:43:18 PM »
Depressing.

Target

  • Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 1,605
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2013, 07:25:20 PM »
clearly they're going to have to add a k to the spelling of dictionary...

Stoic Joker

  • Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2008
  • **
  • Posts: 6,294
    • View Profile
    • www.StoicJoker.com
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2013, 06:11:26 AM »
clearly they're going to have to add a k to the spelling of dictionary...

+1 - :D

tomos

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,315
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2013, 08:04:36 AM »
Dont see the problem :P
They're all words in everyday use (somewhere). Why not include them?

I guess the negativity is to do with the dumbing down of language (and entertainment, and maybe even life in general...).

I just read a book a while ago about Shakespeare (by Bill Bryson). English was in a state of flux around 1600, changing towards what we know today. Spelling was unbelievably flexible, and based on local pronunciation - at a time when English dialects would have been a lot stronger than today (and I'd have trouble with a lot of them today). Anyways, Shakespeare 'created' hundreds of words, and changed the use of many others. He started using nouns as verbs, verbs as nouns, etc etc (my memory for details is apalling, especially when it comes to grammar). I suppose the danger now is that although there's new words being added, I suspect there's a lot more words falling out of use - everyday use, at any rate.
And if that trend accererates, yeah, then we'll have a nice, eh, simple language ;-)
Tom

Vurbal

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2012
  • **
  • Posts: 635
  • Mostly harmless
    • View Profile
    • Read more about this member.
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2013, 08:27:58 AM »
Language doesn't get dumbed down. I realize no one has actually said that, but it seems to be the general implication.

Meanings change over time to reflect what people are actually communicating. That's not only normal, it's the entire purpose of language in the first place. Words don't have any meaning beyond what we assign to them. Likewise the purpose of a dictionary is not to dictate meaning but rather to facilitate understanding. If the dictionary doesn't reflect the ideas people are communicating it ceases to be useful or relevant.

As to simplicity, the average person knows around 10,000 words in their native tongue but only actually uses around 10% of those in regular conversation. That's not because of intelligence (not entirely anyway) but because a smaller set of words makes for more effective communication on a number of levels.

I couldn't cut my vocabulary down that far, but for most people it's actually a good thing.
I learned to say the pledge of allegiance
Before they beat me bloody down at the station
They haven't got a word out of me since
I got a billion years probation
- The MC5

Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of ''crackpot'' than the stigma of conformity.
- Thomas J. Watson, Sr

It's not rocket surgery.
- Me


I recommend reading through my Bio before responding to any of my posts. It could save both of us a lot of time and frustration.

Stoic Joker

  • Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2008
  • **
  • Posts: 6,294
    • View Profile
    • www.StoicJoker.com
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2013, 12:06:31 PM »
I guess the negativity is to do with the dumbing down of language (and entertainment, and maybe even life in general...).

+1 - Nailed it!

Sorry Vurbal, tomos and I are changing the meanings of a few words to allow for "properly" conveying the English language's newly acquired level of dumber-ness.  :D

Vurbal

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2012
  • **
  • Posts: 635
  • Mostly harmless
    • View Profile
    • Read more about this member.
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2013, 01:13:14 PM »
I guess the negativity is to do with the dumbing down of language (and entertainment, and maybe even life in general...).

+1 - Nailed it!

Sorry Vurbal, tomos and I are changing the meanings of a few words to allow for "properly" conveying the English language's newly acquired level of dumber-ness.  :D

I'd love to see how you measure that.  :P
I learned to say the pledge of allegiance
Before they beat me bloody down at the station
They haven't got a word out of me since
I got a billion years probation
- The MC5

Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of ''crackpot'' than the stigma of conformity.
- Thomas J. Watson, Sr

It's not rocket surgery.
- Me


I recommend reading through my Bio before responding to any of my posts. It could save both of us a lot of time and frustration.

Stoic Joker

  • Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2008
  • **
  • Posts: 6,294
    • View Profile
    • www.StoicJoker.com
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2013, 03:46:27 PM »
I guess the negativity is to do with the dumbing down of language (and entertainment, and maybe even life in general...).

+1 - Nailed it!

Sorry Vurbal, tomos and I are changing the meanings of a few words to allow for "properly" conveying the English language's newly acquired level of dumber-ness.  :D

I'd love to see how you measure that.  :P

Why using the formula you gave us earlier in another post of course!
2 + 2 = fish

;)

Vurbal

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2012
  • **
  • Posts: 635
  • Mostly harmless
    • View Profile
    • Read more about this member.
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2013, 04:04:54 PM »
I guess the negativity is to do with the dumbing down of language (and entertainment, and maybe even life in general...).

+1 - Nailed it!

Sorry Vurbal, tomos and I are changing the meanings of a few words to allow for "properly" conveying the English language's newly acquired level of dumber-ness.  :D

I'd love to see how you measure that.  :P

Why using the formula you gave us earlier in another post of course!
2 + 2 = fish

;)

You got me there. I can't very well argue with that reasoning.  :D

But now I know who was foolish enough to read it  :o
I learned to say the pledge of allegiance
Before they beat me bloody down at the station
They haven't got a word out of me since
I got a billion years probation
- The MC5

Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of ''crackpot'' than the stigma of conformity.
- Thomas J. Watson, Sr

It's not rocket surgery.
- Me


I recommend reading through my Bio before responding to any of my posts. It could save both of us a lot of time and frustration.

cranioscopical

  • Friend of the Site
  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 4,366
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2013, 05:02:28 PM »
English was in a state of flux around 1600, changing towards what we know today.
And thank goodness for that — I mean to say,  who'd want to kiff onef fifter?
 

tomos

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,315
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2013, 06:20:41 PM »
who'd want to kiff onef fifter?

slightly initial confusion here - because kiffen (to kiff) means something else here :-)

But seriously,
why would I want to kiff *my* fifter, maybe *you* have a fifter I could kiff ?

Tom

Target

  • Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 1,605
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2013, 06:29:07 PM »
I'd love to see how you measure that.  :P

with a dicktionary?

kyrathaba

  • N.A.N.Y. Organizer
  • Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 3,120
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2013, 07:35:55 PM »
Hey Vurbal, forgive my tardiness in welcoming you to the site. Welcome!

cranioscopical

  • Friend of the Site
  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 4,366
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2013, 08:39:57 PM »
maybe *you* have a fifter I could kiff ?
fo forry, fad to fay no fifter.  :(
 

Vurbal

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2012
  • **
  • Posts: 635
  • Mostly harmless
    • View Profile
    • Read more about this member.
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2013, 06:52:28 AM »
Hey Vurbal, forgive my tardiness in welcoming you to the site. Welcome!

Thank you!

And congratulations on your novel!
I learned to say the pledge of allegiance
Before they beat me bloody down at the station
They haven't got a word out of me since
I got a billion years probation
- The MC5

Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of ''crackpot'' than the stigma of conformity.
- Thomas J. Watson, Sr

It's not rocket surgery.
- Me


I recommend reading through my Bio before responding to any of my posts. It could save both of us a lot of time and frustration.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 08:04:29 AM by Vurbal »

kyrathaba

  • N.A.N.Y. Organizer
  • Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 3,120
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2013, 03:31:23 PM »
Quote
congratulations on your novel!

Oh! Thanks!

If you want an ebook copy, you can get one for $0.90 USD here: williambryanmiller.com

If you want a paperback and are in the US, I can get it for you cheaper than you can buy it yourself on Amazon.

Sadly, the novel doesn't distinguish itself by using any of the words mentioned in the link referenced in my OP...
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 09:56:00 AM by kyrathaba »

rjbull

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • default avatar
  • Posts: 2,925
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2013, 03:45:50 PM »
I think the Oxford dictionaries work on "historical principles," which means that they record how the language is being used and include new words as soon as they are established.  They aren't trying a top-down enforcement of Proper English.

Vurbal

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2012
  • **
  • Posts: 635
  • Mostly harmless
    • View Profile
    • Read more about this member.
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2013, 04:26:59 PM »
Quote
congratulations on your novel!

Oh! Thanks!

I you want an ebook copy, you can get one for $0.90 USD here: williambryanmiller.com

If you want a paperback and are in the US, I can get it for you cheaper than you can buy it yourself on Amazon.

Sadly, the novel doesn't distinguish itself by using any of the words mentioned in the link referenced in my OP...

I literally have no money to spend right at the moment but it's on my short list of books to check out when that changes.
I learned to say the pledge of allegiance
Before they beat me bloody down at the station
They haven't got a word out of me since
I got a billion years probation
- The MC5

Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of ''crackpot'' than the stigma of conformity.
- Thomas J. Watson, Sr

It's not rocket surgery.
- Me


I recommend reading through my Bio before responding to any of my posts. It could save both of us a lot of time and frustration.

tomos

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,315
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2013, 05:16:03 PM »
I think the Oxford dictionaries work on "historical principles," which means that they record how the language is being used and include new words as soon as they are established.  They aren't trying a top-down enforcement of Proper English.

I read an article from Slate yesterday about the Oxford dictionaries - they've diversified :-) These words were added to the Online dictionary (and maybe the next "Shorter" Oxford Dictionary?), but not to the main "Oxford English Dictionary" (OED).

Quote
• The dictionary content in ODO [Oxford Dictionaries Online] focuses on current English and includes modern meanings and uses of words
• The OED, on the other hand, is a historical dictionary and it forms a record of all the core words and meanings in English over more than 1,000 years, from Old English to the present day, including many obsolete and historical terms. Words are never removed from the OED.

THe OED one has about 20 (or whatever) volumes. The OED 'style' is based on Johnson's English dictionary. (I know that from Henry Hitching's book about Dr. Johnson's Dictionary - which was a suprisingly entertaining read btw).

the slate article was relevant to this thread, but I didnt bother posting it at the time cause the tone was just too self-righteous :-\ Reminded me of people who insist the system tray should actually be called something else...
Tom

Target

  • Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 1,605
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2013, 08:44:18 PM »
then this from doghouse diaries today...

language logic.pngVocab tune-up

perhaps I should be posting in the 'what annoys me no end' thread :huh:

techidave

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,012
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2013, 05:51:11 AM »
a saying that I picked up somewhere along the line, "even if you were using perfect english, who would know it?" 

kyrathaba

  • N.A.N.Y. Organizer
  • Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 3,120
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2013, 09:56:44 AM »
Quote
"even if you were using perfect english, who would know it?" 

Spot on!

Renegade

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,220
  • Tell me something you don't know...
    • View Profile
    • Renegade Minds
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2013, 10:13:10 AM »
Quote
"even if you were using perfect english, who would know it?" 

Spot on!

Yep.

English grammar in textbooks is polluted with Latin grammar. That makes for some rough learning.

"Smoothing" is a linguistic process where words and grammar change. This makes for even rougher learning.

English is a very young language, and isn't very smooth, although there is some smoothing going on right now.

For example, "There's 23 replies in this thread so far." That uses incorrect textbook grammar, but is becoming more popular (part of linguistic smoothing). The grammatically correct version is, "There're 23 replies in this thread so far."

(Number agreement is a pet peeve of mine. Just how hard is it to know the difference between 1 and any other number?)

Grammar is more important than most people think. It is the basis of all contracts and really needs some attention from more than just most people.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

kyrathaba

  • N.A.N.Y. Organizer
  • Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 3,120
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Vocab tune-up
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2013, 11:02:48 AM »
I completely concur regarding the importance of grammar.

grammar-knowing your shit.jpg