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Author Topic: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?  (Read 7632 times)

mouser

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AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« on: April 26, 2006, 01:36:57 AM »
We created an Autohotkey fund that people can donate to with their DonationCredits (click gold coin at top of page), because there are quite a few people on this forum who use Autohotkey, especially Skrommel who uses it for all his One Hour Software Coding Snacks.

I've been reminded that Autohotkey uses significant amount of code and tools (for example the ahk->exe compiler) from AutoIt.

I know there is some bad blood between ahk and autoit and i don't want to stir up a hornets nest, but since both developers accept donations, i'd like to propose that we split the $100 donation (when the fund goal is reached) between the two developers, and donate $50 to each.

Does anyone object to this?

« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 01:39:08 AM by brotherS »

brotherS

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2006, 01:43:23 AM »
Does anyone object to this?
I do!  :down:

My reasons:
- while AHK is based on the old AutoIt code, the AHK author spends lots of time implementing new features virtually every day
- the AHK forum gives better newbie support
- 99.7% of the Coding Snacks on DC are coded with AHK instead of AutoIt

JoTo

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2006, 02:03:17 AM »
I think it is good to split the pot.

1. AHK based on old code from AutoIT but it IS definitely based upon.

2. Some code and parts of AHK bases on the NEWER AutoIT3 Code as well (as long it was open source) not only on the old AutoIT2 Code.

3. Some of the Ideas that are now in AHK is from the new AutoIT3 even it is implemented in own Code of the AHK-Author (i.E. DLLCall). Sure there are many features in AHK that have nothing to do with AutoIT but there are definitely some that has to do.

4. I, for example, use AutoIt as well. Every program has it advantages and disadvantages. There is definitely no "one and only". Its every time a question what to use for what task.

5. Cant agree with brotherS that the AutoIT Forum/Mailinglist is less helpful or kind than the AHK one. My experience tells me, that Jonathan, Larry and many other regulars there ALWAYS are willing to help out when kindly asked for and the question is in a well formed state. No bad results for me from that side.

Maybe we find another split point, because more people here use AHK than AutoIT. But splitting in itself i think is a good idea.

How about: 30% AutoIt / 70% AHK.

Maybe than we all can live with it and sleep well.

Just my 2ct.
JoTo

wr975

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2006, 02:24:50 AM »
I object.  :down:

I donated for AHK, not AutoIt.

As for the "stolen" source code (there're many threads about this elsewhere, no need to start here again):



Suggestion: Create a new fund for AutoIt + give users the possibility to transfer spent DonationCredits from AHK to AutoIt (like via Email request.)

lanux128

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2006, 02:36:33 AM »
I object.  :down:

I donated for AHK, not AutoIt.
...

basically i'm impartial on this but wr975's point hit me on the head. the good folks here at DC had donated thinking that the dough will go to AHK's development team. So it's a bit like moving the goal-post now if we turn around and say "let's split".

so i'd like to suggest that we proceed with this fund as originally planned but there can always be another pot for Auto-It...


mouser

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2006, 02:41:08 AM »
Quote
basically i'm impartial on this but wr975's point hit me on the head. the good folks here at DC had donated thinking that the dough will go to AHK's development team. So it's a bit like moving the goal-post now if we turn around and say "let's split".

yes this is exactly why I asked.

Ok, there is no point in continuing this discussion - your voices have been heard and there is enough objection that we will *not* split the fund.

Instead, we will leave the fund as a pure ahk donation, and dc management will independently make a donation to autoit to reflect the fact that AutoIt deserves some reward as well.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 03:19:34 AM by mouser »

Cpilot

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2006, 03:07:47 AM »
Quote
Ok, there is no point in continuing this discussion
Actually I think this thread has had too short a life span to come to any consensus, my feeling is that if there was no Autoit there wouldn't be an AHK. To donate to a project that owes it's very existence to the other only is IMO short changing the innovator and giving credit to the usurper.

I vote split the pot.

I believe the topic needs to live a little longer for a true consensus.  :Thmbsup:
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 03:09:24 AM by Cpilot »

mouser

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2006, 03:14:27 AM »
i'll leave the thread open of course; however it's problematic to change the fund now that people have already pledged money to it and objected, which is why i think we found a good alternative solution:

DC itself will donate to autoit (i guess a dollar-for-dollar) matching donation. so both developers will get a donation.

I think this is merited based on the acknowledgement by autohotkey developers that ahk uses substantial work from autoit developers. From help file:
Quote
Acknowledgements
A special thanks to Jonathan Bennett, whose generosity in releasing AutoIt v2 as free software in 1999 served as an inspiration and time-saver for myself and many others worldwide. In addition, many of AutoHotkey's enhancements to the AutoIt v2 command set, as well as the Window Spy and the script compiler, were adapted directly from the AutoIt v3 source code. So thanks to Jon and the other AutoIt authors for those as well.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 03:20:32 AM by mouser »

zridling

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2006, 04:30:30 AM »
I object, too. AutoHotkey deserves the money because it is actively developed and it's a program even dummies like me can figure out. Let those who love AutoIT donate directly to it, or start a separate fund.

Ampa

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2006, 06:19:38 AM »
For the record I fall on the "don't split" side of the line.

brotherS

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2006, 06:33:22 AM »
DC itself will donate to autoit
Nothing to say against that.

Quote
(i guess a dollar-for-dollar) matching donation
For all the reasons (and more) listed here, please don't match it 1:1 - makes me feel bad that the more I give to AHK the more DC *has* to give too.

Carol Haynes

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2006, 06:39:29 AM »
How about having a follow up AutoIt fund?

momonan

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2006, 07:15:16 AM »
I don't think we should panic about getting something to AutoIt.  The night's young.  Let's just create another fund for AutoIt -- either to run at the same time or to run when the AHK fund goal has been reached.
When you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning - Catherine Aird

wr975

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2006, 08:07:29 AM »
I think the whole issue undervalues AHK and the work which went into it the last past years. I mean, if I'd donate to XviD nobody would get the idea to split it and give half to DivX. As AHK emerged nobody thought it would get more popular than (the more powerful) AutoIt. Well, it happened. Since it doesn't remove any references to AutoIt, a lot of people who use AHK hear from AutoIt the first time and of course try it. I think that's a fair trade for the few % of used AutoIt source code + modified AutoIt programs.

Anyway, my last words about this: It's not up the donater to decide who should get something, but the one who receives the donation. If the author of AHK feels AutoIt deserves something, he should give some of the donation money he receives.

kfitting

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2006, 08:10:15 AM »
Let me just say that the "AutoHotKey VS AutoIt" stuff is ridiculous.  They are similar tools designed to suit different people.  Both sides should get over it.  I use either tool depending on what I'm doing.  I'm not saying anything about the donation here, I just think it's ridiculous that people get all hot and bothered that "their preferred" tool somehow doesn't get the justice "they feel" it deserves.

Kevin

mouser

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2006, 10:11:39 AM »
This thread has really goteen a lot of interest; hopefully it will serve to make people think and not aggravate people.

Let me take a minute to summarize what I've gathered from reading the autohotkey and autoit forums and my reasoning behind the idea of making a donation to AutoIt.

Autohotkey started out as an open source clone of AutoIt v2.  It was developed by a person who was involved in the autoit forums and includes substantial code from autoit (whose source was freely available at the time).

The two projects began to diverge and now are independent projects.  But autohotkey still uses quite a bit of the free code and tools developed by AutoIt developers.  Both are still free programs (though i think only Autohotkey is formally open source).

There are some hurt feelings on the part of the AutoIt developers and users.  I think mainly because Autohotkey seems to have benefitted from the hard work of the AutoIt developers; many AutoIt developers/users seem to feel that not enough credit was given to AutoIt by Autohotkey developer, and that Autohotkey was making a concerted effort to post about ahk on autoit forum an elsewhere in an attempt to get autoit users to swtich to autohotkey.


I guess I can empathize a bit with the AutoIt developers. I have a few (not very popular) open source projects and I can see how hurtfull it would feel if while I was working actively on the code someone came along and made a new fork of the code and began work on a new project that was meant to be a replacement for my original program.

I would wish, as the autoit people seem to have wished, that instead that programmer had been helping to make my program better rather than branched off into a competing product.

That's not at all to say that the Autohotkey person did something wrong at all by making autohotkey.  there are tons of reasons why makeing a new product might be better for everyone, including the fact that autoit may not have stayed free, wheras autohotkey is formally open source, and the fact that the Autohotkey developer obviously was extremely active and wanted to pursue new features without having to get permission and have his decisions go through the approval proccess by autoit developers with whom he might not always agree.

I think the active development of autohotkey has proved that the developer of ahk deserves a huge amount of credit, and reading both forums i get the feeling that the people behind both programs are good, honorable, smart people who both deserve support from their users.  And that everyone has benefitted from the work on both products.  They probably both spur each other on and keep each other from resting on their laurels.

My desire to give a donation on the behalf of DC to AutoIt developers reflects the fact that, for a variety of reasons, Autohotkey has become known here on this forum, while AutoIt has not.  And I think AutoIt deserves some recognition from us, as it has received from Autohotkey developer, as being an important part of the development of Autohotkey.

I understand that people here who use Autohotkey want to support that program.  And it makes sense that AutoIt users should support their program, so in general it seems like it will work itself out.  But in this case I think fairness dictates that in the spirit of this site we make an attempt to recognize through our donations the contributions of AutoIt.  If AutoIt was a profitable company then I might not feel this way, but given that AutoIt is also a free/donationware program I think it deserves some recognition in the form of a donation from us.

It doesn't make sense to have an autoit fund because so few people here use autoit, which is kind of my point, that we should in fairness make an attempt to recognize that autohotkey uses pieces of autoit and so autoit deserves some of the credit given to autohotkey.

Maybe a matching donation is not quite right since their aren't many autoit users here.  Let's do this, when the fund reaches $100, then your donations will be made to autohotkey on behalf of the dc members.  then dc itself will donate half as much $50 to autoit in recognition of the work of the autoit developers.  I don't see how you can go wrong with that.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 10:56:26 AM by mouser »

jgpaiva

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2006, 10:45:39 AM »
I see you made some interesting investigation. I'm glad, as I was myself also thinking what was the full story.

Maybe a matching donation is not quite right since their aren't many autoit users here.  Let's do this, when the fund reaches $100, then your donations will be made to autohotkey on behalf of the dc members.  then dc itself will donate half as much $50 to autoit in recognition of the work of the autoit developers.  I don't see how you can go wrong with that.
After reading your explantion, and the opinions of the users on this thread, my opinion is that is the best way to go. Although i'm not for the 50/50 donation, I can understand that autoit also deserves recognition. Good decision! :up:

kfitting

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2006, 10:52:08 AM »
Well said mouser.

Kevin

JoTo

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Re: AutoHotkey fund idea - split donation with AutoIt?
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2006, 06:30:03 AM »
mouser have you ever thought about going into diplomacy work? :-)

I can really live with your plan. So i'll go and donate now for AHK Fund.

And to be clear: I never said, that AHK STOLE Code (as cited above). All AHK is absolutely legal in my opinion. And i'm not against AHK, i'm only ALSO pro AutoIt.

Thanks mouser for such a salomonic solution.

CU
JoTo