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Author Topic: It's Not Privacy vs Security, it's Freedom vs Control...  (Read 3853 times)

kyrathaba

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It's Not Privacy vs Security, it's Freedom vs Control...
« on: September 01, 2012, 05:33:36 PM »



Deozaan

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Re: It's Not Privacy vs Security, it's Freedom vs Control...
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2012, 11:29:59 AM »
Thanks for posting this. I've had it on my list to watch for several days now and finally got around to it. I recently read this article, which goes along well with the video:

Every so often, you hear the argument “If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear”, in order to justify increased and invasive surveillance. This argument is not only dangerous, but dishonest and cowardly, too.

...

There are at least four good reasons to reject this argument solidly and uncompromisingly: [1] The rules may change, [2] it’s not you who determine if you’re guilty, [3] laws must be broken for society to progress, and [4] privacy is a basic human need.

Read the rest of the article here: Debunking the Dangerous "If You Have Nothing to Hide, You Have Nothing to Fear"


kyrathaba

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Re: It's Not Privacy vs Security, it's Freedom vs Control...
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2012, 12:12:54 PM »
Great article. A "must read" for people concerned about the growing threat to privacy.

Renegade

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Re: It's Not Privacy vs Security, it's Freedom vs Control...
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2012, 12:28:35 PM »
Another thank you! :)

It reminds me of this lecture:

Don't Talk to the Police



It's a lawyer and a detective telling you WHY you should NEVER talk to the police.

It goes hand in hand with Debunking the Dangerous "If You Have Nothing to Hide, You Have Nothing to Fear", as Deozaan linked to.

However, it REALLY goes into a LOT more depth.

I'd highly recommend that video for anyone remotely interested, and for those that aren't, he's pretty funny, so you'd get a laugh out of it anyways. (Seriously -- the guy is a complete riot! It's almost a comedy routine!)


Basically, it's that use/abuse/surrender/coercion of information that these things all approach from one direction or another.
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TaoPhoenix

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Re: It's Not Privacy vs Security, it's Freedom vs Control...
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2012, 03:43:34 PM »
You know, I've seen that "don't talk to cops" video, but I do believe that such a mentality can be more dangerous sometimes than actually talking to the cops. The brief summary is, you have to know the "mood" of the cops in your area. Cops are not "faceless Agent Smiths". Every town/city has a "mood". So the exact same words/actions by you in one area could work perfectly in one place, and get you squashed the next town over. Amazingly, it's the "people factor" that's the deal here.

If one town has "Chief Jim" who is just awesome, and his staff is more or less rational and okay, then just talk to them when they pull you. If one town has "Evil Chief B. East" , and a judge in his pocket, getting too "uppity" is what will get him grumpy and he'll write you a ticket out of spite.


kyrathaba

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Re: It's Not Privacy vs Security, it's Freedom vs Control...
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2012, 07:36:55 PM »
Well worth the 48+ minutes to watch!

Renegade

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Re: It's Not Privacy vs Security, it's Freedom vs Control...
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2012, 10:23:56 PM »
You know, I've seen that "don't talk to cops" video, but I do believe that such a mentality can be more dangerous sometimes than actually talking to the cops. The brief summary is, you have to know the "mood" of the cops in your area. Cops are not "faceless Agent Smiths". Every town/city has a "mood". So the exact same words/actions by you in one area could work perfectly in one place, and get you squashed the next town over. Amazingly, it's the "people factor" that's the deal here.

If one town has "Chief Jim" who is just awesome, and his staff is more or less rational and okay, then just talk to them when they pull you. If one town has "Evil Chief B. East" , and a judge in his pocket, getting too "uppity" is what will get him grumpy and he'll write you a ticket out of spite.

Well, I think there that the key word is "town". Small towns are very different to big cities. Chances are that you know someone who knows the cop or his family. In a big city, fat chance. So, it's probably geared more towards the "facelessness" of large police forces, etc. etc.

Those areas where people actually know each other (or to put a spin on that - where people have more humanity towards each other) are probably much safer to talk to police in.

I think the one thing that that doesn't matter is if you are arrested - then I think they're right about everything there.

Did you have time to watch the video? They really have some seriously good stuff there.
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Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

ewemoa

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Re: It's Not Privacy vs Security, it's Freedom vs Control...
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2012, 11:23:40 PM »
It reminds me of this lecture:

Don't Talk to the Police

Thanks for this :)

TaoPhoenix

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Re: It's Not Privacy vs Security, it's Freedom vs Control...
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2012, 11:31:24 PM »
Yeah Ren, I have seen the video a couple of times, it's been around for years! Hence my comment.

But meanwhile about the bigger forces, cue all the TV cop procedurals painting those size forces as nicer too. (Though of course that's all propaganda!)

Maybe one way to separate the points is that yes, if you are officially asked to the station for questions, or if the overall tone from the officer starts getting darker, then indeed they have something up their sleeve but like 20 minutes into a tv show, they're missing something to nail you with. At that point, then yeah, get the lawyer. My remarks were for the very early stages of being pulled over for speeding, an expired sticker, or "looking suspicious".

Renegade

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Re: It's Not Privacy vs Security, it's Freedom vs Control...
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2012, 11:43:15 PM »
Yeah Ren, I have seen the video a couple of times, it's been around for years! Hence my comment.

But meanwhile about the bigger forces, cue all the TV cop procedurals painting those size forces as nicer too. (Though of course that's all propaganda!)

Blah... I read that you saw it, and forgot. Very often I open up videos that people recommend, but don't get around to watching them for a few days, and posted thinking maybe you did the same. Just me with my brain falling out there. :(

Kind of OT - about cop shows, etc.

I remember when the TV show "Cops" came out. I simply couldn't watch it. I saw a couple, and it just seemed so dumb to watch. What a complete horror show the way it helped pave the way for reality TV... :(

I can't even stand to watch any cop/crime dramas anymore. Well, with a couple exceptions. The constant propaganda just gets to me now and gives me an icky feeling when watching it.

I think one of the worst is CSI: Miami. I would totally watch a show of that if the main characters were all killed off. They simply represent some of the lowest scum. My main issue there is how they blatantly break the law in vicious ways, but somehow these are still the "good guys". As if we're supposed to swallow that. It's a sick story. However, I'd separate that from shows like "The Shield" where there's no pretense of the cops being "good guys".

It's the message that "it's ok for police to murder people because there's the 'good guys' and you need to shut up and trust them" which I find sickening.




Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Stoic Joker

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Re: It's Not Privacy vs Security, it's Freedom vs Control...
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2012, 07:08:58 AM »
However, I'd separate that from shows like "The Shield" where there's no pretense of the cops being "good guys".

I loved that show! But yeah, I'm in about the same place these days regarding the rest.

IainB

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Re: It's Not Privacy vs Security, it's Freedom vs Control...
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2012, 08:33:47 AM »
Don't Talk to the Police
...and how to talk and not talk to the police per Nightjack Archive:
(Copied below, sans hyperlinks.)
Quote
A Survival Guide For Decent Folk
**04/08/08 Moderate Sarcasm Warning **

Paul has posted a number of lengthy replies on the “Modest Proposal” thread. In these days of us increasingly having to deal with law abiding folk who have fallen foul of the “entitled poor” and those who have learned how to use us to score points and exact revenge, I thought it would be a good idea to give out a bit of general guidance for those law abiding types who find themselves under suspicion or under arrest. It works for the bad guys so make it work for you.

Complain First
Always get your complaint in first, even if it is you who started it and you who were in the wrong. If things have gone awry and you suspect the cops are going to be called, get your retaliation in first. Ring the cops right away and allege for all you are worth. If you can work a racist or homophobic slant into it so much the better.

Make a counter allegation
Regardless of the facts, never let the other side be blameless. If they beat you to the phone, ring anyway and make a counter allegation against them. Again racism or homophobia are your friends. If you are not from a visible minority ethnic culture, may I suggest that that the phrase “You gay bastard” or similar is always useful. In extremis allege sexual assault. It gives us something to bargain with when getting the other person to drop their complaint on a quid-pro-quo basis. This is particularly good where there are no independent witnesses. When it boils down to one word against another and nobody is ‘fessing up, CPS run a mile and you, my friend, are definitely on a walk out

Never explain to the Police
If the Police arrive to lock you up, say nothing. You are a decent person and you may think that reasoning with the Police will help. “If I can only explain, they will realise it is all a horrible mistake and go away”. Wrong. We do want to talk to you on tape in an interview room but that comes later. All you are doing by trying to explain is digging yourself further in. We call that stuff a significant statement and we love it. Decent folk can’t help themselves, they think that they can talk their way out. Wrong.

Admit Nothing
To do anything more than lock you up for a few hours we need to prove a case. The easiest route to that is your admission. Without it, our case may be a lot weaker, maybe not enough to charge you with. In any case, it is always worth finding out exactly how damning the evidence is before you fall on your sword. So don’t do the decent and honourable thing and admit what you have done. Don’t even deny it or try to give your side of the story.  Just say nothing. No confession and CPS are on the back foot already. They forsee a trial. They fear a trial. They are looking for any excuse to send you home free.

Keep your mouth shut
Say as little as possible to us. At the custody office desk a Sergeant will ask you some questions. It is safe to answer these. For the rest of the time, say nothing.

Claim Suicidal Thoughts
A debatable one this. Claiming to be thinking about topping yourself has several benefits. If you can keep it up, it might just bump up any compensation payable later. On the other hand you may find yourself in a paper suit with someone watching your every move.

Always always always have a solicitor
Duh. No brainer this one. Unless you know 100% for sure that your mate the solicitor does criminal law and is good at it, ask for the Duty Solicitor. They certainly do criminal law and they are good at it. Then listen to what the solicitor says and do it. Their job is to get you off without the Cops or CPS laying a glove on you if at all possible. It is what they get paid for. They are free to you. There is no down side. Now decent folks think it makes them look like they have something to hide if they ask for a solicitor. Irrelevant. Going into an interview without a solicitor is like taking a walk in Tottenham with a big gold Rolex. Bad things are very likely to happen to you. I wouldn’t do it and I interview people for a living.

Actively complain about every officer and everything they do
Did they cuff you when they brought you in? Were they rude to you? Did they racially or homophobically abuse you? Didn’t get fed? Cell too cold? You are decent folk who don’t want to make a fuss but trust me, it pays to whinge and no matter how trivial and / or poorly founded your complaint there are people who will uncritically listen to you and try and prove the complaint on your behalf. Some of them are even police officers. Nothing like a complaint to muddy the waters and suggest that you are only in court because the vindictive Cops have a grudge against you. Far fetched? Wait until your solicitor spins it in court and you come over as Ghandi.

Show no respect to the legal system or anybody working in it
You think that if you are a difficult, unpleasant, sneering, unco-operative and rude things will go badly for you and you will be in more trouble. No sirree Bob. It seems that in fact the worse you are, the easier things will go for you if, horror of horrors, you do end up convicted. Remember to fake a drink problem if you haven’t developed one as a result of dealing with us already. Magistrates and Judges do seem to like the idea that you are basically good but the naughty alcohol made you do it. They treat you better. Crazy I know but true.

So there you go, basically anything you try and do because you are decent and staightforward hurts you badly. Act like an habitual, professional, lifestyle criminal and chances are you will walk away relatively unscathed. Copy the bad guys, its what they do for a living.

Renegade

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Re: It's Not Privacy vs Security, it's Freedom vs Control...
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2012, 08:26:35 AM »
Just saw this, and didn't really know where to put it other than this thread. The Pirate Bay just posted this on their Facebook page:

Screenshot - 2012-10-02 , 11_23_29 PM.png

 :Thmbsup:
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker