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Does anyone here use Bitcoins?

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tomos:
It's very much like gold, IMO, and the reason that we moved away from the gold standard (and the reason that I think it was a good thing to move away from it).
-wraith808 (October 22, 2013, 10:53 AM)
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Errr... uh, I'm not so sure about that being a good thing. Look at people's purchasing power over the last 200 or 300 years or so. The last 100 years have been a train wreck.-Renegade (October 22, 2013, 11:50 AM)
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I'm never convinced by that argument - can you seperate the "value" of e.g. the dollar from the standard of living? I know they're two different things but they are dependent on each other to a certain (probably debatable) extent. You can e.g. buy a lot more labour when the labour gets paid a pittance.
Now, look at the average standard of living in 1800 and compare with today. (Of course I'm being narrow-minded and just thinking about the 'western' world there :-[ )

Renegade:
I'm not so sure about that.
-40hz (October 22, 2013, 12:07 PM)
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Hehe! Here we go...~!

If anybody today thinks the economy and standard of living in the western world during the 1800s was preferable to that of the 1900s, you'd have to turn a blind eye to most of the history of the 20th century.
-40hz (October 22, 2013, 12:07 PM)
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That conflates far too many different issues together.

It's like saying it was impossible for people to enjoy cake in the past because they didn't have gas ovens to bake in.

The point I made above was about the stability of market prices.

Standards of living, the industrial revolution, modern science, etc., were all well on their way up prior to the current incarnation of how our money is being debased.

I think you're giving far too much credit ( :P ) to the banking & finance industry.

If anything, we are doing as well as we are in spite of them, and certainly not because of them.

The increase of total money in the system is what led to much of the economic advances the western world experienced.
-40hz (October 22, 2013, 12:07 PM)
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So, then you're on board with Ben Bernanke firing up the printing presses for QEternity?

1 word:

Zimbabwe.

Or 3 words:

Weimar Republic hyperinflation.

Take your pick. :)

Currency is a measure of wealth. Wealth is a product of time and effort expended in the past and stored in some form or other. e.g. Cleared land for farming, precious metals, works of art, whatever.

You can't "print" time and effort. You can't print prosperity. If you could, Zimbabwe would be the wealtiest country in the world with everyone there being multi-trillionaires.

Even the depression in the 20s wasn't enough to tank the economy permanently - or seriously slow it down.
-40hz (October 22, 2013, 12:07 PM)
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You mean the depression in the 30s, right? (Roaring 20s - dirty 30s)

I somehow doubt that. But I think we've been reading different history books when it comes to the origins of the stock market crash of '29 and the subsequent depression. I'll see if I can dig up some references for you later and then I'll post back.

Renegade:
I'm never convinced by that argument - can you seperate the "value" of e.g. the dollar from the standard of living?
-tomos (October 22, 2013, 01:35 PM)
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So, if it cost $0.05 to buy a loaf of bread 100 years ago (when the standard of living was lower), and today it costs $5.00 (with a higher standard of living), then, when a loaf of bread costs $500.00 then what?

Inflation is theft. It robs you of purchasing power. Allowing governments and central banks to inflate currencies is simply criminal negligence.

Today I save enough to buy a loaf of bread. Tomorrow I can't buy that same loaf of bread because of inflation. That's an insidious form of theft.

But confusing the purchasing power of the dollar with standard of living just doesn't follow.

Here are the basic characteristics of money/currency:

http://www.amosweb.com/cgi-bin/awb_nav.pl?s=wpd&c=dsp&k=money+characteristics

(1) durability,
(2) divisibility,
(3) transportability, and
(4) noncounterfeitability.

The USD doesn't fit that definition, and that's a loose definition. It fails #4. Similarly, other fiat currencies do not fit that definition. Japan, Canada, the EU, Australia, etc. etc., are all engaging in quantitative easing, which is nothing more than a fancy word for "counterfeiting".

Note that the source is incredibly deluded:

An economy needs government, ABSOLUTELY NEEDS government, to regulate the total quantity of money in circulation.
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Bitcoin is proof positive that the claim there about government being needed is purely false.

Just look at how well bitcoin is doing without government. Can't people see what's right in front of them?

40hz:
@Ren - your inner Libertarian is showing again. ;D :P (kidding!)

Renegade:
@Ren - your inner Libertarian Voluntarist/Anarchist is showing again. ;D :P (kidding!)
-40hz (October 22, 2013, 09:03 PM)
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FTFY. ;)

Libertarians actually think that government is ok. ;)

e.g. A lot of people got angry at the Republicans for shutting down the US govt. I was angry that they didn't finish the job! :P ;D 8)

Cue someone complaining about "who will build the roads" in 5... 4... 3... ;)

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