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Last post Author Topic: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door  (Read 10981 times)

40hz

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2012, 07:46:23 AM »
At the risk of being dubbed completely paranoid, I think this is just a further manifestation of a global corporate and governmental move towards removing unrestricted general computing capabilities from the hands of their customers and citizens.

Unrestricted, general-purpose operating systems and hardware have been identified as "disruptive technologies."

And now that even the most slow-witted and Luddite legislator has finally realized that this "computer stuff" ("Don't understand it m'self, but you should see me grandson on one o' them things!") is dangerous for the current status quo. So a decision has been made that it's time for it to go away. But there is also the realization that this will have to be handled "delicately." Softly, softly - catchee monkey as the saying goes.

Right now, that is being attempted via corporate fiat rather than direct legislation since most western governments lack the constitutional authority to pass such legislation.

Things like Win8-Metro, iOS, walled garden ecosystems, UEFI/SecureBoot, app stores, data silos, draconian IP laws and enforcement are all manifestations of an unstated policy to remove this technology from the masses - while at the same time making it look like greater "personal liberation" is taking place.

If you don't believe this technology is considered a clear and present danger to the power elites found within most major corporations and government, look no further than how the US/NZ governments handled the Megaupload/Kim Dotcom affair. Anybody who considers such behavior a police incident needs to think again. That was a multinational coordinated military operation. One that had more in common with the way we would deal with a terrorist cell than it had with arresting somebody for (allegedly) willfully hosting illegal copies of copyrighted material. If that doesn't send the world a clear signal about how this "stuff" is being viewed by those currently in power, I don't know what possibly could. Especially considering how the handling of the Dotcom arrest was specifically intended to send a message to the entire online community.

The message itself was very simple: Know your place.

The subtext in the message was simpler still: Or else.

 :-\
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 09:08:07 AM by 40hz »

tomos

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2012, 07:59:23 AM »
1) I really dont see business allowing the desktop be taken away from us (for whatever reason).

2) I see business as being a big enough market that it will be worthwhile for MS to continue supporting and developing the desktop.
Admittedly it will not have the priority it had before for MS, and might not have as much software available if mobile becomes a bigger and more attractive market for developers.
Tom

mahesh2k

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2012, 08:49:34 AM »
On locked scale and the patent fights, I think apple wins any day. I don't think microsoft will be as successful like them with appstore and stuff. It took apple 3 years to push people for dependency on ITunes store and app store. MS can't push people that quickly with Windows 8. It will take some years and some biased media news to push people to use MS app store for purchase.

Depends how quickly major developers make the move to the new interface and the AppStore. Utlimately if not-Metro works as well as some think it will on tablets there is a good chance MS could gain market share rapidly - most of the reviews see a lot of advantages of not-Metro over iOS - and for me not having to depend on iTunes is a major draw. Even Apple fans who use Windows boxes hate iTunes on Windows. I think Apple deliberately make it suck to try and move people to Apple hardware.

It's not about developers. Developers come and go from any platform depending on their revenue stream. Leaving CC details in Itunes and in MS app store will be totally different and that's where I think makes difference for anyone who tries to force app store stuff on customers. Besides MS caters customers in between apple( shut up and take my money type) and Linux/nix (I want to keep control over where i spend type folks). Next step for MS is definitely sticking with popular hardware developer. In case of mobile, they picked up nokia which was necessary for nokia to remain in competition as well. Their app store sucked because fanboys and media didn't lifted it but with MS on side, I am sure new app store under nokia will be viewed seriously by buyers. So far Windows 8 offers nothing new compared to the windows 7 that makes you want to switch desperately. And people are less likely to move from one OS to another in this economy.


edbro

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2012, 09:32:44 AM »
I have been using Win 8 for quite some time now as I am a Technet member. I have to say that I still find the workflow confusing and a bit cumbersome. Metro wouldn't be so bad if you could just stay there but all my apps dump me in the desktop when they are done. The user has to switch back and forth themselves. As a consequence, I like to stay with the desktop as I'm more familiar with it. Also, you have more control over how your programs launch and close from the desktop. I can launch with arguments from the desktop but not Metro.

My impression is that Microsoft feels that PCs are on the way out and tablets and other devices are the future. They have compromised the desktop experience in an effort to position themselves for the future. I do have an iPad and love it but I will not give up my PCs any time in the near future.

wraith808

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2012, 09:54:04 AM »
People talk about MS trying to be like Apple- but on the desktop, MacOS isn't locked down, nor confined to the AppStore.  In fact, several of their largest software providers don't use the App Store at all.  Just thought I'd point that out.

Carol Haynes

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2012, 11:02:47 AM »
People talk about MS trying to be like Apple- but on the desktop, MacOS isn't locked down, nor confined to the AppStore.  In fact, several of their largest software providers don't use the App Store at all.  Just thought I'd point that out.

But how long before the iOS and MacOSX merger that is evolving?

If Apple have any sense they will trumpet themselves as the open platform desktop option and maybe start reducing prices to compete with business Windows boxes - as time goes on they will clean up. IMHO MS are going to back themselves into a corner if they aren't careful.

40hz

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2012, 11:08:35 AM »
People talk about MS trying to be like Apple- but on the desktop, MacOS isn't locked down, nor confined to the AppStore.  In fact, several of their largest software providers don't use the App Store at all.  Just thought I'd point that out.

Yes, but Apple's latest OSX (Mountain Lion) is only available via download from Apple's company store. And OSX is also restricted to the AppStore and "signed" applications by default - although Apple currently does provide an opt-out switch. (No word if that's something they will always allow however.)

Apple has also repeatedly stated that one of its goals is to completely eliminate using optical drives in their Macintosh product line. (Tech business analysts think that's being driven more by Apple wanting to get out from under the significant licensing fees Sony is charging them for their Blu-Ray drives than it is for lock-in reasons - despite what the conspiracy and rumor mills have been saying.)

So...OS available as direct download only from the company store...customer must opt out of the default "authorized software source" restrictions...plans to eliminate optical media ASAP...

I still think the handwriting is on the wall for OSX. :tellme:

--------------------

Addendum: There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the idea behind app stores. They're incredibly convenient and useful even if the basic concept was lifted whole cloth from Linux and its distro repositories.

I happen to like having software available for download. And I really appreciate how the more responsible publishers maintain full registration details in an online customer profile. Especially in my line of work where I have to deal with clients who routinely misplace media, serial numbers, and activation keys. It's great to be able to be able to re-download and easily reactivate a purchased software title following a machine move or disk crash.

What I object to is when it's implemented as a closed ecosystem like Apple has done with iOS - or in the way Microsoft is hinting it plans to for Metro apps. At the very least there should be an official opt-out mechanism so you don't need to resort to jailbreaking hacks in order to gain full control of your device.

And I don't care what the license that came with the device says - if I had to buy it with my own money, than it's my friggin' device. And you and your 100+ page license be damned.

If you're only renting or licensing it to me, then do what my cable service provider does - give me the hardware needed to use the service (since I'm locked into a multi-year contract anyway) and charge me $5 a month rent like they do to use it. I'll happily return it "in good condition" when the new model you want me to use becomes available. Heck...I'll even come down and do it personally. :mrgreen:

But please - don't sock me with $400 up front and then try to tell me it's still your device. :P
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 12:03:51 PM by 40hz »

wraith808

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2012, 11:24:41 AM »
And OSX is also restricted to the AppStore and "signed" applications by default

Where is that?  I haven't opted out of anything, and I can run unsigned OSS on my box just fine, so I'm not so sure that this is true.  About half of what I have is App Store, and the other half is stuff I've downloaded through several different outlets and installed and run from DMGs.  If they aren't signed, it asks you before running, but other than that, it works fine.

40hz

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2012, 11:47:02 AM »
Where is that?  I haven't opted out of anything, and I can run unsigned OSS on my box just fine, so I'm not so sure that this is true.

My understanding was that it ships that way for all fresh installations. Perhaps Apple relented somewhere along the line about this? I do remember seeing Gatekeeper ask if I wanted to allow App Store only, App Store + Signed, or Unrestricted when I did the install. The supplied default was Mac App Store only.  - although that was a beta copy now that I'm thinking about it.

Did you drop Mountain Lion on top of an existing version of OSX or did you do a virgin install? If an overwrite it might have picked up your earlier preference which was unrestricted by default prior to Mountain Lion.

----
Addendum:

OK...found a picture up on the web of what I remember seeing. It looked like this except the radio button was default set to Mac App Store until I specifically chose the "from anywhere" option:

gatekkeeper.pngNeowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 11:57:18 AM by 40hz »

wraith808

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2012, 01:52:09 PM »
I've never seen that!  I'll take a look.  I don't really find this any more intrusive than UAC truth be told, which also happens very often on the mac, which took be aback a bit.  As long as they have the ability, I don't think it's a problem- its when they take away the ability... though I guess that's what you're talking about- that this is the next step.  I think it would be a lot nicer if they changed it from allow to ask, i.e. the way that I've seen it, i.e. I download the app and it asks me because it doesn't know if it's ok.  That seems a better approach than to outright disallow.

And yes, mine wasn't a fresh install.  Along those same lines, I really don't see the problem with not selling the upgrade outside of the app store, especially if it allows them to cut out some of the price.  You have to admit that the price for the upgrade is dirt cheap- I wonder if that's what's behind it.

40hz

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2012, 05:40:33 PM »
You have to admit that the price for the upgrade is dirt cheap- I wonder if that's what's behind it.

Maybe we should ask Microsoft? ;D The Win 8 upgrade price is dirt cheap too. Last I checked the Pro upgrade was $40 for XP/Vista/7 users.

I think these two would rather sacrifice some money near term in order to move the bulk of their customers over to their latest and greatest. What better way than to offer a very compelling price for the upgrade. Both companies have plenty of cash so they can afford it. Makes sense to clear out the older versions from a tech support perspective. And it would certainly make life easier for their software developers. Good for PR purposes too.

If Microborg wasn't going in the direction they were going with Win 8, they'd already have my check in hand. But then again, if they weren't, they probably wouldn't be offering W8 (pronounced "wait") at $40 either.
 8)

worstje

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2012, 06:11:33 PM »
I personally think Microsoft is making a gigantic mistake. The majority of workplaces need real computers, and not tablets. Or rather, they need keyboard and mouse; a tablet is simply too cumbersome to type with, and a touch screen keeps getting dirty, smudgy and is generally hostile to anything that's not a cleanroom.

Tablets may be nice for consumers to read books, view train/bus information or play leisure games. Smartphones are useful for people who need to communicate small things on location (mail men for example). But the bulk still happens on machines that are optimized for receiving input. Tablets are too awkward. Phones are even worse.

If this continues, I see Ubuntu or another Linux platform really taking off in the upcoming years. The big players are shafting the users that need to stuff get done, and once people switch to Linux, they can stay there indefinitely. Microsoft especially is an idiot; they get so many Windows licenses that make them tons of $$$, simply because people need them to do their work. Once people switch to OSS, they'll start losing that, and I can already hear the complaints coming.

Each device needs to be optimized for its own purpose and the input it receives. Don't put stupid tablet UI on a desktop; big screens are for consuming a lot of information quickly, and mice are heavily dependant on the infinite zones that are the corners and edges of the screen (which are now fucked with slide out menus). MS had to learn that lesson once upon a time with the Start button, but apparently they've forgotten it as they are now making the 'Close Window' cross a pain to hit.

If they want to make the interfaces look similar, so everything feels familiar and known to users, that is fine. Traffic authorities do the same thing with traffic lights, sign colours and fonts and all that stuff. But you don't seem them throwing round-abouts on every highway exit because having the same sort of roundabout everywhere makes stuff simpler for drivers.

Form and function, not fluffy and frustrating. Thx.

(Sorry, I needed to get this off my chest.)

40hz

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2012, 06:14:17 PM »
^Hopefully not Ubuntu. Mark Shuttleworth seems intent on taking his once "most popular of all distros" down  a path as similar as he can get to the one being taken by Microsoft and Apple.
 8)

superboyac

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2012, 11:43:30 PM »
I feel like in 10 years, most of us here on dc are going to be using some kind of linux based build your own OS type of thing.  If the big boys, Apple and MS, keep going towards closed ecosystems, and linux continues with all those distros (and more to come probably), then eventually we're just going to be using our own OS's, and hopefully the software will be able to work across all of them.  Or maybe we'll be building our own software also?  Nah...software will have to work with all distros, and users build the distros.

Now I know most of you are thinking this is the way linux works already.  But I'm talking about making it more easy.  Like, I pick the features I want in a distro, click a button, and get an iso file.  Then, all the software i come across will work also with a button or something.  Once we get to that point, you can probably say goodbye to ms and apple for those of us still hanging on to the 90s Windows methods.

TaoPhoenix

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2012, 12:27:31 AM »
I feel like in 10 years, most of us here on dc are going to be using some kind of linux based build your own OS type of thing.  If the big boys, Apple and MS, keep going towards closed ecosystems, and linux continues with all those distros (and more to come probably), then eventually we're just going to be using our own OS's, and hopefully the software will be able to work across all of them.  Or maybe we'll be building our own software also?  Nah...software will have to work with all distros, and users build the distros.

Now I know most of you are thinking this is the way linux works already.  But I'm talking about making it more easy.  Like, I pick the features I want in a distro, click a button, and get an iso file.  Then, all the software i come across will work also with a button or something.  Once we get to that point, you can probably say goodbye to ms and apple for those of us still hanging on to the 90s Windows methods.

Meanwhile, here it goes out on sale, so we'll go past "early reviews" and wait for the first wave of news stories of the fabled Customers. Any bets on how confused any of them will be?


I wouldn't want "build my own OS" because then it would be even less compatible with anything! Ubuntu is trying to become "The Linux" distro and shove everyone else out. Maybe they deserve to become the MySpace of Linux to learn their lesson.

We keep saying that MS is making mistakes, but are they in fact Too Big To Fail? They did such a good job with the evil lock-in that it's a MS vs The World metagame. So just on the crazy event that they finally make one mistake too many and implode and don't get bailed out, THAT's the marketplace I wanna see thrash it out. Whether for once the Linux community can get it together before Apple picks up all the pieces in a fire sale.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 12:34:26 AM by TaoPhoenix »

eleman

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2012, 03:29:33 PM »
I feel like in 10 years, most of us here on dc are going to be using some kind of linux based build your own OS type of thing.

My personal opinion is that we (the generation that remembers 1980s, the rise and fall of commodore et al., the rise of PC and MS) will continue using windows 7, or 9 (which will be the last one to offer a usable desktop mode if my conspiracy theories are correct) till we die. If I am still able to make well use of XP 11 years after its release, I will definitely be able to use 7 for at least 20 years. (Just like a friend of my father who still used a typewriter till his death in 2006.)

Some of us will be claiming in 2047 that MS really f.cked up with windows 18, and that this time people will really flock to linux, which -curiously- still won't have half decent drivers for nvidia video cards or a usable replacement for X.

The ithingie-facebook generation will not care, and each year they will be buying the new ipad n (35>n>25), which still won't have a USB port; or will be forced to use OEM loaded windows 18 and all the crapware installed by the OEMs, which will not be uninstallable on windows 18 ultimate pro HD OEM version. They won't care, because all they will be doing is to watch DRM locked expensive videos of mickey mouse, which will still be under copyright thanks to retroactive extensions of copyright term, twice, legislated with the intent of providing creative incentives for Walt Disney, who is still dead for 80 years. The videos will have lots and lots of advertisement by google, and they will be published by turnermsnbcaolfoxdisneywarner.

ed.: couldn't stop myself from ranting on copyrights.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 04:12:41 PM by eleman »

wraith808

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2012, 03:52:57 PM »
I feel like in 10 years, most of us here on dc are going to be using some kind of linux based build your own OS type of thing.

My personal opinion is that we (the generation that remembers 1980s, the rise and fall of commodore et al., the rise of PC and MS) will continue using windows 7, or 9 (which will be the last one to offer a usable desktop mode if my conspiracy theories are correct) till we die. If I am still able to make well use of XP 11 years after its release, I will definitely be able to use 7 for at least 20 years.

Some of us will be claiming in 2047 that MS really f.cked up with windows 18, and that this time people will really flock to linux, which -curiously- still won't have half decent drivers for nvidia video cards or a usable replacement for X.

The ithingie-facebook generation will not care, and each year they will be buying the new ipad n (35>n>25), which still won't have a USB port; or will be forced to use OEM loaded windows 18 and all the crapware installed by the OEMs, which will not be uninstallable on windows 18 ultimate pro HD OEM version. They won't care, because all they will be doing is to watch DRM locked expensive videos with lots of advertisement, published by turnermsnbcaolfoxwarner.

EPIC post. :)

40hz

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2012, 03:55:25 PM »
I wouldn't want "build my own OS" because then it would be even less compatible with anything!

But then again, if you're doing your own thing - and producing your own content (movies, music, books) - what difference would being incompatible be as long as the finished output gets written to an "industry" standard file format like DXF, RTF, PDF, JPG, PNG, MPEG-2, Ogg, or MP3?

You only need to be compatible if you're mostly a content consumer. Content creators (e.g. Hollywood SFX shops and studios) have traditionally used in-house developed and totally proprietary systems for their own projects. Why not us?
 8)

superboyac

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2012, 07:18:17 PM »
I wouldn't want "build my own OS" because then it would be even less compatible with anything!

But then again, if you're doing your own thing - and producing your own content (movies, music, books) - what difference would being incompatible be as long as the finished output gets written to an "industry" standard file format like DXF, RTF, PDF, JPG, PNG, MPEG-2, Ogg, or MP3?

You only need to be compatible if you're mostly a content consumer. Content creators (e.g. Hollywood SFX shops and studios) have traditionally used in-house developed and totally proprietary systems for their own projects. Why not us?
 8)

Hmm...good point.  And I'm learning that all that hollywood "magic" today is quite affordable and realistically possible by normal people.

Carol Haynes

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2012, 03:32:01 AM »
Because to build your own software from the ground up for large tasks is beyond most individuals, would take a life time and cost a fortune. You need software compatibility at the very least and the trouble with that is that is installation requirements need to be known in advance - unless you want Linux to descend into a much worse version of DLL hell that Windows has suffered over the years,

40hz

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2012, 07:29:34 AM »
Because to build your own software from the ground up for large tasks is beyond most individuals, would take a life time and cost a fortune.

Or be something that captures the imagination of many. (Like GNU/Linux or Raspberry Pi)

I don't think anybody seriously disputes the need for compatibility or standards. What is up for debate is exactly who gets to set those standards. And when it comes to the desktop, right now there are two monopolistic companies that effectively and unilaterally decide what goes and what doesn't. Not a good situation for the customer to be in from either a financial or a technical standpoint.
 8)

wraith808

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2012, 12:14:40 PM »
Considering that almost 20 years after 16 bit applications were phased out I can still run them on my PC (I have one from my first job), I don't think that backwards compatibility is going to be a problem with Windows as they know where their bread is buttered.  I really think that this is a move towards a hybrid OS rather than a move to close the total OS, which from a marketing standpoint I think was a bad idea, as it was the inception for a lot of people placing intentions on the company that might just not be there.

40hz

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2012, 01:25:47 PM »
...this is a move towards a hybrid OS rather than a move to close the total OS...

Yes. A hybrid steppingstone on the way to becoming a totally closed ecosystem.

Quote
... it was the inception for a lot of people placing intentions on the company that might just not be there.

Um...I don't know how much direct experience dealing with Microsoft you've had. But from my direct experience with them, it's obvious that their intention is, and has always been, to see the total dominance of Windows, and to have it running on everything in the world that has a CPU in it.

There was a time back in the late 80s and early 90s when they word "monopoly" was freely bandied about in Microsoft. It wasn't until later that Bill & Co. learned that corporations should never say the "M-word." Even in private.


wraith808

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2012, 01:39:57 PM »
...this is a move towards a hybrid OS rather than a move to close the total OS...

Yes. A hybrid steppingstone on the way to becoming a totally closed ecosystem.

Quote
... it was the inception for a lot of people placing intentions on the company that might just not be there.

Um...I don't know how much direct experience dealing with Microsoft you've had. But from my direct experience with them, it's obvious that their intention is, and has always been, to see the total dominance of Windows, and to have it running on everything in the world that has a CPU in it.

There was a time back in the late 80s and early 90s when they word "monopoly" was freely bandied about in Microsoft. It wasn't until later that Bill & Co. learned that corporations should never say the "M-word." Even in private.



I've had a lot of direct experience in dealing with Microsoft, even to the point of being in partner projects with them to get C# and .NET in shops; my training came directly from them on that regard as redmond engineers were in the same consulting gig that I was on, and we were flown to Redmond for training at MS's expense. 

I think that they are definitely ... aggressive, to put it lightly, especially in regards to increasing and holding on to the Windows market share.  However, I think that this may be a different animal, especially in the implementation of it.  But that's just my reading of the signs from my experience as from the developer end and how their treatment of developers has gone (and the fact that this would be a definite screwing of the developers at the most basic level), as yours are yours.  Only time will tell, and I suppose that's my point- to place intentions based on signs are to place opinions as fact.

40hz

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Re: Neowin reviews Windows 8 - Leave your pre-conceived notions at the door
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2012, 02:14:51 PM »
^My experience was primarily in sitting in contract negotiations to secure one of the earliest  examples of what would eventually become Microsoft's site licensing program.

I'd have to characterize their negotiating stance and overall attitude during that as well beyond anything to which the term 'aggressive' is normally applied.

They were easily the most belligerent and uncooperative, to say nothing of most evasive and mercurial negotiating "partner" I have ever seen. And I've been in on more contract negotiations and licensing deals than I'd care to remember.

I personally dislike Microsoft because I often detect a serious absence of candor in much of what they do and say. They are a fierce competitor - and equally dangerous to have as an ally if their agenda or priorities suddenly change. Because Microsoft has never been overly reluctant to kick anything (or anyone) to the curb if their own business interests were so much as inconvenienced by something they had previously agreed to.

At least that was my impression of them. And they've done nothing since that leads me to believe I've misjudged either them or their intentions.

 :)