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Why Linux sucks (and how to fix it) VS. Linux doesn't suck (and I can prove it)
mahesh2k:
Wireless support for debian and it;s child distros (ubuntu, mint etc) works just fine in india. If it works in india, I wonder what stops it from not working in united states. Hell, not even so called unixes, BSDs have this much plug and play support for the internet devices here in India. Almost any 3G/4G device in India is supported under debian without much hassle.
I don't know why wireless access should be an issue. If Indians are in position to switch to linux despite slow network and other hardware issues, I don't think people in US and Canada will have any trouble on connectivity end. Most of the time If it's USB device plugged for connectivity, there is hardly anything you have to worry about it on linux. :up:
-mahesh2k (August 14, 2012, 09:17 PM)
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While I can appreciate the sentiment (and am somewhat envious, btw), that's not always the case here. While I suspect it is provider dependent, I don't really have anything to support that opinion. Nonetheless, what I (and many others, according to forae & blogs) have experienced is that it requires significant effort to get wireless- or even cabled - networking working (somehow, networking working just sounds wrong :-[). Not everyone has that problem, of course, but may of us do. In fact, I've on occasion had problems getting even USB to work. Now, that may be due to the really crappy network interface that exists in the US, I don't know. Or it could be OEM dissuasion, again, I don't know. (But I did have a conversation with tech support once that pretty much implied that if it ain't Win or Mac, it ain't at all.) But it's a fact that many folk here have significant troubles with installation.
-barney (August 14, 2012, 09:44 PM)
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Barney, I don't go with the views from the comments and blogs, however I do feel their frustration. These days I do the testing for linux on my own before making strong opinion. The thing with linux commentary on the internet is that whether it's windows fan or mac fanatic, they will always think linux is just not ready or they will just remark on linux for their own agenda. I do understand that there are still some issues with old hardware but I personally found that windows also lacks for supporting them in the same way.
As for the device support, here is on example. Windows XP, Vista and 7 were tested in aztech corp for the network modules on device testing, here in india. You know the worst part of this testing? None of the ISP's in india are included in the list of supported networks for the last 3 versions of windows. We have region specific version on sale here but none of these versions list ISP and telecom providers here. You want to know the funny part now? Get a copy of debian distro or child distro like mint or ubuntu. When you go on installing the distro, It will list all the telecom operators in India. It also autoconnects to the network if you're plugging in android devices or any other phone with USB support. One personal example I can give you here is that my old Dlink modem is unusable on any modern windows as it lacks the driver support. I just connected that modem to ubuntu 12.04 and it is working fine.
That's not all, pick any new device from the amazon.com (e.g. Kindle, nook, ipad )and it will detect the device via USB just fine. Except ipad, most of the android devices are linux underneath. As valve and id software going into the linux area, I see only improvement from the hardware side.
I am not saying there are not any problems with linux but windows and mac are just getting worst for support here in this region, despite the fact that large number of testing work for them is done here, which is shame.
barney:
I am not saying there are not any problems with linux but windows and mac are just getting worst for support here in this region, despite the fact that large number of testing work for them is done here, which is shame.
-mahesh2k (August 14, 2012, 11:25 PM)
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My point was not that Win or Mac is better - personally, any OS that works to do what I need done is acceptable - just that there does seem to be a bias here, and it's not always on the user side. I've been shut down for using a *nix OS in the past - before I knew to check out providers instead of using the cheapest one :-[.
Yes hardware support has significantly improved, as has ISP support. But we were discussing why past experiences have alienated a number of US users. I speak only from personal knowledge ... I'm not judging any OS, nor any particular hardware (although I could), just pointing out what has happened in the past here to a significant number of folk.
I haven't had any USB problems with any of the last six (6) or seven (7) distros I've tried, but my first try at Ubuntu was a disaster as far as USB was concerned. And wireless was nonexistent. That's not a complaint, it's a simple report. While I've watched Linux grow in the US asfewartw4eqfgdgfdoasja'kja[seskaqFJDAowefrwE';Fa
40hz:
In some respects hardware support is better under Linux than Windows with mainstream distros. You certainly have better support for many 'legacy' devices and printers. And it was nice plugging in a Canon USB scanner and having it just work with Mint recently. Which was surprising since the software Canon supplied with the device was a nightmare to get installed and working properly under XP.
But Barney raises a significant point which I'll risk summarizing as : Once burned - twice shy. And that is one PR issue the Linux world needs to deal with far better than it has to date.
Unfortunately, for the Linux community, Ubuntu's way of dealing with it is by distancing itself from the larger Linux community. If you go to their current homepage they now refer to their product as The Ubuntu Operating System. Not Linux-based Ubuntu. Just the Ubuntu operating system:
Fast, secure and stylishly simple, the Ubuntu operating system is used by 20 million people worldwide every day.
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Want to know how they explain why it's free? See below - notice there's no mention up front about the FSF - but there is mention of IBM, Google, Wikipedia, and Mozilla.
Ubuntu is brilliant. It's no wonder our users ask how all this can be free. The answer is simple.
It’s open source.
Our global community is made up of thousands of people who want to help build the best open-source operating system in the world. They share their time and skills to make sure that Ubuntu keeps getting better and better. From IBM to Google, Firefox to Wikipedia – some of today's best software is based on an open-source model. Shared efforts. Shared principles. No cost.
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If you follow the llnk for more information, you get a page where Ubuntu provides a summary of open source principles and philosophy which they refer to as Our Philosophy. And also make mention of their (as in Ubuntu's) global community. True, there are links to the FSF and OSI buried further down 'below the fold.' But again, this is another example of Ubuntu assuming ownership (or strongly implying their ownership) of something it would have been more honest to say they adopted or embraced.
ZD's Steve Vaughan-Nichols did an op-ed piece recently where he looked at this phenomenon. He concludes that it's simply a pragmatic response to dealing with a negative public perception that can no longer be changed:
You see this isn't about reality. It's about perception. Canonical and Google rather than try to fight how Linux is seen by most people and the Microsoft trolls who do their best to keep the Linux lies alive, have chosen to dodge the Linux brand issue entirely.
Hence, Google emphasizes Android and Chrome OS and Canonical talks about Ubuntu. They're doing this because this works. By doing this, they avoid all the negative FUD that Microsoft fans and trolls keep throwing at Linux and they get to set the conversation. My wife, Clara Boza, a branding expert and former CMO, tells me that this is smart marketing and that it works. Given Android's success and that Chrome OS and Ubuntu seem to be among the most popular Linux distributions, I think she's right.
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He then goes on to say:
For those of who are Linux fans, it's annoying. We should keep in mind though that the end goal is getting Linux into the hands of users. If they happen to call it Android, Chrome OS, or Ubuntu is that really such a bad thing? I don't think so.
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Actually, it is a bad thing. Very bad. It fragments the larger community and undermines the social contract. And it also sets the stage for Canonical, Red Hat (and more recently SUSE) to start doing things like cut their own separate deal (or planned deal) with Microsoft to address UEFI/SecureBoot concerns.
But all this has been previously discussed at DoCo, and the current moves towards accommodating Microsoft are better left for a separate thread.
And I'm really starting to get quite disgusted about all this, so I'm gonna stop writing for now.
Later! ;) :Thmbsup:
TaoPhoenix:
Hmm, I'm in the group of once-excited by Linux, and now while I respect it, I'm just worn out and will stay with Windows. Speaking of Ubuntu, *they* were responsible for some of my worst "burned four times" experiences! (Details some other time).
For me it was about the reasons *why* to consider moving to Linux. Blue Screens really don't happen much anymore, some companies are using more and more complicated proprietary software that only exists on Windows, and updates just seem to be really hard and that bothers me. Having to write over with the new version of the OS just feels wrong to me. And in Ubuntu's case they come really really fast!
Another reason is social. I agree with those who think that Vista could have been a great Linux opportunity. Instead it just drifted away somewhere, and Win7 mostly got the job done. I think we even have one more chance with the UI-formerly-known-as-Metro. But I don't see the tidal wave of momentum on the brink of overtaking Windows just yet.
So part of me just wants to use my energy on something else until the "popular opinion" just "Decides" that the time has come for Linux.
40hz:
So part of me just wants to use my energy on something else until the "popular opinion" just "Decides" that the time has come for Linux.
-TaoPhoenix (August 15, 2012, 09:36 AM)
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I'm not so much driven by making Linux the dominant desktop OS like some (fewer and fewer) in the Linux community are.
I'm more concerned with preserving an open computing environment in both software and hardware. Because left to their own devices, all the industrial dragons (i.e. Apple, Microsoft, Oracle, et al) are doing their best to bring about the passage of what can only be described as a computing 'enclosure' movement.
So to me it's not at all important that Linux triumphs - whatever that means. With technology, "best in class" is no guarantee of massive public adoption. At least if history is anything to go by. And Linux is far from perfect. I'm more concerned Linux stay alive and be usable on generally available hardware. Hardware that doesn't need to be hacked or jailbroken before you're allowed to do what you want with it.
I'm not "fighting" to "convert" anybody. Linux is just a tool - so why argue? Use whatever you like best AFAIC. However, it is very important to me, and I think the world in general, that Linux (or something like it) continue to thrive and be available. And above all - still be usable.
Because the alternative is dangerous.
Personal computing let the genie out of the bottle and empowered the common people. Now there are forces at work which are doing their damnedest to put it all back in the bottle before these same 'common' people start talking too much, asking too many questions, and ultimately demanding too much accountability from those who are running things.
Linux and the whole F/OSS movement is about far bigger things than just personal computing. At its heart, it's really a movement for fundamental and positive societal change. It just so happens to present itself in the guise of a technology initiative. Those (and there are many) who only see it as '"free software" miss most of what's driving it.
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