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Last post Author Topic: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.  (Read 145909 times)

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #150 on: July 13, 2013, 08:20:08 AM »
The only ones here that are between a rock and a hard place are the US politicians

How little you know about US politicians and intel apparatchiks if you believe that makes any difference.

Squeeze slime between a rock and a hard place and it simply oozes out and then reconstitutes as a brand new puddle of slime.

 :P

Hahaha! :D

I must admit that I've had quite a few laughs at the insane lies coming out of so many mouths. The best ones are where they contradict themselves in the next sentence.

But yeah, slime... sigh... :(

Welcome to The Village, Mr. Snowden!. ;)

Nice one! :D

Can we just call him #6 from here on in? :)
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Shades

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #151 on: July 13, 2013, 03:16:24 PM »
Here are the ground rules for anything political or otherwise related to government:

http://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm


Although on the end, it appears to repeat itself...it is still an enlightening (and quire extensive) read.

sword

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #152 on: July 14, 2013, 03:55:28 PM »
Re. 40hz, Welcome to the Village, reply #149, 13 JUL:

“ The Prisoner” 1967-68, episode 6.
Who would believe that the villain in the plot could be a super computer,
doing military exercises, that promised to provide large quantities of
information, without any understanding or knowledge, through ‘Speedlearn’?
Or that the hero could be someone working in the intelligence community,
code name ZM73, who quits?

Carol Haynes

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #153 on: July 15, 2013, 11:27:12 AM »
Interesting/entertaining discussion on YoungTurks


40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #154 on: July 17, 2013, 08:10:02 AM »
From the "Now that you've finally got your hands on that ticking a-bomb, what do you plan on doing with it?" Department...

Pawn.jpg


I very insightful analysis of the issues and concerns surrounding the endgame.

Quote
What Happens When We Actually Catch Edward Snowden?

By David Pozen
Monday, July 15, 2013 at 9:56 AM


The United States is pressing hard to get hold of National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden. But if and when Snowden is apprehended, what then? This question deserves attention, too, because the denouement to this drama may be unpleasant not just for Snowden, but for his captors as well...

<more>

Full article may be found here.

 8)

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #155 on: July 17, 2013, 08:47:02 AM »
From the article:

Quote
One source of concern is the jury. Snowden says his leaks revealed an unconstitutional and undemocratic system of surveillance. Polls suggest that many Americans agree. Even if the judge instructs the jury to set aside its views on the rightness or wrongness of Snowden’s acts, there is no guarantee it will. Jurors might be tempted to acquit Snowden, not because they believe he is factually innocent but because they believe he was morally justified.

It has happened before—in England. In 1985, Clive Ponting looked destined for prison after leaking Ministry of Defence documents that called into question the official story of the Falklands War. Ponting fessed up to being the source. The jury voted to acquit him nevertheless, and in so doing helped catalyze a movement to liberalize the laws against unauthorized disclosures.

For a judge to instruct a jury like that is deceptive and criminal. Well, most judges regularly engage in criminal activity (fraud), but that's another story...

The formal phrase for that is "jury nullification". It's a well established part of common law. However, judges never instruct juries properly so it is rarely used - juries are rarely aware of their right to nullify. (The general concept is called "nullification" and in the US also extends to individual states to nullify any federal law - i.e. the 10th amendment.)

In short, any jury can find any defendant not guilty completely in contravention to whatever the law is. i.e. ALL juries can vote with their conscience. They are under ZERO obligation to listen to the judge's instructions.

So, if you are called to be a juror for let's say a marijuana possession charge, you can find the defendant not guilty irrespective of whatever the law is. (This applies to jurisdictions that are based on common law, and not something like Napoleonic law, etc. So, it includes Canada, the UK, Ireland, Australia, etc.)

If Snowden were brought to trial, and the jury were informed about their RIGHT to nullify, does anyone thing they'd convict him?

Well, if the prosecution used its infinite number of juror dismissal tickets to get the exact right jury to convict, then probably they would. Barring that gross abuse of power though, would a normal jury convict if they were informed of their right to nullify? I doubt it.

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Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

dr_andus

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #156 on: July 17, 2013, 08:58:00 AM »
Quote
What Happens When We Actually Catch Edward Snowden?
the denouement to this drama may be unpleasant not just for Snowden, but for his captors as well...

As I suggested earlier in the thread, it does not actually look like the US really wants to catch him and bring him back onto US soil, for the reasons now described in this article as well. So the tug-of-war with Russia over Snowden might be just a charade, to make it look like they're after him, while in the meantime increasing his chances of getting asylum elsewhere and keeping him away.

I wouldn't be surprised if they've actually explicitly agreed to play this game with Russia, judging from Putin's jovial statements on the matter in public. Putin gets a bit of domestic political capital out of it, while the US comes out looking stern but achieving its objective of not apprehending Snowden.

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #157 on: July 17, 2013, 10:57:02 AM »
Full article may be found here.

Sigh... Might as well...

The kind of utter nonsense in most articles like that is simply astounding. Here's a very brief quote and brief rip/rant...

Quote
Conspiracy theories and Big Brother fears always swirl at the margins of respectable opinion, threatening to go mainstream.

"Conspiracy theory" is a CIA psyop designed to marginalize anyone that does any homework. It has been extraordinarily effective. (You can search to verify that.)

So, we can effectively rewrite that quote as:

Quote
"The opinions of people that read and do their homework" always swirl at the margins of respectable opinion, threatening to go mainstream.

Shortening that somewhat...

Quote
"Informed people" always swirl at the margins of respectable opinion, threatening to go mainstream.

Do I need to elaborate? Probably a bit. (I'll keep it short.)

The author simply sickens me with his "at the margins of **respectable** opinion" silliness. He's attempting to sway opinion through some pretty low tactics. (I'll skip the argumentation theory/logic here as it's boring for most people.)

Search for some of these "conspiracy theories":


Ooops. They're all true and on record.

Why must unpleasant truth be such heresy?

Find out what questions you're not allowed to ask, and you're on the right trail.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #158 on: July 17, 2013, 11:15:15 AM »
^There's also something to be said for a "reality check."

The big problem with conspiracy theories in general is that they can (and are) used to explain any and everything through attributions of unproven causality.

then-a-miracle-occurs-cartoon.png

 ;) 8)

@Ren - did you actually read the entire article? Because I'm amazed the main thing you seem to have taken away from it was what you saw as a diss on conspiracy theories. That's awesome! ;D

tomos

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #159 on: July 17, 2013, 11:24:03 AM »
Do I need to elaborate? Probably a bit. (I'll keep it short.)

lol no you dont ;D -
actually you've made a good and valid point - and one that I agree with.
But:
although the article is written from a conservative perspective, I dont think that affects the validity of it's content.
Tom

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #160 on: July 17, 2013, 11:29:02 AM »
The big problem with conspiracy theories in general is that they can (and are) used to explain any and everything through attributions of unproven causality.


In general? Huh? You're obviously looking at some pretty wacky stuff then. We're not reading the same "conspiracy theories" at all.

The fact remains that there are countless "conspiracy theories" out there that are proven facts. Not matter for debate.

Sure, reptilian aliens are interesting, and god knows what, but that doesn't mean that the US military didn't plan to stage false flag events in order to invade Cuba. (Northwoods)

There is a very serious disconnect with reality for those pundits that keep screaming about "conspiracy theories".


@Ren - did you actually read the entire article? Because I'm amazed the main thing you seem to have taken away from it was what you saw as a diss on conspiracy theories. That's awesome! ;D

Yes. I did read it. Did you want me to continue and have this sent to the Basement? :P

I picked a couple things that were just completely insane, but not things that would get this thread sent off to the Basement. I'm really, really trying very, very hard here... Give me a break, eh? :P :D

(I read far too much on politics and economics to honestly comment on a lot of things here. Really - I'm trying very hard!!! I try to keep it light and entertaining - think of me as your comic relief! :D Sometimes at least...)
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Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #161 on: July 17, 2013, 11:35:50 AM »
although the article is written from a conservative perspective, I dont think that affects the validity of it's content.

If you mean that it still stinks like an unkept outhouse, then I'd agree with you. ;)

But I don't want to rip on it too much as I'd end up sacrificing sacred cows. (Start a thread in the Basement to continue if you like.)

Well, that and I'm somewhat lazy too. Also got things to do like get back to work on one of those uber-popular MMORPGs that everyone loves to play. (Dammit! DC is just bloody addictive!)
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

tomos

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #162 on: July 17, 2013, 12:01:58 PM »
^well, if someone coming from - we could call it "that point of view" -
if they think that:

1) a jury might aquit him
2) the public are alienated, and dubious about NSA, secrecy, government even

I dont see why I should disagree :)
Tom

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #163 on: July 17, 2013, 01:21:40 PM »
The fact remains that there are countless "conspiracy theories" out there that are proven facts. Not matter for debate.

You're talking chalk and cheese here.

However, branding something as "a conspiracy" in order to deflect attention away from there being corroborating evidence to support its claims is no less a pile of dingo's kidneys than insisting something is "a conspiracy" to deflect attention away from its being an assertion without adequate corroborating evidence.

'Conspiracy' has become an intellectually bankrupt term. Right up there with 'organic' and 'green' IMHO. Let's stop using it.
 :)

superboyac

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #164 on: July 17, 2013, 03:20:35 PM »
The fact remains that there are countless "conspiracy theories" out there that are proven facts. Not matter for debate.

You're talking chalk and cheese here.

However, branding something as "a conspiracy" in order to deflect attention away from there being corroborating evidence to support its claims is no less a pile of dingo's kidneys than insisting something is "a conspiracy" to deflect attention away from its being an assertion without adequate corroborating evidence.

'Conspiracy' has become an intellectually bankrupt term. Right up there with 'organic' and 'green' IMHO. Let's stop using it.
 :)
I've JUST recently decided to stop discussing any kind of controversial subjects with most people because as soon as somebody seems to bring up an unpopular stance, the 'conspiracy" word is thrown around by a lot of people and it deflects all discussion of facts and objectivity.  Very similar to how the racist term typically used to be thrown around.  And I'm tired of it, and don't care to discuss it with people anymore.  The media doesn't help at all, in fact, they make it worse.  Take the latest cases: trayvon martin and this snowden.  All the important details are not known to anybody, and for sure the media is not giving away any details.  Yet, they expect people to make up their minds and take sides?!  You kidding me?!  And what's worse is that people ARE making up their minds!  So i'm done.  I'm just a spectator at this point.

I forgot the official latin word for this thing in debate terminology, but it's bully convincing.  "I don't believe you, I need more facts."  "What are you, an idiot?!  get outta my face moron." debate over.  great.

superboyac

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #165 on: July 17, 2013, 03:21:45 PM »
ad hominem
beat you (whoever you are) to it!

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #166 on: July 17, 2013, 08:11:23 PM »
In another Holy Crap moment over this...

NSA affair: Ex-President Carter condemns U.S. snooping

this particular quote is one of the main reasons that he is not well liked in Washington... he's too honest.

Quote
Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter in the wake of the NSA Scandals criticized the American political system. "America has no functioning democracy," Carter said Tuesday at a meeting of the "Atlantic Bridge" in Atlanta.

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #167 on: July 18, 2013, 01:01:42 AM »
The fact remains that there are countless "conspiracy theories" out there that are proven facts. Not matter for debate.

You're talking chalk and cheese here.

However, branding something as "a conspiracy" in order to deflect attention away from there being corroborating evidence to support its claims is no less a pile of dingo's kidneys than insisting something is "a conspiracy" to deflect attention away from its being an assertion without adequate corroborating evidence.

No argument there.

'Conspiracy' has become an intellectually bankrupt term. Right up there with 'organic' and 'green' IMHO. Let's stop using it.

But that is a bit of a problem. How can you stop using the term when every time you attempt to bring up a few uncomfortable facts, someone starts screaming "CONSPIRACY"? Buddy boy in the article does exactly that.

So we end up with a situation where we've got this horrible abuse of language that has emptied word of any useful meaning, and we're still stuck with them.

I suppose you could simply talk about "plotting in secret", which is explicit/accurate in a literal sense, but it won't cover "conspiracies" that are publicly out in the open. (I'll skip examples for the sake of not stirring anything up.)

But, it seems like there's quite a bit of debasement of the language. Lots of examples out there. C. S. Lewis walks through the example of "gentleman" in an essay and talks about how that word was debased until it had no real meaning anymore. It's rather annoying as it destroys part of your ability to communicate effectively.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #168 on: July 18, 2013, 02:05:16 AM »
I was closing tabs when I noticed something in the LawFareBlog page...

Inconvenient!
Screenshot - 7_18_2013 , 4_54_26 PM.pngKnight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.

The inconvenient evidence:

WHICH PATH TO PERSIA?
Options for a New American
Strategy toward Iran

* 06_iran_strategy.pdf (1202.37 kB - downloaded 64 times.)

Table of Contents:

Quote
Introduction
The Trouble with Tehran: U.S. Policy Options toward Iran . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.
Part I
Dissuading Tehran: The Diplomatic Options . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21
Chapter 1: An Offer Iran Shouldn’t Refuse: Persuasion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23
Chapter 2: Tempting Tehran: The Engagement Option . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 42
Part II
Disarming Tehran: The Military Options . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 61
Chapter 3: Going All the Way: Invasion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 63
Chapter 4: The Osiraq Option: Airstrikes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 74
Chapter 5: Leave it to Bibi: Allowing or Encouraging an
Israeli Military Strike . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 89
Part III
Toppling Tehran: Regime Change . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 101
Chapter 6: The Velvet Revolution: Supporting a Popular Uprising . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 103
Chapter 7: Inspiring an Insurgency: Supporting Iranian Minority
And Opposition Groups . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .113
Chapter 8: The Coup: Supporting a Military Move Against the Regime . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 122
Part IV
Deterring Tehran: Containment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 129
Chapter 9: Accepting the Unacceptable: Containment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 131
Conclusion
Crafting an Integrated Iran Policy: Connecting the Options . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 145

Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

tomos

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #169 on: July 18, 2013, 07:12:20 AM »
Okay, maybe I made a mistake -
maybe I should not have replied after you said:
Start a thread in the Basement to continue if you like.
- that was good advice :D

I would have thought though, that if you disagreed with the content of the article, that you could say that here. In this thread. All of this about the site - while I can very much relate to it, and find it nice and juicy - and sure, it gives us context - but it's irrelevant in terms of rebutting the content of the article.
What you're doing doesnt seem to me that different from someone looking at, say, a libertarian site, and saying - oh, look, they're libertarians - everything they say is dodgy biased propoganda.
Tom

40hz

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #170 on: July 18, 2013, 07:31:27 AM »
But, it seems like there's quite a bit of debasement of the language. Lots of examples out there. C. S. Lewis walks through the example of "gentleman" in an essay and talks about how that word was debased until it had no real meaning anymore. It's rather annoying as it destroys part of your ability to communicate effectively.

Yup. Orwell wrote a whole novel around that.  :o

Too bad it was taken to heart and is "now being used as a blueprint" as so many have have observed.
 :-\

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #171 on: July 18, 2013, 08:23:00 AM »
I would have thought though, that if you disagreed with the content of the article, that you could say that here. In this thread. All of this about the site - while I can very much relate to it, and find it nice and juicy - and sure, it gives us context - but it's irrelevant in terms of rebutting the content of the article.
What you're doing doesnt seem to me that different from someone looking at, say, a libertarian site, and saying - oh, look, they're libertarians - everything they say is dodgy biased propoganda.

I can be much softer that way. I went on a bit about 2 things in the article, but I'm simply not going to post more about it here. (Mostly here) I'd rather simply stick to lobbing slow softballs, cracking jokes, and ridiculing articles/sites/authors/etc. That way I can avoid anything religious/political and still have some fun. :D
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #172 on: July 18, 2013, 08:46:19 AM »
No love for JC?  The most honest president we've had in the last half-century gets no respect.

(And 10 good things he did, even in spite of the propaganda about him as a president)

Renegade

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #173 on: July 18, 2013, 09:00:54 AM »
No love for JC?  The most honest president we've had in the last half-century gets no respect.

(And 10 good things he did, even in spite of the propaganda about him as a president)

Unfortunately, I don't speak German, and was unable to read the article.

Being illiterate sucks. :(

But for that "10 top" thing... it goes wildly off-topic from this thread, so would probably be better in the Basement. (I have nothing polite to say about #2.)
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

wraith808

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Re: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
« Reply #174 on: July 18, 2013, 10:12:17 AM »
Unfortunately, I don't speak German, and was unable to read the article.

Oh... I just take for granted translation.  :-[

Translated Version
NSA affair: Ex-President Carter condemned U.S. snooping

By Gregor Peter Schmitz in Atlanta

Ex-President Carter: "The invasion of privacy has gone too far"

The Obama administration tried to placate Europe's anger over spying programs. Not as ex-President Jimmy Carter: The Democrat attacked the U.S. intelligence sharp. The disclosure by whistleblowers Snowden was "useful."

Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter was in the wake of the NSA Spähskandals criticized the American political system. "America has no functioning democracy," Carter said Tuesday at a meeting of the "Atlantic Bridge" in Atlanta.

Previously, the Democrat had been very critical of the practices of U.S. intelligence. "I think the invasion of privacy has gone too far," Carter told CNN. "And I think that is why the secrecy was excessive." Overlooking the NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden said Carter, whose revelations were long "likely to be useful because they inform the public."
Carter has repeatedly warned that the United States sharply declined due to excessive restriction of civil rights, their moral authority. Last year he wrote in an article in the "New York Times", new U.S. laws "never before seen breach our privacy by the government" allowed the.

Carter was the 39th President of the United States, who ruled from 1977 until 1981. During his tenure, he tried to align U.S. foreign policy that is more about human rights - after his retirement from active politics for his humanitarian work, he received the 2002 Nobel Peace Prize .

In Atlanta, he also expressed his overall pessimistic about the global situation. There is currently no reason for him to be optimistic, Carter said, referring to the situation in Egypt, which had fallen into a military dictatorship. He also lamented the growing political divide in the United States, the excessive influence of money in U.S. election campaigns and the confusing American election rules. The ex-president whose "Carter Center" operates worldwide including election monitoring, announced skeptical whether the United States, the standard that applies when reviewing the Center of elections might be fulfilled.
As a bright spot, however, Carter called the triumph of modern technology that would have caused some of the countries of the Arab Spring of democratic progress. Exactly these developments but are endangered by the NSA Spähskandal as major U.S. Internet platforms such as Google or Facebook lose credibility worldwide.

(On another point... the bit about ruler is funny.  Translations are FUN!)