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Google: Gmail users shouldn't expect email privacy

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wraith808:
That would be a bit more applicable if security is what we were talking about.  Security =/= Privacy, though they have many of the same concerns.
-wraith808 (August 16, 2013, 09:44 AM)
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Would you expect any sort of security or privacy with a hand written letter, placed in an unsealed envelope, handed off to a chain of strangers to be finally delivered to its intended recipient (and I am not talking about any government run postal service here)? Any one of the strangers anywhere between you and the recipient could easily snoop on its contents and do whatever they wanted with any info gained from that snooping.

Email is like sending a postcard. There isn't even an envelope.

The only way an email can remain private and secure between point of origin and final destination is if it is encrypted with PGP or something similar.
-app103 (August 16, 2013, 10:15 AM)
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Why yes, I would.  And that's the purpose that violating that is a felony. 

My point is, yes... security can make privacy a non-issue.  But privacy is separate.

I put a lock on my door to secure the house.  But even if my door is not locked, someone breaking in is still in violation of the law.  Even if the door is wide open and you walk into my house without invitation, you can be considered in violation of the law.

That's why I say that they are different.  We shouldn't *have* to secure our communications for people to know that if you aren't on end A or end B, it is not for you to look at.

Now, I know reality is different.  But that still doesn't mean we should conflate the two.

app103:
Why yes, I would.  And that's the purpose that violating that is a felony.
-wraith808 (August 16, 2013, 01:21 PM)
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(and I am not talking about any government run postal service here)
-app103 (August 16, 2013, 10:15 AM)
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I specifically stated that to indicate that I was not referring to government supplied postal service. If you handed the envelope to your next door neighbor who then handed it to his, and so on, till it got to the other side of town, if anyone snooped into it on the way, it would not be a felony, just as it isn't a felony for you to snoop the traffic that flows through your own server.

And besides, even if you mailed a postcard through government supplied postal service, it's not a felony for every postal worker between the mailbox you dropped it into and the recipient to read it. It's only a felony for someone else (like a neighbor) to break into a mailbox and read the contents, to open a sealed envelope and read its contents, or to steal the mail and prevent it from reaching its intended recipient. And like I said...email is just like sending a postcard.

wraith808:
Perhaps the analogy breaks down.  But I think that the points that I'm making are pretty relevant and obvious... or do you disagree with that?

40hz:
it's not a felony for every postal worker between the mailbox you dropped it into and the recipient to read it.
-app103 (August 16, 2013, 01:55 PM)
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Actually, I'm pretty sure it is. They've arrested postal workers in the past for reading and rummaging through other people's mail without a warrant to do so.

If you handed the envelope to your next door neighbor who then handed it to his, and so on, till it got to the other side of town, if anyone snooped into it on the way, it would not be a felony, just as it isn't a felony for you to snoop the traffic that flows through your own server.
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That's also debatable and a gray area in law last I heard. Rules seem to vary from state to state on that. With online communications, at the very least you'd need to let the users know that it could happen - hence Google's dwelling on the phrase "reasonable expectation" which came from earlier court cases.

The interesting point here is that Americans have always assumed - and the laws previously defaulted - to a presumption of privacy in lieu of notice or explicit laws stating otherwise. That's one of the things that was supposed to be so different about this country.

Our current government is now working overtime to stand that concept on its head and disabuse us of the notion we, as US citizens, are morally and legally entitled to personal privacy.

Stoic Joker:
Last I heard if you leave something for your neighbor in their mailbox, that ain't got a stamp on it ... It's a felony. Pretty much anything that involves a mailbox (including kicking one) is considered a felony, because the mailbox itself is considered federal property.

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