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Last post Author Topic: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.  (Read 146606 times)

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #450 on: November 04, 2013, 07:02:38 PM »
The outrage is momentary until the chance for gain outweighs it.  Snowden's better sticking it out where he is IMO.

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #451 on: November 04, 2013, 07:44:16 PM »
From the funny department... smog is a matter of national security! :P

http://www.scmp.com/...e-blinded-thick-smog

Quote
Big Brother blinded: Security fears in China as smog disrupts cameras
Teams of scientists assigned to find a solution as heavy pollution makes national surveillance network useless, raising fear of terror attack

To the central government, the smog that blankets the country is not just a health hazard, it's a threat to national security.

Last month visibility in Harbin dropped to below three metres because of heavy smog. On days like these, no surveillance camera can see through the thick layers of particles, say scientists and engineers.

To the authorities, this is a serious national security concern. Beijing has invested heavily to build up a nationwide surveillance network that lets police watch every major street and corner in main cities.

Really? Smog limits visibility to 3 m and they're worried about national security?

You can't make this stuff up.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

IainB

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #452 on: November 06, 2013, 07:22:28 AM »
...Really? Smog limits visibility to 3 m and they're worried about national security?
You can't make this stuff up.
But you might be wrong. Maybe you can make this stuff up - after all, Chinese magicians have been able to perform fantastic feats using smoke and mirrors...maybe they are worried that the general populace will become expert in it too...

On another topic:
From: http://21stcenturywi...mon-ground-ideology/
Quote
"The entire history of America is towards concentration of power and oppression."
- Barrack Obama (Strassman interview August of 1995)
So, one valid question would seem to be: Is he intending continuing that history, or doing something about correcting it?

Stoic Joker

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #453 on: November 06, 2013, 11:55:29 AM »
So, one valid question would seem to be: Is he intending continuing that history, or doing something about correcting it?

Yes ... Great pains are being taken to hide the facts better.

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #454 on: November 06, 2013, 12:00:10 PM »
So, one valid question would seem to be: Is he intending continuing that history, or doing something about correcting it?

Yes ... Great pains are being taken to hide the facts better.

I'd say that the strings are showing more than anything else.  The President of the United States is a position of great power at the behest of great powers it seems to me.

Stoic Joker

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #455 on: November 06, 2013, 12:35:24 PM »
So, one valid question would seem to be: Is he intending continuing that history, or doing something about correcting it?

Yes ... Great pains are being taken to hide the facts better.

I'd say that the strings are showing more than anything else.  The President of the United States is a position of great power at the behest of great powers it seems to me.

Me too. :Thmbsup:

TaoPhoenix

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #456 on: November 06, 2013, 03:21:20 PM »
Quote
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. – C.S. Lewis

Here's a little bit of help from about 1985!
http://www.youtube.c.../watch?v=WfgKy6B-1R8
Stabilizers - Tyranny

I can see you've got things well in hand
You seem to think this is your promised land
No parade without a tip of your hat
If the people cry -- you give them what they ask
Both good and bad -- and as the sky turns black
CHORUS:
What's a little tyranny to you?
When all you need to do -- is come to me
So what -- what's a little tyranny
Now the plan begins to take some form
I could swear you had a soul before
You're in command -- holding tight to your course
You close your hand and promise them much more
From behind your door -- they've heard it all before
CHORUS
Now it seems your luck is running down
A masquerade in pieces on the ground
The fear you've lost has suddenly been found
They've come for you -- go to your angry crowd
Hear them calling out loud
You're wearing a smile through the frown
CHORUS


TaoPhoenix

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #457 on: November 06, 2013, 03:26:30 PM »
I'd say that the strings are showing more than anything else.  The President of the United States is a position of great power at the behest of great powers it seems to me.

Isn't that theoretically the first step towards change?

And I missed when the "gate" opened to make the term SnowdenGate :  )

Which is rather funny ... wasn't that episode about spying too? : )


IainB

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #458 on: November 06, 2013, 07:46:16 PM »
Quote
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. – C.S. Lewis
Here's a little bit of help from about 1985!
http://www.youtube.c.../watch?v=WfgKy6B-1R8
Stabilizers - Tyranny
...
_______________________
That has reminded me of the SF story about the inventor who designed a robot with built-in programming to ensure the health, safety and happiness of humans, and other programming to enable it to be self-replicating and able to improve on the basic engineering design, as and when necessary.

A swathe of the robots offered themselves up to a grateful mankind as personal servants. They automated all the dangerous things like cars, motorbikes and so forth, even bicycles, so that people could not get hurt using them any more. No more rock-climbing though, for example. They steadily took all the fun out of life that comes from risky behaviour and skill development.

The inventor realised that he had let an awful and unstoppable tyranny loose on the world, and he could see no way to reverse it. He became terrified of the robots. The robots were concerned for him as they strove to ensure his health, safety and happiness. And though he tried desperately to hide his unhappiness from them, they were skilled in human psychology and could see that he was not happy, and so did the best they could for him and gave him a frontal lobotomy, after which he seemed quite happy.

TaoPhoenix

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #459 on: November 06, 2013, 07:52:18 PM »
Quote
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. – C.S. Lewis
Here's a little bit of help from about 1985!
http://www.youtube.c.../watch?v=WfgKy6B-1R8
Stabilizers - Tyranny
...
_______________________
That has reminded me of the SF story about the inventor who designed a robot with built-in programming to ensure the health, safety and happiness of humans, and other programming to enable it to be self-replicating and able to improve on the basic engineering design, as and when necessary.

A swathe of the robots offered themselves up to a grateful mankind as personal servants. They automated all the dangerous things like cars, motorbikes and so forth, even bicycles, so that people could not get hurt using them any more. No more rock-climbing though, for example. They steadily took all the fun out of life that comes from risky behaviour and skill development.

The inventor realised that he had let an awful and unstoppable tyranny loose on the world, and he could see no way to reverse it. He became terrified of the robots. The robots were concerned for him as they strove to ensure his health, safety and happiness. And though he tried desperately to hide his unhappiness from them, they were skilled in human psychology and could see that he was not happy, and so did the best they could for him and gave him a frontal lobotomy, after which he seemed quite happy.

Yikes!

But before you go even that far, I meant it at a people level, it's a theme vs the whole Snowden mess. "You don't have a privacy violation if you don't know it exists" type of comments!


IainB

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #460 on: November 06, 2013, 08:17:05 PM »
...
But before you go even that far, I meant it at a people level, it's a theme vs the whole Snowden mess. "You don't have a privacy violation if you don't know it exists" type of comments!
Absolutely. Those are words one could wish one had not uttered. Very damning and at the same time illuminating words.
I suppose it's a variation of "ignorance is bliss", but it would not be correct to call it a rational justification of illegal actions.
For example:
Quote
"Sure I stole the old lady's money out her handbag, but she never knew of it, so, like, no harm done, eh?"
________________
Yeah, right.

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #461 on: November 06, 2013, 09:43:20 PM »
A US Rep actually had the gall to post this on facebook:

MikeRogersStatement.png

How bad is it when they actually say what we've been saying all along that they meant- and expect to get away with it?

IainB

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #462 on: November 10, 2013, 05:53:40 AM »
^^ Moronic.

More absurdity:
(Copied below sans embedded hyperlinks/images.)
Quote
UK Gov't Losing The Plot: Now Claiming Snowden Leaks Could Help Pedophiles
from the wtf? dept
Having already gone down the crazy path to arguing that journalism can be terorrism if it's "designed to influence a government," in the David Miranda detention lawsuit, the UK government is also claiming that the Ed Snowden leaks may help pedophiles. This seems to be a dystopian updated version of copyright maximalists trying to use child porn to support their own arguments. The general thinking is "just make some sort of nonsensical connection to child porn, and that'll show people how serious this is." The reality is that since most people can think, they realize that there is no connection to child porn, and thus the claim makes no sense. Same thing here, but at an even more bizarre level of insanity.
Quote
    Paedophiles may escape detection because highly-classified material about Britain’s surveillance capabilities have been published by the Guardian newspaper, the government has claimed.

    A senior Whitehall official said data stolen by Edward Snowden, a former contractor to the US National Security Agency, could be exploited by child abusers and other cyber criminals.
____________________
How? Uh, don't ask silly questions like that. The government has said "child abusers" so shut up and be scared. The Telegraph article, by David Barrett, admits that the government didn't explain how it made this connection, but then attempts to connect the dots for you:

Quote
    it is well known that many paedophiles use the internet to share child pornography and to groom potential victims. They also use “peer to peer” groups on the web to communicate with other child abusers.

    Any clues about how to evade detection which have been provided by Mr Snowden’s leaks could help paedophiles to cover their tracks.
____________________

But, under that argument, any privacy or encryption could be lumped into that same camp. Does David Barrett or the UK government refuse to use SSL on webpages, since encryption can be used to cover the tracks of pedophiles? The argument shows just how painfully desperate the UK government is in this case -- and also how petty and jealous it appears the Guardian's UK competitors have become, in that this is reported as if Snowden's efforts seriously would "help pedophiles."

IainB

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #463 on: November 15, 2013, 08:43:14 PM »
Potentially relevant to this thread - I just received this email (follows) from Google:
(Copied below sans embedded hyperlinks/images, but I have given just the basic links without all the concealed Google/NSA ID coding that was in the hyperlinks.)
Quote
From: no-reply@takeaction.withgoogle.com
Google regularly receives requests from governments and courts around the world to hand over our users' data. When we receive government requests for users' personal information, we follow a strict process to help protect against unnecessary intrusion.

Since 2010, we have regularly updated the Google Transparency Report with details about these requests. As the first company to release the numbers, as well as details of how we respond, we've been working hard for more transparency.

The latest update to the Google Transparency Report is out today, showing that requests from governments around the world for user information have increased 106% since we launched the report.

It's a startling fact that everyone who uses the Internet should know about:
(Link: https://takeaction.withgoogle.com/)

+106%
Since 2009, requests for Google users'
information from governments around the
world have more than doubled.


Share on Facebook         Share on Google+         Share on Twitter

It's important for law enforcement agencies to pursue illegal activity and keep the public safe. We're a law-abiding company, and we don't want our services to be used in harmful ways.

But laws that control government access to user information should also protect you against overly broad requests for your personal information.

It's time for the Electronic Communications Privacy Act to protect our privacy in more than name only -- a warrant should always be required when the government wants to read your email or any other form of online communication.

Share the Google Transparency Report, and help the Internet community stay empowered and informed.

Share on Facebook: https://takeaction.w...google.com/fb-global
Share on Google+: https://takeaction.w...m/google-plus-global
Share on Twitter: https://takeaction.w...gle.com/tweet-global


Sincerely,

Derek Slater
Google Inc.
_______________________
Of course, it's a very sincere letter. You can tell that, because the person sending it signs off with "Sincerely".

Quote
"So, I immediately clicked on all the links and went crazy 'liking' it. Nice to see Google championing The Cause of Internet freedom."
Yeah, right.

In a basement discussion here, we discussed a case: Could this be a cynical suppression of (political) free speech in the US?

Some people (not me, you understand) might say that the Google email above is a pathetic, whining and belated attempt by Google to create an artificial defence by inference that it is free from responsibility for "opening the kimono" to State/NSA surveillance, and to suggest that - golly gosh - they've even been campaigning like mad to fix this for ages don'tcha know and thus have been all along helping to make the world a better place. However, I couldn't possibly comment.

Quote
"Censorship is shown to be most effective when we dare not speak about it openly."

There's an interesting comment about this by Jack D. Douglas (a retired professor of sociology from the University of California at San Diego), from November 29, 2005: None Dare Call It Censorship
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 08:49:01 PM by IainB, Reason: Minor corrections. »

IainB

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #464 on: November 17, 2013, 04:01:04 AM »
I'm not too well up on American politics and current affairs, but I gather from this video (below) that there seems to be evidence that the US government is using the somewhat draconian anti-terror laws to criminalise legitimate democratic protesters by associating them with "terrorism".
The State's pursuit of hacker Jeremy Hammond seems to be a case in point.
Hedges: Jeremy Hammond Exposed State's Plan to Criminalize Democratic Dissent




Though I don't understand some of what the guy being interviewed is talking about - e.g., when he talks of JH being a product of "the black block" or something - it did seem to me that when he drew parallels between JH's treatment and the treatment being meted out to (for example) Snowden and the Guardian journalists who were detained/investigated under laws related to terrorism, there were some troubling similarities.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 03:09:21 PM by IainB, Reason: Minor correction. (Change \"ant-\" to anti-\".) »

4wd

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #465 on: November 17, 2013, 11:37:45 PM »
I'm not too well up on American politics and current affairs, but I gather from this video (below) that there seems to be evidence that the US government is using the somewhat draconian ant-terror laws ...

Now I know why the little bastards have got into the pantry recently ... I've been targeted by the USA.

IainB

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #466 on: November 18, 2013, 02:20:49 AM »
I'm not too well up on American politics and current affairs, but I gather from this video (below) that there seems to be evidence that the US government is using the somewhat draconian ant-terror laws ...
Now I know why the little bastards have got into the pantry recently ... I've been targeted by the USA.

Is that a problem with mice, or rats in the pantry?

IainB

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #467 on: November 18, 2013, 02:57:21 PM »
Ripples - relevant interesting headlines from around the world. Now nothing surprises, where once one might have been hugely surprised. Perhaps a glimmer of hope here and there, but mostly it looks like what you might usually find when you turn over a flat stone that has been lying on top of the ground for a while - all those wriggling, writhing, creeping and crawling things trying to scurry away from the light.
This seems to look like corruption on a grand scale, and the demand for more of it is apparently coming from the US government and several other totalitarian states/governments. This is a picture of our potential future, if we want/accept it - the new normal for "freedom".

The more that is progressively revealed on this, the more it seems to substantiate that what Snowden did was arguably a genuinely selfless act of whistle-blowing. This corruption, which is so wrong and on so many counts, needed to be shown up for what it was/is. One wonders if one would have had the courage to do the same if one had been in Snowden's shoes, and how one might have coped with it.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 03:07:52 PM by IainB, Reason: Minor corrections. »

IainB

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IainB

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The SnowdenGate pantomime.
« Reply #469 on: December 03, 2013, 06:36:27 PM »
The opening post for this thread says:
So it begins. ...
____________________
And what has ensued seems to have had all the elements of a sort of pantomime:
  • Some of the panto has been full of shock, a slowly-building level of surprise and scariness:
    e.g. it having been heralded in the Dotcom fiasco, then the stunning revelations regarding the incredible scope, extent and reach of the legalised and illegal NSA and other nations' SS surveillance, with hastily cobbled-together government legislation to retrospectively legitimise and reinforce the legality of that activity and even extend its reach further still (in US NSA, UK GCHQ, NZ DCSB); visits from SWAT teams - men with guns and helicopters - and threats of violence and punitive retribution, intimidation and destruction of property.

  • Some of the panto has drawn us into the drama of political damage control, hypocrisy and finger-pointing:
    e.g., accuse and condemn the messengers (The Guardian) for terrorism or something, and the protesters/whistleblower(s) (Dotcom, Snowden, Jeremy Hammond), yet always ignore the message.

  • Some of the actors have superbly acted out seemingly downright moronic behaviour which has also been scary in its implications:
    Quote
    "You can't have your privacy violated if you don't know your privacy is violated." - a US Representative, one Mike Rogers.

  • And now, in what might be leading up to the dénouement, we are all treated to a skillfull display of Brian Rix type farce by the British (who are always good on humour):
    Quote
    UK Parliament Makes A Mockery Of Itself Interrogating Guardian Editor
    from the sad dept
    The UK Parliament is presenting itself as a complete joke. Rather than looking into controlling the GCHQ (the UK's equivalent to the NSA), it has instead held a hearing to interrogate and threaten Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger for actually reporting on the Snowden leak documents and revealing the widespread abuses of the intelligence community. The hearing included the insulting and ridiculous question: "do you love this country?"
    Quote
        Committee chair, Keith Vaz: Some of the criticisms against you and the Guardian have been very, very personal. You and I were both born outside this country, but I love this country. Do you love this country?

        Alan Rusbridger: We live in a democracy and most of the people working on this story are British people who have families in this country, who love this country. I'm slightly surprised to be asked the question but, yes, we are patriots and one of the things we are patriotic about is the nature of democracy, the nature of a free press and the fact that one can, in this country, discuss and report these things.
    _____________________

    Perhaps equally ridiculous: after UK Prime Minister David Cameron ordered the destruction of Guardian hard drives, urged the Parliament to start this very investigation and flat out threatened news publications for reporting on government abuse, folks in Parliament have the gall to suggest that it's Rusbridger who broke the law in sharing some of the Snowden docs with the NY Times? Maybe if Cameron hadn't done everything he could to try to stifle a free UK press, the Guardian wouldn't have felt the need to share documents with a competitor.
    Quote
        Conservative MP Michael Ellis: Mr Rusbridger, you authorised files stolen by [National Security Agency contractor Edward] Snowden which contained the names of intelligence staff to be communicated elsewhere. Yes or no?

        Rusbridger: Well I think I've already dealt with that.

        Ellis: Well if you could just answer the question.

        Rusbridger: I think it's been known for six months that these documents contained names and that I shared them with the New York Times.

        Ellis: Do you accept that that is a criminal offence under section 58(a) of the Terrorism Act, 2000?

        Rusbridger: You may be a lawyer, Mr Ellis, I'm not.
    _____________________

    And from there it took a turn to the bizarre as Ellis started talking about how Rusbridger might reveal that GCHQ agents were gay. I'm not kidding.
    Quote
        Ellis: Secret and top-secret documents. And do you accept that the information contained personal information that could lead to the identity even of the sexual orientation of persons working within GCHQ?

        Rusbridger: The sexual orientation thing is completely new to me. If you could explain how we've done that then I'd be most interested.

        Ellis: In part, from your own newspaper on 2 August, which is still available online, because you refer to the fact that GCHQ has its own Pride group for staff and I suggest to you that the data contained within the 58,000 documents also contained data that allowed your newspaper to report that information. It is therefore information now that is not any longer protected under the laws and that jeopardises those individuals, does it not?

        Rusbridger: You've completely lost me Mr Ellis. There are gay members of GCHQ, is that a surprise?

        Ellis: It's not amusing Mr Rusbridger. They shouldn't be outed by you and your newspaper.

        [Brief inaudible exchange in which both men are talking]

        Rusbridger: The notion of the existence of a Pride group within GCHQ, actually if you go to the Stonewall website you can find the same information there. I fail to see how that outs a single member of GCHQ.

        Ellis: You said it was news to you, so you know about the Stonewall website, so it's not news to you. It was in your newspaper. What about the fact that GCHQ organised trips to Disneyland in Paris, that's also been printed in your newspaper, does that mean if you knew that, information including the family details of members of GCHQ is also within the 58,000 documents – the security of which you have seriously jeopardised?

        Rusbridger: Again, your references are lost to me. The fact that there was a family outing from GCHQ to Disneyland … [CUT OFF]
    _____________________


    There was much more in the hearing, with multiple UK members of parliament making statements that suggest that they are ignorant of a variety of things, including how encryption works and the nature of a free and open press.

    But, really, just the fact that they're spending time investigating Rusbridger in the first place, rather than looking more closely at what the GCHQ is doing, makes a complete mockery of the UK Parliament.
    _____________________

Some people (not me you understand) might suggest that whilst there is evidently no shortage of totalitarian and moronic/idiotic behaviour superbly exhibited by the American government actors - who have apparently learned their parts very well - it pales into insignificance by comparison with the above exhibition of skills from the British government actors, and the Brits are much more funny overall because they use stacks of irony. However, I couldn't possibly comment.

An excellent panto.
Pass the popcorn. Priceless.

IainB

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #470 on: December 04, 2013, 04:36:40 PM »
More ripples:
Quote
Fearing Government Surveillance, US Journalists Are Self-Censoring
Posted by Soulskill on Wednesday December 04, 2013 @02:42PM
from the except-the-ones-you-wish-would-self-censor dept.

binarstu writes "Suzanne Nossel, writing for CNN, reports that 'a survey of American writers done in October revealed that nearly one in four has self-censored for fear of government surveillance. They fessed up to curbing their research, not accepting certain assignments, even not discussing certain topics on the phone or via e-mail for fear of being targeted. The subjects they are avoiding are no surprise — mostly matters to do with the Middle East, the military and terrorism.' Yet ordinary Americans, for the most part, seem not to care: 'Surveillance so intrusive it is putting certain subjects out of bounds would seem like cause for alarm in a country that prides itself as the world's most free. Americans have long protested the persecution and constraints on journalists and writers living under repressive regimes abroad, yet many seem ready to accept these new encroachments on their freedom at home.'"

clk4suport

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #471 on: December 05, 2013, 02:59:39 AM »
HI there :) :)

TaoPhoenix

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #472 on: December 09, 2013, 11:52:18 AM »

This is funny:

http://www.bbc.co.uk.../technology-25297044
"Eight firms, Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, AOL, Microsoft, LinkedIn, and Yahoo, have formed an alliance called Reform Government Surveillance group."

Okay. We all have peeves against several of these companies.

But *combined* I think that's close to the A-List of tech!

I don't even know how to describe them all working together!
"Okay, Microsoft and Apple, you guys put your OS wars on hold for a bit. Twitter and Facebook, you two can put away the Wall vs Tweet discussion for a few minutes. LinkedIn, take a break from making Connections. Sure AOL, you can play too. Nice mail redesign Yahoo. Okay, let's get to business!"


40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #473 on: December 09, 2013, 12:38:07 PM »

I don't even know how to describe them all working together!

I do! It's called: spin management & damage control.

Also known as "The Fog Machine."  8)

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #474 on: December 09, 2013, 03:00:55 PM »
Those are the equivalent of the fires of Mount Doom used to forge the One Ring, with the US being Barad-dûr.

Of course, Obama himself is only Saruman the White.  That leaves the identity of Sauron himself to the reader.