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Last post Author Topic: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.  (Read 146600 times)

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #200 on: July 22, 2013, 11:42:28 AM »
Quote
So, why should Germany of all countries offer asylum to an American? Hochhuth writes that “more than any other, the German people are obligated to honour the right of asylum because, beginning in 1933, our elite, without exception from the Mann brothers to Einstein, survived the 12-year Nazi dictatorship purely because other countries, with the US as the greatest example, offered asylum to these refugees.”

Einstein, the Mann brothers - plus those 500 or so Nazi scientists and engineers who "emigrated" to the US with "bleached" records and amnesty from any future prosecution - provided they took the research jobs they were offered once here. And all of this is thanks to something called Operation Paperclip.

But that was only to keep them out of the hands of the Russians, who were doing the exact same thing, so apparently that made it all hunky-dorey! :-\

These really were a sweet bunch of guys. Here's a picture of 104 of them, looking healthy and happy at the US Ft. Bliss military research facility in Texas, taken back in 1946:

640px-Project_Paperclip_Team_at_Fort_Bliss.jpg

-------------------

Interesting historical note: the US military detenion center operating in Cuba is not the first secret detention and interrogation facility the US military has operated in direct and knowing contravention of the Geneva Convention.

Back at the end of WWII, the US operated a similar facility dubbed "P.O.Box 1142" in Ft. Hunt, Virginia, that was used to detain and interrogate what would today be called "high value prisoners."

Although the program code-named MIS-Y secretly transferred "nearly 4000" prisoners (in a manner eerily similar to today's practice of "extraordinary rendition") to this facility from where they had been captured in Europe, the surviving camp records (and actual later accounts from those who had been "processed" and released from this facility) seems to conclusively indicate that no form of torture had ever been used on any of the detainees.

Nice to see that the Americans, who faced down something as monstrous as Nazi Germany, still remembered what the United States - as a nation - stood for when dealing with its enemies. That's something many in our succeeding generations seem to have strangely forgotten.

The bulk of P.O. Box 1142 facility, which was begun in 1942, was completely bulldozed in 1946.

There's a monument at Ft. Hunt commemorating this largely unknown bit of US WWII history:

Screenshot from 2013-07-22 12:25:00.png

 8)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 12:03:38 PM by 40hz »

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #201 on: July 22, 2013, 02:25:11 PM »
It seems like after all this time, and with all of the research on the subject... not just being humane (and human), but being practical, we'd get it through our minds that torture (not enhanced interrogation, but torture) results in inconsistent and unreliable intelligence.  So... even if you don't want to be human, you just want to make it appear so, we'd just do away with it.   :-\

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #202 on: July 22, 2013, 03:33:58 PM »
It seems like after all this time, and with all of the research on the subject... not just being humane (and human), but being practical, we'd get it through our minds that torture (not enhanced interrogation, but torture) results in inconsistent and unreliable intelligence.  So... even if you don't want to be human, you just want to make it appear so, we'd just do away with it.   :-\

This.

By the same  token, "enhanced interrogation" was never really about getting tactical information. Any it did obtain was purely a side effect.

The real goal for these practices (i.e. torture, kidnapping, etc. - I'll leave the reader to pick their own mealy-mouthed euphemisms like our government has) is found within the much bandied phrase: Shock & Awe.

Have you ever seen a pack of adolescent boys hunkered down next to an anthill with one of them holding a magnifying glass? That's what you have here.

Guantanamo is not about security. Or obtaining information. It is about malice, and punishment, and reprisal, and cruelty - and clearly conveying the message that the United States is one crazy mean bastard that everybody else in the world had better think twice - and then think twice about again - before they go messing with it.

Because if you do, this current government of ours promises that it will dedicate every last drop of it's vast resources to first hunting you down - and afterwards making you wish by all you hold holy, that you had never been born.

There are easily a dozen things far worse than dying. And the US wants everyone to know with absolute certainty that it can do all of them.*

Now time was when this sort of behavior would be considered a form of state sponsored terror. But "terrorism" is what other nations, and political groups, and police and military forces do - not us.

What we do is "shock and awe." Because we say that's what it is we do.

Anybody got a problem with that?


---------------------

*Note: to get an idea of where the mindset behind this is, look no further than the words of Cofer Black, the individual heading the CIA’s post-9/11 counterterrorism programs:

"When I speak, I think the American people need to look into my face, and I want to look the American people in the eye.  My name is Cofer Black. This is a very highly classified area.  All you need to know is that there was a before 9/11 and there was an after 9/11.  After 9/11, the gloves come off."

« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 03:47:53 PM by 40hz »

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #203 on: July 22, 2013, 08:40:02 PM »
Now time was when this sort of behavior would be considered a form of state sponsored terror. But "terrorism" is what other nations, and political groups, and police and military forces do - not us.

What we do is "shock and awe." Because we say that's what it is we do.

Anybody got a problem with that?

Yes. ;)

There's a difference between places like North Korea and the US.

In North Korea, the totalitarian state is so utterly and openly oppressive that nobody dare speak out or step out of line.

In the US, people are mostly brainwashed into not speaking or stepping out of line, and they stay in line willingly as their capacity to question has been removed, thanks to a wonderfully effective propaganda machine. However, it is still possible to do so with a much lower risk than in North Korea.

AN UNCOMFORTABLE QUESTION

I rather doubt that there are many people here that regularly donate to support the KKK, Stormfront, al-Qaeda, or other similarly sinister organisations. That's probably because supporting evil is evil.

What does that then say when people support wars of aggression (and all the other nastiness) done in their names?

An older reference, but still very relevant:

https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Not_in_Our_Name

Full text of the Not in Our Name Pledge of Resistance

We believe that as people living
in the United States it is our
responsibility to resist the injustices
done by our government, in our names

Not in our name
will you wage endless war
there can be no more deaths
no more transfusions of blood for oil

Not in our name
will you invade countries
bomb civilians, kill more children
letting history take its course
over the graves of the nameless

Not in our name
will you erode the very freedoms
you have claimed to fight for

Not by our hands
will we supply weapons and funding
for the annihilation of families
on foreign soil

Not by our mouths
will we let fear silence us

Not by our hearts
will we allow whole peoples
or countries to be deemed evil

Not by our will
and Not in our name

We pledge resistance
We pledge alliance with those
who have come under attack
for voicing opposition to the war
or for their religion or ethnicity

We pledge to make common cause
with the people of the world
to bring about justice freedom and peace

Another world is possible
and we pledge to make it real




The more people that withdraw their support for the criminal systems that we now have, the sooner we won't have these criminal systems. The biggest problem is not "out there", the biggest problem is in our minds. If everyone simply walked away from it, it would cease to exist.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

tomos

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #204 on: July 24, 2013, 10:35:16 AM »
Re Germany and Snowden / NSA / etc.
There's a lot of questions being asked in Germany - there's supposed to be an official statement today or tomorrow (sorry forget which) but I dont have great expectations.

here's a good summary via Reddit (Snowden Gets Whistleblower Award in Germany)

Spoiler
[–]prollyjustsomeweirdo 728 points 20 hours ago

People here need to realize that this is not a government sponsored award. Germany didn't "give him" this award, he gets it in Germany.

The irony of this is not lost on me though. He would be put in chains the moment he tried to receive this award in person.


[–]ademnus 30 points 17 hours ago

especially because it just came out in the wash that germany partnered with the US to spy on german citizens too.


[–]grimhowe 4 points 14 hours ago

Wow, i hadnt heard. Dudnt Germany 'demand answers' from Obama in regards to the spying of the US on german citizens shortly after the NSA thing,

Goes to show ..


[–]ademnus 15 points 14 hours ago

they did and then the truth came out. oops!


[–]prollyjustsomeweirdo 5 points 5 hours ago

Yeah we did, it was hilarious. Our minister of the interior went to Washington to "demand answers". Obama basically told him "Just because, now go back home" and he did. Said afterwards his trip was a success and he now understands why PRISM is awesome, and every other citizen should too.


[–]underwaterlove 13 points 11 hours ago

Well, it's not like Germany is a single entity with a single mind. It's quite possible that those who didn't know were genuinely upset and really wanted to know what was going on, while those in the know just played along, pretended they didn't know anything either and hoped it'd just blow over.


[–]ClownWithCrown 4 points 7 hours ago

We have different political parties you know?


[–]Asyx 10 points 13 hours ago*

The opposition did. Merkel was quiet. We now know why...


[–]nyando 3 points 6 hours ago

The thing is, when this whole shebang started out, the opposition parties were actually in power. So they definitely knew about this.


[–]FormalyKnownAsFury12 2 points 3 hours ago

It is still debated whether the cabinet/chancellor knew about this (allthough it seems very likely). However, there is pretty decisive evidence that the BND (german intelligence agency) has been cooperating with the NSA ever since 1962.

Tom

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #205 on: July 24, 2013, 11:07:04 AM »
The game is afoot!

lgtoc.jpg

This from ArsTechnica (link here)

Quote
NSA leaker Snowden granted entry to Russia
He has received transit papers, ending month-long limbo.

by Sean Gallagher - Jul 24, 2013 2:00 pm UTC


Edward Snowden, the former Booz-Allen contractor who leaked details of the National Security Agency's sweeping Internet surveillance programs, has been granted papers by the Russian government that allow him to leave the transit zone at Sheremetyevo International Airport, where he has resided in limbo since leaving Hong Kong a month ago. According to the Interfax news agency, Snowden received his papers this afternoon and is preparing to leave the airport. <more>


UPDATE: The BBC is saying this announcement was premature and papers have not been issued to Snowden - so who knows what's going on right now?
 :huh:

« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 11:21:05 AM by 40hz »

dr_andus

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #206 on: July 24, 2013, 11:32:14 AM »
This should allow him to walk into one of 3 Latin American embassies and claim asylum and get a travel document. But it still doesn't solve his logistical problem of how to get to the final destination, unless enough money has been raised for that charter flight and a suitable provider has been found.

Plus he will need some serious security escort while out and about in Moscow, to protect him from hostile security agencies, the media, and crackpots. I can't see how all that can be accomplished without active FSB assistance, in which case his moves will be seriously constrained (and channelled) by the Russians. He can basically only do what the Russians allow him to.

The Russians must have already decided whether it's to their advantage or disadvantage to keep Snowden in Moscow and/or in Russia until the G20 summit. So probably Snowden's next steps will play out within that framework...

Stoic Joker

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #207 on: July 24, 2013, 12:06:32 PM »
...to protect him from hostile security agencies, the media, and crackpots.

They have crackpots in Russia?? I thought that was an American thing.

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #208 on: July 24, 2013, 01:34:36 PM »
his moves will be seriously constrained (and channelled) by the Russians

No surprise there. But that was always the case the minute he crossed into Russia anyway.

The Russians must have already decided whether it's to their advantage or disadvantage to keep Snowden in Moscow and/or in Russia until the G20 summit. So probably Snowden's next steps will play out within that framework...

I'm guessing they'll want him gone since his presence will only create an unwanted news distraction once the G20 commences. And Russia desperately needs that meeting to go well to show they are still a player to be reckoned with on  the international stage.

Of course, getting Snowden out of Russia without being too directly involved will be a significant challenge for Russia. Because sooner or later Snowden's plane will need to enter international airspace - at which point there will only be political considerations keeping the US from intercepting and forcing his flight to reroute. Most likely to an American base in Korea.

Putting him aboard a Russian government-owned diplomatic plane (with full advance public fanfare) might possibly work. But I doubt the Russians would want to force that sort of showdown in exchange for so little potential gain to themselves. Even the Russians know our president, like theirs, can only lose so much face and be pushed so far before his own government forces some sort of action action to be taken in response.

I somehow get the feeling what we're seeing now is pure "puppet theater." I strongly suspect some sort of brokered arrangement has already been made that will ultimately result in Snowden winding up in US custody without making the behind the scenes choreography too obvious.

Like the wicked witch said: "These things must be handled delicately..."

30ugly-600.jpg

...otherwise it hurts the spell."
 :o

dr_andus

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #209 on: July 24, 2013, 02:31:21 PM »
They have crackpots in Russia?? I thought that was an American thing.

You'd be surprised how widely American crackpots travel.  ;) Wasn't there a dude that swam right across a lake to Aung San Suu Kyi's house while she was under house arrest? Or the ones that keep popping up in North Korea and end up hanging out with the Supreme Leader...  :)

I strongly suspect some sort of brokered arrangement has already been made that will ultimately result in Snowden winding up in US custody without making the behind the scenes choreography too obvious.

It's not an impossibility, but I somehow doubt. It would reflect badly on Putin domestically, as there is strong popular support for helping Snowden. Plus it would send the wrong message to potential US defectors and whistleblowers, and even existing double agents. The FSB needs to show that you'll be looked after if you cross over to them. Russia is trying to differentiate itself as "better than the US" in some sense but if they hand him over, they lose that advantage.

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #210 on: July 24, 2013, 03:38:11 PM »
The FSB needs to show that you'll be looked after if you cross over to them.

Yes. While he's there.

But once airborne, there's plenty of opportunity for plausible deniability.

Besides, Putin has already gone on record as saying Snowden case wasn't an important enough issue that it should be allowed to interfere with any ongoing 'business as usual' relations between the United States and Russia.

Both presidents have now publicly downplayed Snowden's significance. From that you can be sure some understanding has emerged between them about how the endgame is going to be managed while the theme of "it's really no big deal" plays softly in the background.
 ;)

Stoic Joker

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #211 on: July 24, 2013, 05:24:31 PM »
Carefully orchestrated mid-air tragedies aside...I'm still rooting for Snowden. I'd love to see something really wild come out of his bag that the US can't spin doctor the crap out of. Give us something to kickoff impeachment proceedings with ... That'll make me giggle for days.

..And don't tell me it can't happen...I'm trying to keep hope alive damn it.  :D

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #212 on: July 24, 2013, 05:47:03 PM »
Carefully orchestrated mid-air tragedies aside...I'm still rooting for Snowden. I'd love to see something really wild come out of his bag that the US can't spin doctor the crap out of. Give us something to kickoff impeachment proceedings with ... That'll make me giggle for days.

..And don't tell me it can't happen...I'm trying to keep hope alive damn it.  :D

Impeachment process leaves us with Biden.  Just as if W had been impeached, we would have had Cheney.  Incompetence vs. Evil.   *sigh*  What hope?   :huh:

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #213 on: July 24, 2013, 06:56:30 PM »
I was thinking clean house and hold emergency elections...because the only guy left in line that isn't in handcuffs is the janitor.

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #214 on: July 24, 2013, 07:41:23 PM »
I'm not so sure that it is in the best interests of the US to actually "get" Snowden. What happens if he's got a dead-man-switch for the files he has? Ooops.

But, we'll see how this plays out... My bet is on Snowden successfully making it to wherever get gets asylum.

As for him worrying about being rendered/kidnapped... I can't see the US having the balls to do that on Russian soil. They're currently trying to start WWIII in Syria by proxy through arming different sides. Kidnapping Snowden would cause far too much tension and the bloodshed would invariably spill outside of the Middle East. My guess is that they both want their new war contained there.

Besides... Russia (likely) has better weapons systems than the US/NATO, and I don't think anyone wants to see that proved in their own backyards. And +1 for the comment above about the FSB not wanting to lose face.

(I used to go drinking with a few engineers that worked in defense, and they had nothing but praise for Russian weaponry. They described Russian tech as far beyond what is available in the west, and particularly fighter technology. Since then I've heard at least one Russian general that I can remember come out and gently remind the west about their superior systems.)

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Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #215 on: July 24, 2013, 07:49:27 PM »
^Funny. I know a whole raft of defense contract engineers and they've all said pretty much the opposite about a lot of Russian tech. Especially their aircraft. Described them as all balls and no finesse with decades old electronics.

Also just had a friend (non US citizen working for a non-US company btw) come back from China and Russia. He's an EE with a PhD in physics. He was very impressed by what he saw of China's tech - and very unimpressed with what Russia showed him.

Guess it all depends on who saw what - and who you talk to. ;D

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #216 on: July 24, 2013, 07:55:59 PM »
I was thinking clean house and hold emergency elections...because the only guy left in line that isn't in handcuffs is the janitor.

Emergency elections usually don't work out so well...

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #217 on: July 24, 2013, 07:57:34 PM »
^Funny. I know a whole raft of defense contract engineers and they've all said pretty much the opposite about a lot of Russian tech. Especially their aircraft. Described them as all balls and no finesse with decades old electronics.

Also just had a friend (non US citizen working for a non-US company btw) come back from China and Russia. He's an EE with a PhD in physics. He was very impressed by what he saw of China's tech - and very unimpressed with what Russia showed him.

Guess it all depends on who saw what - and who you talk to. ;D

This.  Especially the emphasized part.  But for the record, my sources jibe with 40.  Especially in relation to aircraft.

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #218 on: July 24, 2013, 07:59:47 PM »
As for him worrying about being rendered/kidnapped... I can't see the US having the balls to do that on Russian soil.

They won't do anything like that. Grabbing him enroute over international airspace, or after he reaches whichever SA country grants him asylum is a different story.

I also wouldn't get too optimistic about what Snowden may still have in his pocket. If the current revelations haven't been enough to move the entire US public, its Legislature, and Judiciary en masse against the current administration, nothing will. Because right now people are ready to believe anything bad they hear and it doesn't seem to be making anybody ready to take up arms just yet. And it likely won't.


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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #219 on: July 24, 2013, 08:10:44 PM »
Carefully orchestrated mid-air tragedies aside...I'm still rooting for Snowden. I'd love to see something really wild come out of his bag that the US can't spin doctor the crap out of. Give us something to kickoff impeachment proceedings with ... That'll make me giggle for days.

..And don't tell me it can't happen...I'm trying to keep hope alive damn it.  :D

Impeachment process leaves us with Biden.  Just as if W had been impeached, we would have had Cheney.  Incompetence vs. Evil.   *sigh*  What hope?   :huh:

  Just because your impeached don't mean you get thrown out of office.  Clinton was impeached and he served out his presidency.....

Tinman57

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #220 on: July 24, 2013, 08:25:41 PM »
^Funny. I know a whole raft of defense contract engineers and they've all said pretty much the opposite about a lot of Russian tech. Especially their aircraft. Described them as all balls and no finesse with decades old electronics.

Also just had a friend (non US citizen working for a non-US company btw) come back from China and Russia. He's an EE with a PhD in physics. He was very impressed by what he saw of China's tech - and very unimpressed with what Russia showed him.

Guess it all depends on who saw what - and who you talk to. ;D

  Russian aircraft technology is waaaaaay behind the U.S.  Their aircraft, while looking sleek, are very heavy.  While their engines produce a lot of thrust, they are heavy and don't get good gas mileage.  Basically they still use nuts and bolts where U.S. aircraft use high stress rivets and special titanium bolts, which makes for a much lighter aircraft.  Not to mention titanium airframes and boron carbide for high stress panels, flight control surfaces and speed brakes.
  Of course there's a lot of "other" things that goes along with this, but I signed a non-disclosure agreement and really don't want to go to jail....   :o

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #221 on: July 24, 2013, 08:59:28 PM »
^Funny. I know a whole raft of defense contract engineers and they've all said pretty much the opposite about a lot of Russian tech. Especially their aircraft. Described them as all balls and no finesse with decades old electronics.

Also just had a friend (non US citizen working for a non-US company btw) come back from China and Russia. He's an EE with a PhD in physics. He was very impressed by what he saw of China's tech - and very unimpressed with what Russia showed him.

Guess it all depends on who saw what - and who you talk to. ;D

  Russian aircraft technology is waaaaaay behind the U.S.  Their aircraft, while looking sleek, are very heavy.  While their engines produce a lot of thrust, they are heavy and don't get good gas mileage.  Basically they still use nuts and bolts where U.S. aircraft use high stress rivets and special titanium bolts, which makes for a much lighter aircraft.  Not to mention titanium airframes and boron carbide for high stress panels, flight control surfaces and speed brakes.
  Of course there's a lot of "other" things that goes along with this, but I signed a non-disclosure agreement and really don't want to go to jail....   :o

Dunno. This was about 17 years ago, so that was then...

I remember they described an SU (IIRC) fighter that could hover while oriented vertically, fall backwards then fly upside down. (I don't recall the model number or if they'd mentioned it.) Kind of like this:

1)
------>

2)
stop, hover & flip

3)
<------

They'd seen it in defense videos and claimed that there wasn't anything in the west that approached the maneuverability of that particular jet.

But it really does depend on who you talk to. A lot of stuff is not very well known, and then you have things like that one general alluded to - god only knows what he was talking about. (I forget the reference - perhaps someone else knows.)

I've still got a defense catalog and DVD around here somewhere from a gig a while back. Some of the weaponry in there is pretty freaky. e.g. There's a type of rifle/rocket/grenade launcher in it designed to kill people that have taken cover behind something or that are in a foxhole. The projectile simply explodes overhead, killing everything underneath. I forget the details. (Oddly enough, the actual physical catalog and DVD I saw that in you can't get without clearance, but they at one point had a lot of it publicly available on an open web site. Go figger.)
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40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #222 on: July 24, 2013, 08:59:41 PM »
 Of course there's a lot of "other" things that goes along with this, but I signed a non-disclosure agreement and really don't want to go to jail....   :o

I've still got a defense catalog and DVD around here somewhere from a gig a while back. Some of the weaponry in there is pretty freaky. ... (Oddly enough, the actual physical catalog and DVD I saw that in you can't get without clearance, but they at one point had a lot of it publicly available on an open web site. Go figger.)


Yes indeed. Those who are still curious about many of the things the people who work in the defense industry are not allowed to talk about (because they signed NDAs and/or required special clearances to know about and could be jailed if they did talk about it) will just have to go to their nearest large public library and ask where the Jane's Guides are kept.

That, or attend a defense industry weapons or air show and get copies of the free brochures these companies hand out detailing their products and technology.
 :-\ :P
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 09:06:16 PM by 40hz »

superboyac

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #223 on: July 24, 2013, 09:35:32 PM »
Yes indeed. Those who are still curious about many of the things the people who work in the defense industry are not allowed to talk about (because they signed NDAs and/or required special clearances to know about and could be jailed if they did talk about it) will just have to go to their nearest large public library and ask where the Jane's Guides are kept.

That, or attend a defense industry weapons or air show and get copies of the free brochures these companies hand out detailing their products and technology.
 :-\ :P
what the hell is a janes guide?!  I was just about to eat dinner and unwind, too...

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #224 on: July 24, 2013, 09:42:15 PM »
Yes indeed. Those who are still curious about many of the things the people who work in the defense industry are not allowed to talk about (because they signed NDAs and/or required special clearances to know about and could be jailed if they did talk about it) will just have to go to their nearest large public library and ask where the Jane's Guides are kept.

That, or attend a defense industry weapons or air show and get copies of the free brochures these companies hand out detailing their products and technology.
 :-\ :P

What I'd really like to know about are the systems NOT in Janes.

Anyways, back on track about Mr. Snowden...

http://www.zerohedge...rve-nsa-surveillance

Nope. Not gonna stop snooping. Can't do it. We're not moving along because YOU are the droids we are looking for! :P

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