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Last post Author Topic: I'm practicing how to make films  (Read 16657 times)

40hz

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Re: I'm practicing how to make films
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2012, 09:02 AM »
Look at that background.  That's a hand painted background and it's gorgeous.  People are not going to do that anymore.  Because there are so many easier ways to get a background in now with Flash, or photoshop, so there's no point.  It's like 20x more labor.  But that backdrop really does it for me.  Not to mention the tight hand crafted animations.  That music is also full symphonic highly skilled music.  I've heard that the Family Guy big band is like Seth Macfarlane's real baby; he loves that band.  And even that is an easier and more "pop" version of those Carl Stalling numbers.  It's like we've replaced quality with quantity.  Which I'm very happy about since it gives guys like me a chance to participate more easily.  But I love that style, and I'd probably try my best to get it back if I could

I'll agree with that up to a point. But I think it's still possible to get as good (or even better) a look & feel with modern techniques provided you adopt a hybrid approach and mix the vintage with the modern to capitalize on the unique capabilities of each.

Like here:



As one of the Disney people pointed out, it would have been practically impossible to do that elaborate a design on the magic carpet without using digital techniques. (Can you imagine trying to hand draw a rippling carpet with a complex arabesque pattern at 30 frames per second? That would take years and years.) But going digital on "Rug Man" yielded a surprise benefit in that once they were able to do that, they thought outside the box and asked: why not make the carpet an endearing character in the story rather than just use it as a prop?

Brilliant! That added something valid and unique back to the classic Aladdin tale. (That IMO is true creativity.)

Then there's scenes like this which I think hold up to the best ever produced by Disney in the old days:



Of course what really makes it is the body language and expressions on the characters faces. The animator in charge of Jasmin said he based her entire character on the style, mannerisms, and personality on his own sister. (I'm guessing he came from one of those large 'traditional' families and she was one of those smart and feisty "good girls" we all knew and loved when we were growing up.) So once again, it's story that's critical to making it all work.

Japan's anime masters have "story" down cold. Which is why Japanese cartoons are better than most major movies currently being made.

One of the most brilliant is Grave of the Fireflies. A masterful example of how much can be accomplished with colored ink and a poignant, rock solid story. Here's the summary from IMDB which I edited to remove story spoilers:

Setsuko and Seita are brother and sister living in wartime Japan. After their mother is killed in an air raid they find a temporary home with relatives. Having quarreled with their aunt they leave the city and make their home in an abandoned shelter. While their soldier father's destiny is unknown, the two must depend on each other to somehow keep a roof over their heads and food in their stomachs. When everything is in short supply, their only entertainment is the light of the fireflies.

This film primarily examines the horrors of war and the price our political differences extract from our children. It is an absolutely heartbreaking story. There's one minor night scene that's still etched in my head. Seita and Setsuko are sitting on a bench. After talking a bit, Seita suggests to his sister it's time for bed. She nods, leans her head down against his thigh, and immediately falls asleep, hand on her brother while still clutching her precious ragdoll and candy tin. (WARNING: This is not a Disney film. Best skip it if you get upset or depressed too easily.)

GOTF.png

There's a couple of full uploads of it on Youtube right now. They'll probably get taken down soon, so check it out while you have the chance.



« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 10:14 AM by 40hz »

superboyac

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Re: I'm practicing how to make films
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2012, 10:15 AM »
Yes, I do agree with that.  I would like to learn more about the hybrid methods.  I know Family Guy and South Park have done some really nifty things with hybrid methods.  Was it last year where Family Guy experimented with some really great looking 3D landscapes and tried doing some cinema quality stories?

I really loved those Disney films from the 90s artistically.  I thought they were the best I had ever seen, and still are because after that it went to Pixar, which I like also, but in a different way.  There were a couple of things that blew my mind when I was a teenager from those movies:
--The Aladdin scene with the lion head cave where he gets the lamp.  That scene looked so amazing at the time, my mouth was probably open.
--Any scene with that carpet.  i couldn't stop looking at it, it was so well done.  And I was very disappointed in the sequels when they took away all those great details from the rug.  The flight out of the cave; that i can show you the world scene.
--The wildebeest chase in Lion King.  Wow.  That was a perfect example of leveraging technology and computers while still retaining the traditional look.

Even the later box office dud movies had good animation, the kind I like.  The stories weren't great though.

I keep trying to like the anime stuff.  Here's what I don't like about them: the movements are always choppy or ghostly (make sense?).  They're not smooth.  The individual frames are lovely and I really enjoy the stories.  But the animation has that it's-missing-a-few-frames look to it.  At one point I looked into the differences in the way japanese animators use their software vs. the americans.  One thing I learned is that the japanese rely more on vector software vs. raster for the americans.  And vector is better in that it's more flexible and efficient.  It's easier to do 3d landscapes with vector and other fancy things like that.  The americans seem to rely more on raster workflows.  What I don't understand is why the vector results in ghostly movements and raster does not.  My ideal hybrid workflow would probably be vector all things being equal.

Now, today there is so much hybrid stuff going on, I need to research more on the techniques to see what I like best.  Toon Boom has been slowly incorporating more vector features into their software.  Japan has their own suites like Anime Studio, which are very cool and clever.

So here's my struggle I think.  First, I need to learn more about these techniques.  Second, I think like a japanese animator but my eye prefers american style.  I'd like to see if maybe I can get the japanese techniques to do american style cartoons, does anyone know of any examples?  Oh!  I know one that I really like a lot: the Batman Animated series.  For some reason, I thought that was an awesome way to cartoon.  It was anime-like, but with smooth movements.  The backdrops were Looney Toonesque, but still obviously not done the same way.  Whatever they did there is something I'd be happy with.  And whatever they did in Mask of the Phantasm to up it a notch was also really well done.  I think that's my modern reference.

Renegade

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Re: I'm practicing how to make films
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2012, 10:38 AM »
Second, I think like a japanese animator but my eye prefers american style.  I'd like to see if maybe I can get the japanese techniques to do american style cartoons, does anyone know of any examples? 

A long time ago a Japanese friend did this for me:

Fuck-Satan.jpg

She did a fantastic job of mixing a lot of things in there.

Basically, I think you can get some really cool things happening if you work with your artist closely.

Vision is a hard thing to pin down, and relies upon closely working with people. The alternative is to spend a lot of money for multiple versions. :(
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Renegade

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Re: I'm practicing how to make films
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2012, 10:39 AM »
Oh, I should mention that I was looking for the exact opposite of what you've mentioned - i.e. A Japanese style with more western concepts.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

superboyac

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Re: I'm practicing how to make films
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2012, 10:48 AM »
Oh, I should mention that I was looking for the exact opposite of what you've mentioned - i.e. A Japanese style with more western concepts.
That seems to be the more popular preference.  It's the same with the music I like, I seem to prefer the old-fashioned things.  What I worry about is let's say I was doing this for a career...would most people think it's old hat, or would they enjoy it?  Most people seem to think of my preferences as a been-there-done-that thing, but to me it really is a strong preference.  That's why I want to try a few of these things and see if what I like is something others would enjoy, or am I just boring them?  I'll have some musical things up soon and I'll be interested in people's reactions.

Renegade

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Re: I'm practicing how to make films
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2012, 11:28 AM »
Oh, I should mention that I was looking for the exact opposite of what you've mentioned - i.e. A Japanese style with more western concepts.
That seems to be the more popular preference.  It's the same with the music I like, I seem to prefer the old-fashioned things.  What I worry about is let's say I was doing this for a career...would most people think it's old hat, or would they enjoy it?  Most people seem to think of my preferences as a been-there-done-that thing, but to me it really is a strong preference.  That's why I want to try a few of these things and see if what I like is something others would enjoy, or am I just boring them?  I'll have some musical things up soon and I'll be interested in people's reactions.

I LOATHE market segmentation, but, that's kind of what you're talking about in a way. (I'm using the terms in a kind of bastardized way there.)

If you think that there is a market for something, then, hey, go for it.

Thing is, different demographics like different things.

When you're 20, you don't know your mouth hole from your ear hole, and anything with alcohol is good. Once you've been around the block a few times though, you learn that not all booze is created equal, and that HOW you drink it is also a factor.

Same goes for pretty much anything. You can fool kids into sucking up damn near anything. You only need to coat it in sugar and they'll gobble it up. It doesn't matter if you've got sugar coated donkey poo.

So, if you're trying to reach a specific demographic, you need to know what they will swallow.

Also, inside of any given demographic, you'll only be able to reach a certain portion, and of them, only some will be "on board".

If you think about it, run these scenarios through your head for people in their 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, etc.:

  • Furniture
  • Cars
  • Medicine
  • Medical insurance
  • Booze
  • Clothes
  • Phones
  • Computers
  • Sex (porn, or things that are sex-based, e.g. night clubs)
  • Music
  • etc.

The attitudes towards those things differs greatly in those different age brackets.

Blah... I'm rambling.

In short, weigh those considerations against what you're thinking of, then, go back, adjust, rinse, repeat, etc., until you are happy.

For my own software, my audience runs the gambit of all ages. The only important thing for my software is, "Do you want to learn music easier?" Done. That fits pros, amateurs, 20's, 10's, 50's, and everywhere in between -- as long as they play a musical instrument. (Well, one other consideration, but that's enough of me rambling on.) :)
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

superboyac

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Re: I'm practicing how to make films
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2012, 12:12 PM »
I think I understand what you are saying.  Yes, I've been convincing myself more and more to just trust myself and do it in the best way I know how.  That tends to work pretty well for me. 
In short, weigh those considerations against what you're thinking of, then, go back, adjust, rinse, repeat, etc., until you are happy.
That's pretty much exactly how I do it!

40hz

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Re: I'm practicing how to make films
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2012, 12:37 PM »
I've been convincing myself more and more to just trust myself and do it in the best way I know how.  That tends to work pretty well for me.

believe.png

The best advice I ever got about writing was to write something I'd want to read.

For music, to write and play the things I'd want to listen to.

Turns out both were solid.

I suspect movies probably work much the same way.

Looks like you're on the right track. :Thmbsup:
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 12:42 PM by 40hz »

40hz

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Re: I'm practicing how to make films
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2012, 08:25 PM »
A few things you might want to look at. Shows just how much you can do with limited sets and low budgets.

First is one of the best riffs on the zombie apocalypse theme (with maybe just a touch of the film Pulse) I've ever seen. It's called Pontypool. Takes place in a backwater of Canada - at the studio of the local radio station with only three main characters. All action takes place in the course of a single day. Seriously creepy movie with an excellent script and some fine acting. This one sucks you in so quickly and  completely that you almost miss how amazing it is that the director can pull it off with so little.

Full film is up on YT with (unfortunately) German subtitles. Watch it a bit and then go get it on DVD and really spend some time with it. It's a textbook example of how to do a small budget film.



Also check out Pioneer One and Tyranny - two made for the web "TV" series.

Some trailers:






superboyac

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Re: I'm practicing how to make films
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2012, 10:14 PM »
After following a fairly complex tutorial, this is a shiny logo I'm trying:
tbg-logo-5r.png

I need to clean it up to be perfect.  Ideally, this will be done in a 3D program.  Maybe Autocad.

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Re: I'm practicing how to make films
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2012, 10:20 PM »
Pontypool is great -- was discussed a bit on this thread.

superboyac

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Re: I'm practicing how to make films
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2012, 10:34 PM »
(not really related, but just wanted to post)
I played my first gig with the Sara Thacker Band.  It went well, I'm looking forward to more.  This is the first time I've ever learned a set of songs that were written from scratch.  All the other songs I've played in my life were basically covers (classical, jazz standards, classic rock covers, blues and pop tunes).  Although not that different, i did enjoy creating my own part for the songs; it felt creative.
IMG8139r.jpg

TaoPhoenix

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Re: I'm practicing how to make films
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2012, 07:07 AM »
That seems to be the more popular preference.  It's the same with the music I like, I seem to prefer the old-fashioned things.  What I worry about is let's say I was doing this for a career...would most people think it's old hat, or would they enjoy it?  Most people seem to think of my preferences as a been-there-done-that thing, but to me it really is a strong preference.  That's why I want to try a few of these things and see if what I like is something others would enjoy, or am I just boring them?  I'll have some musical things up soon and I'll be interested in people's reactions.

I'll go with this comment to work off of.

1. I'll leave the whole Vector - Raster thing to my betters. But the output is a picture (series of). So what if 3/4 of the art is the efficient stuff, but then you added your own little touch on top? Just briefly, though you said that background for that cartoon was beautiful, I disagree a little. Maybe I'm not a fan of White Characters on Brown Backdrops. What does seem to be showing up much more are sharper angles across all of anime, characters and backdrops alike. Not sure if that's efficiency or art at work.

2. There's no glory for hand drawing for the sake of hand drawing just to have a bar story. A million frames at at work here, right? Can't Copy-Paste-Alter cover some of that in modern software? On the simple scenes, with an easy change, you're not drawing all 14,000 frames, you're pasting the (background?) and 3/4 of the character, and just then working with the character art. That's gotta save a little time. I get the South Park theme as a 1-off, but overall I despise it from an art point of view. There's only room for like 20 minimalist entries before someone has to go back to hard work. (xkcd is another survivor.)

3. Re elsewhere, Mashups aren't really the masterpiece themselves - they're more like raw material. It's the absolute first stage of learning we need (see the copyright threads) just to get anyone ever into art. Someone borrows a scene, and a different song that says something to them, and a small point is made. That's all mashups usually are - but it's an important first step. Few people will spend the 4,000 hours to do a big project if they can't first goof off with a 5 hour mashup.