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Author Topic: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle  (Read 4857 times)

wraith808

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Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« on: October 22, 2012, 08:27:35 AM »
I was actually thinking about going Amazon rather than B&N.  Not anymore...

The actual link seems to be overloaded or down, so this is a link to the google cache.

Quote
A couple of days a go, my friend Linn sent me an e-mail, being very frustrated: Amazon just closed her account and wiped her Kindle. Without notice. Without explanation. This is DRM at it’s worst.

Linn travels a lot and therefore has, or should I say had, a lot of books on her Kindle, purchased from Amazon. Suddenly, her Kindle was wiped and her account was closed. Being convinced that something wrong had happened, she sent an e-mail to Amazon, asking for help. This was the answer:

Dear Linn [last name],

My name is Michael Murphy and I represent Executive Customer Relations within Amazon.co.uk. One of our mandates is to address the most acute account and order problems, and in this capacity your account and orders have been brought to my attention.

We have found your account is directly related to another which has been previously closed for abuse of our policies. As such, your Amazon.co.uk account has been closed and any open orders have been cancelled.

Per our Conditions of Use which state in part: Amazon.co.uk and its affiliates reserve the right to refuse service, terminate accounts, remove or edit content, or cancel orders at their sole discretion.

Please know that any attempt to open a new account will meet with the same action.

You may direct any questions to me at resolution-uk@amazon.co.uk.

Thank you for your attention to this email.

Regards

Michael Murphy
Executive Customer Relations
Amazon.co.uk

It gets worse from there.

TaoPhoenix

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2012, 08:32:14 AM »
The top row of the keyboard (under the function keys) is applicable here.


wraith808

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2012, 08:36:56 AM »
An interesting footnote:

Quote
Back in 2009, when Amazon settled the lawsuit over its remote deletion of Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four (you really can't make this stuff up), it promised that it would not perform any further deletions unless ordered to do so by a court. I repeatedly asked Amazon whether DRM-free ebooks, or files that users load onto their Kindles themselves, could be remotely deleted. I never received a response of any kind.

from BoingBoing article on same incident.

Renegade

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2012, 08:48:19 AM »
And this is why I got an Android to read on...

Thanks for posting those articles. I'll remember that about Amazon.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

tomos

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2012, 08:57:14 AM »
wow.
bad and odd and weird - and really bad press for Amazon.
Tom

wraith808

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2012, 09:02:36 AM »
And this is why I got an Android to read on...

I have an iPad, but I'm not so sure that it's the device more than it's the software and DRM.

An example- I purchased a book on a gift card, and through a comedy of errors, the gift card was canceled.  The book still shows on my account, but I can't read it.  I had already read it (and it wasn't something I was going to read again), so it wasn't a big deal... but I never did anything about it so that I could have that image ingrained in my mind whenever I choose to use the software- to remind me of exactly what risk I'm taking.

But I thought it was on a book by book basis - not the entire account.

wraith808

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2012, 09:05:02 AM »
wow.
bad and odd and weird - and really bad press for Amazon.

This has apparently been building for a while- hopefully this will bring it to critical mass.  I did a search on amazon closed accounts, and was surprised at how many hits I got, and the details (most of the results are from sellers, but there are accounts similar to this one in there also).  Eventually, this stuff apparently gets sort of solved, as long as you are diligent and persistent.  But their responses until that point are very disheartening, almost like they want you to give up.

TaoPhoenix

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2012, 09:07:59 AM »
wow.
bad and odd and weird - and really bad press for Amazon.

(Sarcasm)
No No No, you don't get it, the more bad things they do, the more people like them! It's the Abusive Marketing concept. If you don't like them yet it's because they haven't abused your consumer rights enough. There there, we'll fix that. Then you'll be content. Not Happy, because that requires a brain left. But content.
(/Sarcasm)


tomos

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2012, 09:11:56 AM »
^ ;D

_______
It could be a case of mistaken identity (or maybe the woman did do something terrible in Amazon's eyes at some stage). But they really give the impression that they've thrown away the key.

I wonder are they afraid to be specific in their accusation because they would then have the onus of proof.

But the approach is appalling - they dont even give the impression of double checking their 'facts'.
Tom

wraith808

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2012, 09:33:58 AM »
^ I think its more neglect than any sort of policy with any sort of forethought.

And from other sites I've seen, it seems that the prevailing wisdom is that its because of copyright.  She lives in Norway.  And bought from Amazon.co.uk, which is against their rules.  But there is no Amazon for Norway.  And they originally let her purchase. (ref Forbes)

There's also more on speculation at that BoingBoing link above.

Renegade

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2012, 09:36:44 AM »
And this is why I got an Android to read on...

I have an iPad, but I'm not so sure that it's the device more than it's the software and DRM.

I think you're right there.

My wife has an iPad, and we got that for her well before I got my tab. But, it was just far too difficult to use for me as I absolutely refuse to install iTunes, and anything that I'd want to put on it was on my Windows machine, and I'm just that pig-headed and stubborn. If I can't plug it into any old box and use it like a USB drive, then I'm not going to be happy, and nothing other than full access to the file system will make me happy. And I certainly wasn't going to install a piece of software to fix what for me was a fatal flaw. So, I was very unimpressed with the iPad as I really only wanted to read materials that I downloaded and that were DRM free, e.g. I buy a good number of books from O'Reilly, and really enjoy their DRM-free books - they have me as a loyal and repeat customer.

But there's no reason at all why the iPad couldn't be the way I want -- so you're 110% right -- it's the software & DRM, not the hardware. But, phones, tablets, and phablets are pretty much locked to whatever OS they come with. I'm sure there are people out there hacking away, and can run whatever they want on <insert device here />, but... for consumer-level, human, non-uber-geek purposes, the OS becomes a major decision.

This whole thing just makes "app stores" all the less attractive, because that kill switch is built in there, and they do use it. Apple, Amazon, MS, Google, Samsung, whoever. Not so sure I really trust many of these guys. Amazon, Apple and MS are the most dangerous there, I think. Google? Not so sure they're that bad. Samsung? We'll see. Their app store isn't that popular yet. Others? Sigh... Who knows?

But being able to sideload - I think that's a big deal.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Renegade

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2012, 09:49:24 AM »
And from other sites I've seen, it seems that the prevailing wisdom is that its because of copyright.  She lives in Norway.  And bought from Amazon.co.uk, which is against their rules.  But there is no Amazon for Norway.  And they originally let her purchase. (ref Forbes)

From the article:

Quote
The issue here, it seems, is that Linn bought content from Amazon.co.uk while she resides in Norway. This, according to Amazon, is in breach of the rules.

Uh... Relevance, Mr. Amazon? (Or is that Ms. Amazon?) :P

A 10 year old walks into a store and buys a bottle of whiskey and a pack of cigarettes. It's pretty much the fault of the store keeper there.

If Amazon allows people to "break the rules", isn't it complicit there?

And besides, what relevance does being in <insert country here /> have?

Along a border crossing, you walk across to a store where what you want is a bit cheaper. Does the store keeper tell you that you can't buy anything?

"We don't serve yer kind here! Now git lost!"

Really? Is the world that insane?

Vomit or cry... Not sure what to do here...
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

wraith808

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2012, 11:06:57 AM »
And besides, what relevance does being in <insert country here /> have?

Well, it's that old merging of old school rules with new school technology.  It's explained well in the article, but the logic of it doesn' tmake any sense to me, even in the old school distribution.

Carol Haynes

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2012, 01:24:49 PM »
If Amazon trade in Europe there is a single European Market and they are violating it by discriminating against EU citizens from other EU states. It is perfectly legal for any EU citizen to purchase from any EU trader and the trader has to treat EU customers on an equal footing.

Having said that she must have registered her account from Norway so Amazon must have accepted her application and address.

I have Amazon accounts in the UK (where I live) and in the US, Canada, Germany and France (and IIRC Japan) - and ALL of them are linked by Amazon so that my delivery and payment details are shared between sites. All of those websites have happily allowed my UK address to be registered.

There are certain things I cannot buy in some markets because of trade restrictions (eg. I cannot buy view on demand TV or digital music products from the US Store). I suppose they might have a legitimate cause for complaint if I tried to circumvent their regional restrictions - but having said that they are quite happy to distribute materials outside markets illegally themselves. Look at the trading license on a US DVD or BluRay and it more than likely says it cannot be sold, lent or hired outside North America but Amazon happily break that rule - presumably because there is no mechanism for manufacturers to track those products!!

tomos

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2012, 01:38:59 PM »
I've never bought an ebook so have no idea how amazon deal with that.
With mp3s, they're very restrictive with the different markets.
Tom

Renegade

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2012, 01:47:02 PM »
Look at the trading license on a US DVD or BluRay and it more than likely says it cannot be sold, lent or hired outside North America but Amazon happily break that rule - presumably because there is no mechanism for manufacturers to track those products!!

Soon.jpg ...
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

mahesh2k

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2012, 03:00:22 PM »
One more reason to avoid cloud based purchase of stuff. By opting for cloud, companies get more control and customer lose it (ofcourse with excuse like - I am not doing something wrong so let them have it).

wraith808

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2012, 03:13:40 PM »
If Amazon trade in Europe there is a single European Market and they are violating it by discriminating against EU citizens from other EU states. It is perfectly legal for any EU citizen to purchase from any EU trader and the trader has to treat EU customers on an equal footing.

Norway isn't a part of the EU, is it?

f0dder

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2012, 03:50:43 PM »
I know I'm going to sound like a broken record, but... don't buy anything that has DRM, and do what you can to prevent others from doing so as well. If you must have the content and can't find a non-DRM source, pirate it - and do what you can to convince others that this is an acceptable thing to do. There's only one way to get rid of DRM: vote with your wallet.

As for ebooks on ipad: Calibre + Stanza. Fsck the horrid itunes crap.

It's a shame Amazon are being so stupid, as the kindle is a nifty little device, and e-ink is much better on your eyes than a TFT screen. But so be it.
- carpe noctem

Carol Haynes

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2012, 04:53:01 PM »
If Amazon trade in Europe there is a single European Market and they are violating it by discriminating against EU citizens from other EU states. It is perfectly legal for any EU citizen to purchase from any EU trader and the trader has to treat EU customers on an equal footing.

Norway isn't a part of the EU, is it?

True. I hadn't realised that ... but:

Quote
Following Norway's decision not to join the EU, it became one of the members of the European Economic Area which also includes Iceland and Liechtenstein (all former members have joined the EU and Switzerland rejected membership). The EEA links these countries into the EU's market, extending the four freedoms to these states. In return, they pay a membership fee and have to adopt most areas of EU law (which they do not have direct impact in shaping).
(See http://en.wikipedia....f_the_European_Union)

The 'four freedoms' are described here: http://en.wikipedia....rket_(European_Union)

So Norway is covered by EU Single Market trading laws (I am no lawyer but that is the way I read it).

Tinman57

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2012, 07:09:00 PM »
I know I'm going to sound like a broken record, but... don't buy anything that has DRM, and do what you can to prevent others from doing so as well. If you must have the content and can't find a non-DRM source, pirate it - and do what you can to convince others that this is an acceptable thing to do. There's only one way to get rid of DRM: vote with your wallet.

As for ebooks on ipad: Calibre + Stanza. Fsck the horrid itunes crap.

It's a shame Amazon are being so stupid, as the kindle is a nifty little device, and e-ink is much better on your eyes than a TFT screen. But so be it.

  Not going to be so easy now with the new ISP spies.  You would think they would need a search warrant to do this, but then again, who needs a warrant nowdays?

Downloaders note-ISP Copyright Alert System rollout begins
Internet service providers are now rolling out a system to warn or punish
users who download and share copyrighted content.

http://www.techhive....-rollout-begins.html


IainB

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Re: Amazon closes woman's account and wipes her Kindle
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2012, 07:54:58 AM »
You don't have to stand still and wait for the next move. You could always Backup those eBooks - protect your property.