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Last post Author Topic: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.  (Read 146555 times)

dr_andus

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #275 on: August 02, 2013, 11:52:22 AM »
It seems that others are looking at it in a totally different way.

Quote
The Sheremetyevo chapter may be over, but the saga itself will continue. Already, there have been calls by US congressmen that Russia should be held accountable for granting Snowden asylum. There is also little doubt that US president Barack Obama will now cancel his planned trip to Moscow in September.

I'm not so sure about this. It depends on who is talking. If it's some right-wing Republican Congressmen who are traditionally Russia-bashers and don't have much stake in the matter and want to cause discomfort to the Obama administration, sure, they'll call for cancelling the trip. They might even be doing it on behalf of the administration (by proxy), to exert some pressure.

The Obama administration is choosing its words much more carefully. They obviously need to show their displeasure, but cutting planned talks would hurt the US administration more than the Russians. It would be a win for Republicans vs. Obama administration, not US v. Russia.

Quote
With Snowden, the Kremlin did the moral thing – and the moral thing also happened to be the only thing the Kremlin could do in this instance.

I don't believe for a moment that the question of morality ever came into it for Putin... It might be more about not wanting to lose face on the world stage and in front of Russian public. It's now over to Obama. He has to decide whether he can lose face at home and abroad, or stay pragmatic and get on with business with the Russians, after a bit of grumbling...

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #276 on: August 07, 2013, 06:19:18 PM »
The Obama administration is choosing its words much more carefully. They obviously need to show their displeasure, but cutting planned talks would hurt the US administration more than the Russians. It would be a win for Republicans vs. Obama administration, not US v. Russia.

Hmmm...

Obama cancels Moscow meeting with Putin over Snowden

Russia says Obama hurting himself by canceling summit over Snowden

Quote
The Snowden crisis is a way for Obama to avoid another icy summit with Putin, political analyst Lilia Shevtsova said.

“Canceling a one-on-one meeting with Putin is an optimal way out of the situation,” Shevtsova, a senior researcher with Moscow Carnegie Center, said. “Russia’s granting Snowden temporary refuge offered Obama a welcome chance not to be involved in yet one more meeting with Putin, but without really any constructive agenda to discuss.”

dr_andus

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #277 on: August 10, 2013, 06:08:31 PM »
Hmmm...

Obama cancels Moscow meeting with Putin over Snowden

Russia says Obama hurting himself by canceling summit over Snowden

It seems to me it's another +1 to Snowden. Obama seems to be making the moves that Snowden wanted him to make, which is strategically not a situation you want to be in as a US President...

And another +1 (or potentially +100 or more) to Snowden for actually setting the agenda for legislative change on the NSA etc. and for forcing Obama to have to go on talk shows...

Obama is starting to look more and more like a foreign policy lightweight, and not a very strong strategist either. Maybe he is good at speeches and domestic issues, but many big international issues (Syria, Iran, nuclear disarmament) are being put on the back burner because of this asylum tantrum, while he is forced to respond to developments unleashed by Snowden to his domestic audience.

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #278 on: August 10, 2013, 06:24:31 PM »
It seems to me it's another +1 to Snowden. Obama seems to be making the moves that Snowden wanted him to make, which is strategically not a situation you want to be in as a US President...

How is he making the moves that Snowden wanted him to make?  I think that's reading a bit much into Snowden and what he wanted, other than a discussion on the matter.    The move with Russia had little to do with Snowden's stated goals, nor with the information released- other than tangential.  It was to avoid a conversation that he didn't want to have, and now has a very good excuse to back out of, and snub the Russians in the process, before the G20 summit.

dr_andus

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #279 on: August 11, 2013, 03:55:03 AM »

How is he making the moves that Snowden wanted him to make?  I think that's reading a bit much into Snowden and what he wanted, other than a discussion on the matter.    The move with Russia had little to do with Snowden's stated goals, nor with the information released- other than tangential.  It was to avoid a conversation that he didn't want to have, and now has a very good excuse to back out of, and snub the Russians in the process, before the G20 summit.

OK, maybe that wasn't the best way to put it. What I was trying to say is that Obama is being made to make moves that he doesn't really want to make (that are not the best moves for him), such as having to go on to talk shows to say there isn't a domestic spying program, having to propose new measures and deal with new legislation to reign in the NSA, and having to cancel his Moscow meeting. Obviously Russia is part of the game now, but initially it was Snowden's decision to reapply for temporary asylum that has led to the cancelling of the trip.

As for Obama cancelling a trip because he feels uncomfortable talking to Putin or that there is nothing to agree on - I don't buy it. There is Syria, there is Iran, there is Afganistan, nuclear disarmament etc., etc. Loads of very urgent issues on which Obama can only make progress if he talks to Putin. Cancelling the trip seems to me partly a move to please Republican Congressmen, partly to appease the NSA and the like, partly to show that the US is a superpower than can cancel meetings with the Russians. Though ironically it comes across as a sign of weakness, as the Russians are just lying back and say, "We don't care, it's not us who desperately wanted this meeting anyway," which just reveals the limitations of the US as a superpower...

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #280 on: August 11, 2013, 09:14:39 AM »
It is already known that there was no concrete agenda, and nothing that they were close on.  This isn't the G20- it was to discuss the tangential affairs.  And what else were the Russians going to say?  I mean, they weren't going to say they were sorry.  They did say they were disappointed, which I think comes pretty close to saying, "We expected it, but what were the other moves to be made?"

Quote
Russia responded by saying it is “disappointed” by the move, with Putin’s aide Yury Ushakov adding that the situation showed the US “is still not ready to build relations with Russia on an equal footing.” It is “clear” that the decision is related to Snowden, he said, reminding that the US for its part has repeatedly refused Russia’s past extradition requests.

And this shows that the decision was basically tit-for-tat- not any progressive agenda on the part of Russia.  They knew that this was going to happen, and had prepared for it and evaluated the outcome.  I don't think that there was any other way that this was going to go down, and doesn't really show diplomatic weakness... just expected outcomes.

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #281 on: August 11, 2013, 11:09:22 AM »
As for Obama cancelling a trip because he feels uncomfortable talking to Putin or that there is nothing to agree on - I don't buy it. There is Syria, there is Iran, there is Afganistan, nuclear disarmament etc., etc. Loads of very urgent issues on which Obama can only make progress if he talks to Putin.

I think the actual problem is that all the prefatory private conversations where the agreements really get hammered out (and are only announced at the choreographed conclusion of public 'talks') is what got stalled. The US and Russia are still miles apart on what to do about Syria, and will likely remain that way. Russia is stonewalling on Iran. The US is stonewalling on Afghanistan. And both sides have basically taken disarmament as far as they can without provoking a major confrontation with the conservative blocs within their own governments. Besides, as long as ballistic submarine based nuclear weapons remain conspicuously absent from any arms reduction discussions, it's all for show.

The modern, highly mobile, and heavily concealed nuclear arsenals (i.e. the ones that do serve as a genuine deterrent) are handled by the Russian and American navies. Elimination of the antiquated, highly vulnerable, and expensive to maintain land-based launch sites is something both sides would love to make happen - as long as it could be done without creating the appearance of capitulation or "leaving the country defenseless" since Obama and Putin both have their 'hawks' to deal with - and appease.

_PunchPhoto-328x438.png

So this is all puppet theater. Since there is no breakthrough they can announce, it's better to not have a public get together at all, rather than announce the meeting was a failure and yielded nothing.

Every politician knows you can often get away with appearing to be temperamental or arrogant. Because half the time the public will see that as a show of strength or moral character. However, the one thing you can never risk is being linked to an initiative that failed. Even if its something as simple as a' talk.'


« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 11:15:47 AM by 40hz »

dr_andus

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #282 on: August 11, 2013, 11:22:36 AM »

So this is all puppet theater. Since there is no breakthrough they can announce, it's better to not have a public get together at all, rather than announce the meeting was a failure and yielded nothing.


I agree with that to a certain extent. However, I wouldn't completely discount the agency of the top leaders. In the case of Russia, Putin is a quasi absolutist monarch. If he does not want something happening within his apparatus, it probably won't happen. So you can get things done, can speed things up, by talking to him directly, face to face.

On the other hand, Obama is a much weaker leader domestically (not having a control over congress). He was supposed to have much bigger sway internationally, but it doesn't seem to be happening, especially by not being able to communicate with another major powerful leader directly.

Vurbal

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #283 on: August 11, 2013, 02:15:19 PM »
On the other hand, Obama is a much weaker leader domestically (not having a control over congress). He was supposed to have much bigger sway internationally, but it doesn't seem to be happening, especially by not being able to communicate with another major powerful leader directly.
This is exactly what I consider the big problem with Obama. It's not a question of his intentions so much as his lack of experience playing DC politics and inclination to avoid rocking the boat. I tend to believe he has a lot of good ideas but lacks the temperament for leadership necessary to turn them into policy. In fact I would go so far as to say people like James Clapper, Eric Holder, and Joe Biden are actually the primary policy makers in the Obama administration.

That's too bad because I think he actually believes in the rhetoric of change that got him elected. I just think his history, up to and including his tenure as POTUS, consistently paints a picture of someone who fears failure too much to push his own agenda effectively. It's a shame too because I think he has a lot of good ideas. If he had the courage of his convictions I think he would do a lot of good.

For a pretty good overview of his history I recommend the piece Frontline aired during the 2008 election:



Since I can't seem to get the embedding code correct (maybe just my browser) here's a direct link to the Frontline page:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/choice2008/view/
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Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #284 on: August 11, 2013, 07:42:52 PM »
The PBS video is restricted. :(

Since I can't seem to get the embedding code correct (maybe just my browser) here's a direct link to the Frontline page:

It doesn't handle the "youtu.be" domain. I've fixed that here:

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #285 on: August 13, 2013, 02:34:08 AM »
Ok...

Y'all ready for this?

Got yer Depends adult diapers on?

Yer gonna piss yerselves...

Don't say I didn't warn ya...

Last chance to run-off & get 'em on!


Really...

http://www.dni.gov/i...cations-technologies

James Clapper, the Director of National Intelligence, has established a "Review Group" to look into the criminal activities that he lied about and is in charge of.

Screenshot - 8_13_2013 , 5_25_44 PM.png

But really - check this again:

Quote
The Review Group will assess whether, in light of advancements in communications technologies, the United States employs its technical collection capabilities in a manner that optimally protects our national security and advances our foreign policy while appropriately accounting for other policy considerations, such as the risk of unauthorized disclosure and our need to maintain the public trust.

They don't care about their criminality. They are ONLY concerned about people like Edward Snowden exposing their criminality! ;D

Holy shit... I'm near out of breath from laughing so hard! (I've recently developed the super-power of being able to read the news, understand it, and not piss myself laughing.)

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Stoic Joker

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #286 on: August 13, 2013, 06:35:54 AM »
Talk about the fox guarding the hen house ... Yeish!

Vurbal

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #287 on: August 13, 2013, 04:26:13 PM »
Talk about the fox guarding the hen house ... Yeish!
I don't actually mind that so much - aside from being pissed that somebody like Ed Snowden continues to be persecuted for living up to his responsibility as a citizen and human being. At this point these idiots aren't fooling anyone but themselves. I'm not saying there aren't people who believe them, but those are pure idealogues who can't admit the truth to themselves.

Just like almost any issue there are basically 3 groups of people. The ones who see, the ones who refuse to see, and the majority in the middle who can't decide for themselves so they go with what feels right. As long as the government kept them convinced there was a monster hiding in the closet waiting attack they were too scared not to believe. As soon as they looked in the closet and saw the NSA instead that's who they're afraid of.

The guys at the top literally can't see the change because nothing has changed where they are. The talking heads on TV are still lobbing softballs so they can keep their access and the boot lickers on K Street are still telling them whatever it takes to keep the government money rolling in. Eventually, by which I mean sooner rather than later, reality will come crashing in all at once when it's too late to do anything about it.

Personally I'm betting that happens when Mike Rogers, the House Intelligence Committee Chairman gets nailed to the wall. He's the easiest target because of his clear financial ties to the intelligence contracting industry and the almost daily revelations of actively obstructing Congressional oversight.

I'm pretty sure he knows it too and unlike most of them he's seen it coming since April at least. That was when Microsoft and Facebook bowed to public pressure and jumped off the CISPA bandwagon. As long as they were focused on the immunity CISPA would give them the conspiracy was safe. After that it was only a matter of time before companies started throwing the government under the bus to cover their own asses.

Not by coincidence IMO 2 days after that announcement Rogers went completely off the deep end on the House floor and he's been swimming in circles there ever since. For a while I thought it was just garden variety self important posturing by a pompous windbag but the longer he goes on the more it looks like panic.

If he goes down the whole house of cards collapses. After that it's every rat for themselves. Whoever comes clean with the most believable fake apology has the best chance of surviving. Sweeping reform will suddenly be the ticket to the White House so that's what we'll get. It won't be sincere for the most part. It won't go deep enough or last long enough, but it will be a start.
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I recommend reading through my Bio before responding to any of my posts. It could save both of us a lot of time and frustration.

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #288 on: August 16, 2013, 09:00:23 PM »
Ok... Now I've seen it all.

You know how just when you think that you've seen the most Orwellian, dystopian crap in the news, and that there is nothing that could possibly surprise you? Not even mass executions?

I've been surprised.

Shocked beyond all remote thoughts or possibilities.

The impossible has happened.

Hell has officially frozen over.

http://www.techdirt....out-this-issue.shtml

Quote
Public Concern Over NSA Spying Increasing Rapidly As Congress Discovers Their Constituents Care About This Issue

People have started giving a shit!  :o
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40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #289 on: August 17, 2013, 02:07:22 PM »
While not directly related to Snowden, the following article in the WSJ by Nicholas Quinn Rosencranz (professor of law at Georgetown and a senior fellow in constitutional studies at the Cato Institute) offers a telling look into the mindset and proclivities of our current president when it comes to obeying the Constitution and observing the limits to his powers as the US president:

Quote
The Obama administration announced last month via blog post that the president was unilaterally suspending ObamaCare's employer mandate—notwithstanding the clear command of the law. President Obama's comments about it on Aug. 9—claiming that "the normal thing [he] would prefer to do" is seek a "change to the law"—then added insult to constitutional injury. It also offers a sharp contrast with a different president who also suspended the law...

ican.png

A very well written and reasoned article that's worth reading in it's entirety. Find the rest of it here.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 02:22:10 PM by 40hz »

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #290 on: August 17, 2013, 02:44:50 PM »
As long as the government kept them convinced there was a monster hiding in the closet waiting attack they were too scared not to believe. As soon as they looked in the closet and saw the NSA instead that's who they're afraid of.

There's comedy gold there, ya know!


Vurbal

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #291 on: August 17, 2013, 03:08:13 PM »
That WSJ artice basically matches my observations going back all the way to the previous administration. I think it can be largely explained by the similarities between the 2 presidents. Because lacked significant experience navigating the Washington political environment so both chose running mates who were established power players with a lot of history as Congressional power players from the period when the lobbyists basically infiltrated the legislative process in the 80s and 90s.

The initial change started in the early 80s. Lobbyists focused largely on Republicans who were desperate to get control of Congress. That finally happened in the mid-90s. They came in with the goal of passing as much legislation as possible in the shortest amount of time. The only way to accomplish that was bringing in outside help to quickly author complex bills and rally support. The same corporate allies who helped them modernize the party's campaign strategies were right there volunteering to do the same for the day to day operations.

Even as recently as Clinton, though, they hadn't gained a foothold in the White House. They were writing most of the laws and directing votes but for the most part their direct influence stopped there. When Dick Cheney became Vice President he brought them along for the ride. His primary corporate allegiance was to the defense industry and the current dominance of the intelligence contracting industry reflects that. I'm sure he was also instrumental in the general atmosphere of former corporate executives almost entirely taking over as government regulators.

Obama had the same problem and his solution was Joe Biden. Not by coincidence when Biden became Vice President the intellectual property interests he represented in Congress got their own private police force spread throughout the Justice Department and Homeland Security. He also had strong ties to the intelligence community so naturally their expansion into the executive branch continued as well.

At this point the question is whether change comes before we hit rock bottom or after. The more top heavy the economy gets, the faster the end comes. At the rate we're going I'd say rock bottom is within the next 5 years, probably the next 2-3.
I learned to say the pledge of allegiance
Before they beat me bloody down at the station
They haven't got a word out of me since
I got a billion years probation
- The MC5

Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of ''crackpot'' than the stigma of conformity.
- Thomas J. Watson, Sr

It's not rocket surgery.
- Me


I recommend reading through my Bio before responding to any of my posts. It could save both of us a lot of time and frustration.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 03:20:07 PM by Vurbal »

TaoPhoenix

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #292 on: August 17, 2013, 03:29:13 PM »
After.

But you can't use Rock Bottom anymore. That's WWE's intellectual property now!

Dramatization of the US condition:

http://www.youtube.c.../watch?v=kRqVNS_tQ4A


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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #293 on: August 18, 2013, 06:53:59 AM »
More hilarity - Oath Keepers is running ads in Washington District of Criminals:

http://www.usnews.co...ts-unrepentant-obama

Quote
...

A photograph of President Barack Obama is bracketed by red panels that say "Truth Is Treason" and "Big Brother Is Watching."

Last month the group posted three ads inside the Pentagon Metro stop, encouraging workers with access to classified information to "expose unconstitutional actions."

The Pentagon ads enraged some workers, including one man interviewed by WJLA-TV. "[Snowden] should be crucified," the man said.
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dr_andus

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #294 on: August 18, 2013, 04:49:23 PM »
"David Miranda, partner of Guardian interviewer of whistleblower Edward Snowden, questioned under Terrorism Act."

Again, this is just taking matters too far, just like with the Bolivian president's airplane. But at the same time this is scary that this is happening in a 'democracy,' very likely at the behest of another 'democratic' nation. It's difficult to read this in any other way than as an attempt at intimidating a journalist. This whole "free press" and "free speech" thing is just a thing of the past.

Quote
But they obviously had zero suspicion that David was associated with a terrorist organization or involved in any terrorist plot. Instead, they spent their time interrogating him about the NSA reporting which Laura Poitras, the Guardian and I are doing, as well the content of the electronic products he was carrying. They completely abused their own terrorism law for reasons having nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism: a potent reminder of how often governments lie when they claim that they need powers to stop "the terrorists", and how dangerous it is to vest unchecked power with political officials in its name.

And here is another, more potent quote from Greenwald:

Quote
This is obviously a rather profound escalation of their attacks on the news-gathering process and journalism. It's bad enough to prosecute and imprison sources. It's worse still to imprison journalists who report the truth. But to start detaining the family members and loved ones of journalists is simply despotic. Even the Mafia had ethical rules against targeting the family members of people they felt threatened by. But the UK puppets and their owners in the US national security state obviously are unconstrained by even those minimal scruples.

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #295 on: August 18, 2013, 05:59:23 PM »
"David Miranda, partner of Guardian interviewer of whistleblower Edward Snowden, questioned under Terrorism Act."
...This whole "free press" and "free speech" thing is just a thing of the past.

Shameful. Just goes to show that it's not just the US that is thoroughly corrupt. The US just has more freedom than most places and needs to be "dealt" with more.
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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #296 on: August 18, 2013, 10:28:26 PM »
This is rather long, so I won't post a quote, but it's a list of non-stop surveillance insanity:

http://www.washingto...ng-on-americans.html
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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #297 on: August 19, 2013, 02:56:09 AM »
"David Miranda, partner of Guardian interviewer of whistleblower Edward Snowden, questioned under Terrorism Act."

Glen has an article about the incident:

http://www.theguardi...anda-detained-uk-nsa

Quote
Glenn Greenwald: detaining my partner was a failed attempt at intimidation
The detention of my partner, David Miranda, by UK authorities will have the opposite effect of the one intended

...

They completely abused their own terrorism law for reasons having nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism: a potent reminder of how often governments lie when they claim that they need powers to stop "the terrorists", and how dangerous it is to vest unchecked power with political officials in its name.

I wonder what kind of fallout there will be. This is an obvious abuse of power.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Carol Haynes

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #298 on: August 19, 2013, 07:32:54 AM »
This is rather long, so I won't post a quote, but it's a list of non-stop surveillance insanity:

http://www.washingto...ng-on-americans.html


This says it all:

Quote
Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter … in the wake of the NSA spying scandal criticized the American political system. “America has no functioning democracy,” Carter said Tuesday at a meeting of the “Atlantic Bridge” in Atlanta.

See http://www.spiegel.d...rt-usa-a-911589.html

Good old Peanut.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 07:38:22 AM by Carol Haynes »

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #299 on: August 19, 2013, 08:01:48 AM »
^ Yeah, I posted that earlier, and not too many people had nice things to say about him.  :-\