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Author Topic: Windows 8: Yes, it's that bad  (Read 5646 times)
xtabber
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« on: August 15, 2012, 09:30:34 PM »

"Windows 8 review: Yes, it's that bad"

"Windows 8 is a failure -- an awkward mishmash that pulls the user in two directions and ends up as a desktop OS for tablets and a tablet OS for desktop."

"Windows 8 is guaranteed to disappoint nearly everyone."

These harsh words come from Woody Leonhard, of all people, writing in InfoWorld today.

Not having tried Windows 8 yet, I'll reserve my own judgment, but while I have read good things about the underlying engine, there seems to be almost unanimous condemnation of the Metro Modern UI.
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mouser
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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2012, 09:40:47 PM »

Thanks for posting that link -- sounds like the author had some of the same feelings I had trying it:

"From the user's standpoint, Windows 8 is a failure -- an awkward mishmash that pulls the user in two directions at once. Users attracted to the new touch-friendly Metro GUI will dislike the old touch-hostile desktop underneath. By the same token, users who rely on the traditional Windows desktop will dislike having to navigate Metro to find settings and apps they intuitively locate in Windows 7."

(ps. i changed your topic title)
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techidave
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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2012, 10:05:53 PM »

Why does it seem like every other OS version that Microsoft comes out with seem to be a bust??
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Renegade
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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2012, 10:34:41 PM »

Still haven't checked it out yet... and reserving judgement... When it comes to MS, things often get overblown. So, no idea yet...
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wraith808
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« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2012, 10:39:40 PM »

Still haven't checked it out yet... and reserving judgement... When it comes to MS, things often get overblown. So, no idea yet...

My thoughts exactly.  And seeing the rumors of Surface at $199 makes me hope that it's good...
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iphigenie
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« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2012, 01:25:39 AM »

Any major change of UI will normally get reviled - people hate every time a website changes anything, facebook, twitter, any! People hate changes to gnome, the new UI on Ubuntu. People hate when an app changes or a browser changes...

Or at least, one hears about the haters most. Then people adapt and on average figure out "hey, this is actually pretty good for ..." and find solutions for the bits they cant adapt to.

And it's probably worst of all for anything that isn't cool. You're supposed to hate windows, you're supposed to make excuses why you use it (facebook is slowly the same too)
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zridling
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« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2012, 01:28:27 AM »

The real problem with futzing with the Window UI will be the business class. This is where Microsoft is crossing the Rubicon, encouraging people just to stick with Win7 and not upgrade. They're not going to work on spreadsheets and among all their MSOffice documents with their fingers, nor will they want to take the time to bypass the Metro screen every time they logon. As for the Surface, be wary there, too. Apple found out the hard way that people just want a cheap, usable, tablet they can carry around; just ask Amazon (Kindle) and Google (Nexus 7).
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mouser
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« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2012, 01:35:36 AM »

Quote
..nor will they want to take the time to bypass the Metro screen every time they logon.


*IF* it turns out that the only thing you have to do in windows 8 to get back to a normal desktop is click something after it boots, after which you have a full desktop experience and never have to deal with metro stuff, and there are no larger consequences, then this whole dust-up is yet another ginned-up silly exercise in complaining about the most trivial of inconveniences, and everyone is getting the knickers twisted for absolutely no reason at all.

However, that is a big giant "IF", because it seems to me that having two kinds of interfaces (metro touch-centric vs desktop) is going to be a schizophrenic situation for developers and microsoft itself, and it's hard for me to envision their not being serious consequences for this approach -- like splitting the windows developers into first and second class citizens with the new microsoft app store stuff, etc. Or requiring users to shift between different modes of using their computer based on what application they are using -- creating a daily conflict of user interface standards.  We shall see..
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Renegade
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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2012, 02:26:39 AM »

I must confess... I have on more than 1 occasion looked for touch screen monitors. They're pretty overpriced though.

But there are times when I wish I could use a touch interface on my desktop as the nature of the work flow would improve. Not always, in fact seldom, but there are cases.

But somehow I doubt that I would get what I wanted. Sad All we'll see is more games and "apps" and web crap. It will be a while before computers actually get a seriously usable interface that integrates different input methods. The key will be voice, which is so locked down right now that it is completely unusable by anyone except the largest software houses/vendors. e.g. Microsoft, Samsung, Apple, Google, etc. Nobody else can realistically use voice because the model is so completely broken and skewed against innovation. I've ranted before about voice. Same applies, but worse. (I've been working on voice for a while now, and get to peer a bit deeper into the abyss than most...)

Anyways, for Metro or whateverthehellitscallednowbecauseofsomeassaninepatentcopyrighttrademarkipbsnonsense, I can see situations where it would be nice to flip between the two.
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iphigenie
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« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2012, 03:11:15 AM »

it seems to me that having two kinds of interfaces (metro touch-centric vs desktop) is going to be a schizophrenic situation for developers and microsoft itself, and it's hard for me to envision their not being serious consequences for this approach -- like splitting the windows developers into first and second class citizens with the new microsoft app store stuff, etc. Or requiring users to shift between different modes of using their computer based on what application they are using -- creating a daily conflict of user interface standards.  We shall see..

This situation is quite common - it exists for games developers (mouse, gamepad, touch, joystick), it exists for phone app developers (2 types of touch interface and non touch as well). It hasn't killed those ecosystems, so I suspect with sufficiently solid frameworks and SDK it will be fairly easy to adapt apps to touch/no touch options on the PC too. At least you'd hope MS has thought about that and plans to make it easy for devs.
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mouser
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« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2012, 03:16:12 AM »

I suppose it's true that for all the hand-wringing, it's possible that Microsoft could in fact pave the way (if not with Windows 8 then with Windows 9), for the unification of the desktop-touch worlds, giving us the best of both under a single platform, saving us from a future where tablet touch interfaces are all there is.
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Carol Haynes
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« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2012, 03:34:52 AM »

Having played with not-Metro I can't really see the attraction (even for not-Metro apps). It is pretty ugly and annoying to use on a desktop.

As for the desktop - so long as you don't mind pinning all your apps to the taskbar you probably never have to see not-Metro.

Couple of points you can turn off the lock screen (who thought that was a good idea on the desktop?) and if you put the Desktop tile as the first tile in not-Metro you only have to press return when not-Metro appears to go to the desktop.

My problem is even with 3 x 24" HD monitors in AMD Eyeinfinity mode my task bar is stll not big enough to pin all my applications - presumably I will now have to start filling all the screens with shortcut icons to start apps.

I just hope they managed to sort out the ridiculous shutdown routine in pre RTM versions otherwise there will be a lot of unhappy people who resort to pulling the plug!
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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2012, 06:56:59 AM »

I've played with the earlier versions, and DL'ed the final yesterday. Haven't had time to install it yet. But I really don't have a problem with Metro. I think this is just Vista bashing FUD v2.0

One think Metro does fix, is that it finally rids me of having to contend with the completely useless Control Panel category view. I can just type in what I want..and get it. Sure I could kinda do that in 7 also...but if I accidentally (old habit) clicked on the Control Panel, I had to suffer through the agonizing hierarchical word maze, or switch to classic view to make sense out of the damn thing.
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f0dder
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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2012, 03:07:09 PM »

Disclaimer: I only played around with the Developer Preview, haven't tried the RC or the final. But switching between FORMEtRo and classic does indeed feel schizoprhenic, and the touch gestures just don't work very well with a mouse. And you do need to go to FORMEtRo for stuff like the control panel (how often do you need to go there after initial system setup, though?). I like the FORMEtRo visual style, but it doesn't work well for all PC applications, and having to switch between two different operating modes... well, it's schizo. And then there's the issue of Secure Boot - which IMHO has it's positive sides, but I just don't trust Microsoft enough to think it's unambiguously a good thing.

A shame, since there's been a whole lot of nice improvements to the Windows kernel and whatnot. I wish MS would make the whole thing a lot more modular, and let power users do a lot more pick-and-choosing without having to revert to 3rd party tools like nLite/vLite/RT se7en Lite. Especially considering how hard their engineers have been working at making the various Kernel and API layers modular from Vista and onwards.

Why does it seem like every other OS version that Microsoft comes out with seem to be a bust??
NT4 rocked, Win2k rocked, WinXP rocked, and Vista wasn't all too bad when SP1 arrived. Your urban myth just doesn't hold water smiley

My thoughts exactly.  And seeing the rumors of Surface at $199 makes me hope that it's good...
I'd suppose the FORMEtRo UI works pretty well on a tablet when you don't have to deal with both classic and FORMEtRo - so a WinRT tablet at $200 would be loooovely. I personally find that it "only" runs 1080p resolution a benefit compared to the iPad3, which wastes a lot of battery on running a ridiculously high resolution for it's physical size.

Anyway, the article seems pretty much a non-review to me - enough flame to generate pageviews, hidden under a thin veil of trying to appear as a review. Is Woody one of Randall C. Kennedy's aliases?

Might want to browse through Building Windows 8 while waiting for a proper review... and if you like the really technical stuff, browse Channel9 for Mark Russinovich stuff (been a while since I went there, so dunno if there's win8-specific vidoes... but the work they did on the Win7 kernel was already pretty impressive).
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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2012, 03:23:57 PM »

I personally find that it "only" runs 1080p resolution a benefit compared to the iPad3, which wastes a lot of battery on running a ridiculously high resolution for it's physical size.

 Thmbsup Damn Straight!  Thmbsup
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Deozaan
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2012, 04:05:03 PM »

Two questions:

1. Does Windows 8 Final/RTM have a 60 trial thingy like previous versions of Windows?
2. If so, where can I download a legitimate ISO to try it out on a VM?
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f0dder
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2012, 04:31:35 PM »

2. If so, where can I download a legitimate ISO to try it out on a VM?
Thought you needed a MSDN subscription, but "windows 8 download site:microsoft.com" provided this link smiley
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2012, 04:34:45 PM »

Two questions:

1. Does Windows 8 Final/RTM have a 60 trial thingy like previous versions of Windows?
2. If so, where can I download a legitimate ISO to try it out on a VM?

Deozaan, at the moment the RTM version seems to be available only to MSDN and TechNet subscribers (separate links for each therein).

Otherwise the closest you can get is the release preview version.

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Deozaan
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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2012, 06:18:07 PM »

Thanks. Thmbsup
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kamiller42
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« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2012, 10:03:21 AM »

I think the following statement by the author gives him some cred; he's not just anti-MS or anti-UI changes. His opinion is based on experience.

"Having used Windows 8 on desktops, a laptop, and on a tablet for almost a year now, I'm considerably more skeptical."

By using, I assume he means his daily driver.
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jgpaiva
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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2012, 10:13:03 AM »

I just read this other article: Why I’m uninstalling Windows 8 which some particularly scary statements:
Quote
Window management is a pain in the arse

Metro apps don’t have any window controls. If you want to swap between apps, you have to make a convoluted mouse gesture - move the mouse to the top left of the screen, and then down to select the window. You can’t minimise the app, and there’s no on-screen preview of what’s running to help you quickly switch between programs.
Does anyone know if windows 8 banned the alt-tab or if we can't have two windows side-by-side? Or does the "desktop app" work pretty much as in previous versions and this reviewer just doesn't know how to use it?
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f0dder
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« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2012, 10:19:49 AM »

Does anyone know if windows 8 banned the alt-tab or if we can't have two windows side-by-side? Or does the "desktop app" work pretty much as in previous versions and this reviewer just doesn't know how to use it?
I think this reviewer is focusing mostly on FORMEtRo. It's a better piece of text than the crap this thread started with smiley, but IMHO it still doesn't paint the fully picture of Win8... like, nobodys says you have to use the built-in mail, media player, calendar and other crap - you can still use your tried-and-trusted desktop apps.

It sucks that some tasks require going to FORMEtRo, though - it would be nice if one could just ignore that part (and perhaps not even install it) if not wanted.
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jgpaiva
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« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2012, 10:48:49 AM »

It sucks that some tasks require going to FORMEtRo, though - it would be nice if one could just ignore that part (and perhaps not even install it) if not wanted.
What do you mean? I expected it would be how you described: metro is there, but if you want you can not use it at all.
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Stoic Joker
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« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2012, 11:34:07 AM »

Does anyone know if windows 8 banned the alt-tab or if we can't have two windows side-by-side? Or does the "desktop app" work pretty much as in previous versions and this reviewer just doesn't know how to use it?
[/quote]

Alt+Tab still works (as expected) just fine. Desktop App behavior hasn't changed either.
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jgpaiva
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« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2012, 03:21:08 PM »

Alt+Tab still works (as expected) just fine. Desktop App behavior hasn't changed either.
Ok, glad to know that smiley Thanks
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