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Author Topic: Go dark for IE - October 26, 2012  (Read 5184 times)
Josh
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« on: August 18, 2012, 04:15:29 PM »



Quote
The Mission
Old browsers hurt the web! They don't understand modern technologies, lack features, they're buggy, have security holes and prevent you from seeing the web the way it should be seen. Imagine if everyone didn't upgrade their TV or computer? It would mean all the great enhancements like HD, DVD's etc would all go to waste. Imagine what you'd be missing out on!

Using IE8 and below makes the web less than what it is. Potentially holding back the web!

Quote
The Plan
Our plan: To get websites to go dark on October 26, 2012 to users of Internet Explorer below version 9.
Go Dark For IE
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rgdot
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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2012, 04:38:21 PM »

Below 9?

9 is Vista and above, there are still millions of XP installs out there  undecided (I mean me included)
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Jibz
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2012, 04:52:09 PM »

Why stop at 9 Grin
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nosh
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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2012, 04:59:18 PM »

I'm on XP too and some sites work right only with IE, so I'm forced to use it occasionally. But if you're running an older version of IE on sites that support other browsers, a wake up call wouldn't be a bad thing. smiley
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IainB
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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2012, 05:38:32 PM »

Sooo negative. Consider the law of unintended consequences, and try to stack the odds in favour of the consequences you actually want.
What's wrong with a polite, helpful and constructive approach along the following lines?
A pop-up note: (logic options in square brackets)
Quote
Hi,
We notice that you are using an old/obsolete browser to access this website - [Internet Explorer 6].
We [won't be able to] [or] [aren't able to] support old/obsolete browsers like this, so what you see on your screen may not look very good or may not even be able to show you things like relevant videos or animations. Sorry about that.

If you want to upgrade your browser to its current version for free, please go to this link: http:/etc. When you have installed the current version, come back here and take a look with "new eyes". We think you'll like what you see, and we'd love to have you look around our website - it's been put here for people just like you to enjoy.
Would you like more information or help on this topic? If so, then please take a look at our FAQ ("Frequently Asked Questions") - here [link]
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fenixproductions
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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2012, 05:46:54 PM »

 thumb down
I am one of the happy XP users and there is no true reason for me to lose few hundreds bucks just for the sake of newer OS and IE bashing.
IE8 is not so bad with few JS libraries in use (a LOT better than previous versions when you need to fix websites and I do it daily).
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nosh
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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2012, 06:07:27 PM »

Iain, from the site Josh linked to:

Quote
Why not just show a simple upgrade banner? Or why not just fix the bugs and get sites working in old versions?

The problem is some users just don't upgrade! And the reasons is very simple, some just don't care, some don't know how to, and some can't because of their IT department. In any case, as long as old versions of a browser remain the default on a computer, people will use it and developers will be forced to continue to develop for it.

TBH, I don't expect this approach to work either.

Edit: Scrolled all the way down. There are five websites participating so far.  tongue

Edit 2: Facebook started phasing out support for IE7 at the end of last year. I don't expect them to start targeting IE8 anytime soon. Wink
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 06:28:59 PM by nosh » Logged
app103
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2012, 08:05:57 PM »

Imagine my horror in 2008 when I woke up to find that my main PC had died a horrible death, leaving me with nothing to use but something built in 1997, something incapable of running the latest and greatest. Imagine my horror when I discovered that one of the sites I used for email locked me out because I was using IE6. Imagine my horror when switching to the latest version of K-Meleon didn't help me gain access to my email. Imagine my horror when I couldn't just run out and buy another computer. Imagine my horror when I had to use that old computer for almost a year.

I hate browser bigots. I hate when people propose punishing those that are less fortunate than themselves for their misfortunes.

I kind of put it right up there with the idea of beating up a one-legged man till he "upgrades" and grows another leg.

I don't care what you do, black out sites, cut off users, bomb them with popups and other notices, if they can't upgrade their browser, they can't upgrade their browser. If they can't upgrade their hardware, they can't upgrade their hardware. Nothing you do, short of buying them a new computer is going to change that.

I think a much better proposal, if you hate older versions of IE that much, would be to stick a form in the faces of users of outdated versions of IE that if they fill it out with their shipping info, you will send them a brand new computer. That would go much farther towards eradicating old versions of IE than just being mean to people who might not have a choice.

And why the hell does everyone choose to do these kinds of organized bigoted acts whenever I find myself forced to use an older computer? Anyone that doesn't like the fact I am currently not running the latest and greatest can fix that by going here and putting their money where their hatred is.
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TaoPhoenix
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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2012, 08:50:31 PM »

Wow App! That will get a discussion rolling!
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« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2012, 08:55:55 PM »

Why Dell though? ................... Just kidding app smiley

Can't add much except that the security issue or excuse is fine but passing the buck to the customer because you made a program full of holes is not entirely fair. Basically I agree with app but I guess not as strongly as she feels about it.
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IainB
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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2012, 10:11:25 PM »

^ Pretty much wot @app103 said.    thumbs up

[Rant]
I was going to say something similar, because I thought the whole idea smacked of bigotry and Fascism - punishment and excommunication for non-conformance.
The reason I didn't say it was that when faced by bigots, I try to put contrary ideas across in as positive a framework as possible, to allow the idea to have at least a decent half-life in their minds before being rejected by the bigots. Sometimes, against all odds, such ideas can germinate in what might otherwise appear to be hopelessly barren ground.

The original LCD (Lowest Common Denominator) browser tool was (I think) Mosaic(?). Then Netscape picked up the ball and ran with it, against Microsoft - who got all proprietary over the idea of "open systems" and started to force IE down our throats as a vital component of the bundle with the OS, until they got smacked down for anti-trust activity. MS were trying to create "lock-in" for IE.

The MS IE silliness continues though, as they still bundle stuff into IE (QED: the superb MS Office and Sharepoint integration), but are now smart enough to stay just on the right side of the law. (Come to think of it, does anyone else notice how smooooth IE9 is with Outlook.com, or is it just me?)

Mozilla came to fill the gap left by Netscape's inexplicable(?) decline, and the latest incarnation (Firefox) seems to perform a sterling job - an open browser with an easy plugin/add-on development path - things which we should probably all be grateful for.
Not only that, but also, for a while there, it rather looked as though Google were giving us even more freedom of choice and open systems with Chrome, but no, they have apparently withdrawn their support of Mozilla development and seem to have embarked on a path of building in proprietary functionality (lock-in) to chrome for some of the Google services. Deja vu. Probably in imitation of MS' aforementioned antics with IE - "Learn from the masters", etc.
[/Rant]
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 10:30:42 PM by IainB; Reason: Minor corrections. » Logged
Renegade
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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2012, 11:12:38 PM »

I really hate bigoted hypocrites. This part really pisses me off:

Quote
They don't understand modern technologies, lack features, they're buggy, have security holes and prevent you from seeing the web the way it should be seen.

Because the way the web SHOULD be viewed looks exactly like this:

Formatted for HTML with the GeSHI Syntax Highlighter [copy or print]
  1. <div id="mission">
  2. <div class="container">
  3.  
  4. <h2>The Mission</h2>
  5.  
  6. <p><strong>Old browsers hurt the web!</strong> They don't understand modern technologies, lack features, they're buggy, have security holes and prevent you from seeing the web the way it should be seen. Imagine if everyone didn't upgrade their TV or computer? It would mean all the great enhancements like HD, DVD's etc would all go to waste. Imagine what you'd be missing out on!</p>
  7.  
  8. <p><strong>Using IE8 and below makes the web less than what it is.</strong> Potentially holding back the web!</p>
  9.  
  10. <h3 class="border">Our plan: To get websites to go dark on October 26, 2012 to users of Internet Explorer below version 9.</h3>
  11.  
  12. <p class="border">Why not just show a simple upgrade banner? Or why not just fix the bugs and get sites working in old versions?</p>
  13. <p>The problem is some users just don't upgrade! And the reasons is very simple, some just don't care, some don't know how to, and some can't because of their IT department. In any case, as long as old versions of a browser remain the default on a computer, people will use it and developers will be forced to continue to develop for it.</p>
  14.  
  15. <p>It's not just about getting a site working cross-browser, long term catering for older browsers means new technologies are not used to their full potential or not at all, and this is holding back the web for many people.</p>
  16.  
  17. <p class="intro">It's time to make an impact and let users know they're using outdated technology!</p>
  18.  
  19. <h3 class="border">Our goal: To get users of old versions of Internet Explorer to upgrade.</h3>
  20.  
  21. <p class="large">The only way to truly force users to embrace the modern web and modern browsers is to stop supporting older browsers.</p>
  22.  
  23. <p class="large">Users need to put more pressure on their IT departments and get them to upgrade their browsers or give greater choice.</p>
  24.  
  25. <h3 class="border">Embrace The Modern Web</h3>
  26. <p class="intro">Upgrade your browser today!</p>
  27.  
  28. <ul class="browsers">
  29. <li>
  30. <a href="http://windows.microsoft.com/ie">
  31. <img src="./upgrade/img/ie.png">
  32. <strong>Internet Explorer</strong>
  33. </a>
  34. </li>
  35. <li>
  36. <a href="http://www.google.com/chrome">
  37. <img src="./upgrade/img/chrome.png">
  38. <strong>Chrome</strong>
  39. </a>
  40. </li>
  41. <li>
  42. <a href="http://www.firefox.com">
  43. <img src="./upgrade/img/firefox.png">
  44. <strong>Firefox</strong>
  45. </a>
  46. </li>
  47. <li>
  48. <a href="http://www.apple.com/safari">
  49. <img src="./upgrade/img/safari.png">
  50. <strong>Safari</strong>
  51. </a>
  52. </li>
  53. <li>
  54. <a href="http://www.opera.com">
  55. <img src="./upgrade/img/opera.png">
  56. <strong>Opera</strong>
  57. </a>
  58. </li>
  59. </ul>
  60.  
  61. </div>
  62. </div>

So there. tongue
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SeraphimLabs
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« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2012, 11:41:38 PM »

And really, I'd rather do the opposite- go dark for anything NEWER than IE 10 in protest of Microsoft having produced broken products for so many years and continuing to release buggy defective product that requires expert attention to make into a stable functional end result.

Microsoft has long been on my naughty list, but ever since Vista came down the pipe they've been getting worse and worse every year. Even XP, which has logged some 10 years of faithful service, was horribly broken when new.

I had this conversation with my boss once. It went something to the tune of why replace what still works well when all you're doing is changing things around and not really adding anything new. At the time we were talking about cars, and how a 20+ year old car did everything a modern car did just as well if not better (It was beating the MPG of newer cars by a lot), but it applies very much to computers as well.

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Renegade
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« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2012, 11:54:43 PM »

I had this conversation with my boss once. It went something to the tune of why replace what still works well when all you're doing is changing things around and not really adding anything new. At the time we were talking about cars, and how a 20+ year old car did everything a modern car did just as well if not better (It was beating the MPG of newer cars by a lot), but it applies very much to computers as well.

There seems to be a general trend to constantly reinvent the wheel with the new wheel always being incompatible with existing cars, requiring you to purchase a new car for your new wheels. But worse than that, some new wheels don't work on some new cars, forcing you to limit the cars that you choose from.

The entire "vendor lock-in" and "upgrade" model is very broken. It works against the best interests of consumers. Again, this should shed a bit of light on the wisdom of Richard Stallman and the GNU/FSF philosophy, for both hardware and software.
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mahesh2k
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« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2012, 12:17:25 AM »

Not cool. It feels like racial discrimination or something like BB or Iphone crowd does with the walled garden stuff. It's hard to express for me. Though most of the old computers died on me, still I don't see any reason in supporting such crappy pixel puppy riot.

Just detect the browser version and show a message box in sidebar asking them to upgrade their browser. If they ignore that then stop worrying about them.

That said, this type of protest looks crappy to me. Just because bunch of designers having no date for their pixel prom, they are doing this to rest of the people.
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wraith808
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« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2012, 12:20:09 AM »

Imagine my horror in 2008 when I woke up to find that my main PC had died a horrible death, leaving me with nothing to use but something built in 1997, something incapable of running the latest and greatest. Imagine my horror when I discovered that one of the sites I used for email locked me out because I was using IE6. Imagine my horror when switching to the latest version of K-Meleon didn't help me gain access to my email. Imagine my horror when I couldn't just run out and buy another computer. Imagine my horror when I had to use that old computer for almost a year.

I hate browser bigots. I hate when people propose punishing those that are less fortunate than themselves for their misfortunes.

I kind of put it right up there with the idea of beating up a one-legged man till he "upgrades" and grows another leg.

I don't care what you do, black out sites, cut off users, bomb them with popups and other notices, if they can't upgrade their browser, they can't upgrade their browser. If they can't upgrade their hardware, they can't upgrade their hardware. Nothing you do, short of buying them a new computer is going to change that.

I think a much better proposal, if you hate older versions of IE that much, would be to stick a form in the faces of users of outdated versions of IE that if they fill it out with their shipping info, you will send them a brand new computer. That would go much farther towards eradicating old versions of IE than just being mean to people who might not have a choice.

And why the hell does everyone choose to do these kinds of organized bigoted acts whenever I find myself forced to use an older computer? Anyone that doesn't like the fact I am currently not running the latest and greatest can fix that by going here and putting their money where their hatred is.

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daddydave
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« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2012, 07:40:51 AM »

I think the only people who are using old versions of IE as their main browser are the ones being forced to by the fat, lethargic, too-big-to-manage companies they work for. After the Go Dark campaign, those companies will continue to be fat, lethargic, and too big to manage.

This post will be deleted in 24 hours.
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« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2012, 08:00:07 AM »

I think the only people who are using old versions of IE as their main browser are the ones being forced to by the fat, lethargic, too-big-to-manage companies they work for. After the Go Dark campaign, those companies will continue to be fat, lethargic, and too big to manage.

This post will be deleted in 24 hours.

Although this may be true that some companies still use XP with stock IE as their primary browsing arrangement, most companies that I've encountered at least attempt to keep up with current technology. After all, although the 2012 model shiny computer might do exactly the same thing as the 2002 shiny computer and only do half as good a job of it, you can't deny the fact that the 2012 model is 4x faster than what it is replacing.

But I know a LOT of people who flat out cannot afford to upgrade their old XP based systems. And where I live, there are people who honest to god ARE STILL USING DIALUP

Stuff like this is just taking all those people- those who cannot afford to upgrade or don't have access to anything more modern, and shutting them off of the internet purely for the convenience of developers not supporting older software anymore.
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40hz
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« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2012, 08:16:45 AM »

People generally use whatever works for them. Punishing them is not an effective way to encourage  them to change. If websites just stop jumping through all those hoops they allegedly do to support older browsers, people will eventually migrate over to what works. That's how it's always worked in the past. Those people who are unwilling (or can't for technical reasons) upgrade will become a new market and income opportunity for those sites that do continue to support their browser versions.

Web developers and hosts need to get over themselves a little. This isn't the 90s any more. The web's era of the child-king webmaster and the techno-elite is largely over. The Internet has already become a commodity. And it will soon become just another public utility - no different than electricity, water, and sewage treatment. Time to get with the new reality folks!

Openness and 'come as you are' has always been the rule of the web. How is this "go dark" initiative any different from the thinking of certain governments when they propose to establish an official web access client? And are these people who propose the web "go dark" the same people protesting closed ecosystems whenever Apple and Microsoft attempt to play that game? Or who rebel against any attempt to dictate to them how they operate their websites?

If so, it's a sad state of affairs.

I can see a time in the not too distant future when I put an old school Fido BBS system on a Raspberry Pi and walk away from all this browser nonsense once and for all. And after talking to a few other folks, I now know I'm not the only one thinking about doing it.
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« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2012, 08:55:39 AM »

I'll add a wrinkle from another direction: At the very bottom of the page is:

"Go Dark For IE © 2012"

So despite claiming to be "inspired by go dark to stop SOPA", they *copyrighted* their page! Not even Creative Commons!
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sword
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« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2012, 01:09:28 PM »

@app103

+1 from someone using Firefox 11
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Tuxman
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« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2012, 01:25:16 PM »

From my website's weekly stats:



Meh.
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« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2012, 01:32:13 PM »

The only website name I recognise on that list is "www.baidu.com" - And seeing as ANYBODY can type in any link (Pretty sure I could put google in there and they would list google as participating) - Not sure this is going to be all that big, or important tongue
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« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2012, 01:34:26 PM »

I decided to try putting in "www.google.com"

Seems it worked...

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« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2012, 01:44:18 PM »

I decided to try putting in "www.google.com"

Seems it worked...
 (see attachment in previous post)
Grin Grin Grin ridiculous

adding microsoft.com would be hilarious tongue
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