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Last post Author Topic: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks  (Read 40959 times)

IainB

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Microsoft OneNote - how to make it your 21st century Zettelkasten PIM.
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2015, 10:40:58 PM »
I hope that this is/will be a useful experiential tip.
The Zettelkasten (German Wikipedia) was invented/devised by Niklas Luhmann (German Wikipedia) (1927-1998) as an information collecting, numeric cross-referencing and indexing system for handwritten/typed information held on sheets of approx. A5 paper/card.
Quote
1954-1962 he was the administrative officer in Lüneburg, 1954 to 1955 at the Higher Administrative Court Lüneburg assistant to the president. During this time he also began to build up his card indexes (Zettelkasten). 1960/61 Luhmann received a further training grant for Harvard University, which he could perceive by his leave of absence. (German Wikipedia)
_________________________________
I gather that wooden cabinets holding an array of suitably-sized filing trays were built to the inventor's design, for his use.
There is even a computerised Zettelkasten available from a German website: Zettelkasten. Nach dem Vorbild von Niklas Luhmann - Eine OpenSource-Literaturkartei für Windows, Macintosh (Mac OS X) und Linux.
Several years back, I had wanted to make a computerised Zettelkasten PIM (Personal Information Manager) for all of my information, but the problem was that my information included not only text-based information, but also, for example:
  • Images.
  • Images displaying text in them.
  • Sound files of spoken words, and songs/music.
  • Video files.
  • Clippings of text and images from browser screens.
  • Various document files - MS-Word, RTF, PDF, Excel spreadsheets, Access databases, etc.

I was not a fan of MS OneNote per se, but in 2007, whilst trialling MS OneNote (as part of the client-based MS Office 2007 Pro suite under the $10 Corporate Home Use licence) I realised that if I adapted my work methods and took the relatively steep learning curve to make optimum use of OneNote's functionality, then I could probably enable it to be used to max effect to implement a Zettelkasten. So that is what I decided to do as a suck-it-and-see experiment, and the experiment has gone very well to date, and updates to MS Office (and OneNote) and Onetastic for Microsoft OneNote have made things significantly easier towards that end.
Though I settled on OneNote, I did trial other PIMs, and I still keep an eye on them and any new PIMs I come across (including, for example, Zoot, Evernote, Zotero, Wezinc, Connected Text, and WizNote) but they didn't/don't meet my past and newly-discovered requirements, which include, for example:

  • Mandatory: Notes had to be able to be client-based and/or web-based by user choice (it's all the same to OneNote, and even if it is web-based, client-based copy is always retained as cache and backup, regardless, for working offline).
  • Mandatory: There had to be faithful retention of metadata, formatting, images, links .etc from web page capture (or partial capture). OneNote is not necessarily the best tool for this, but it is pretty good. (The best I've seen for this are actually Scrapbook and Zotero, which use the same engine for copying web pages, and WizNote gets a special mention as it is amazingly good.)
  • Mandatory: It had to have OLE (Object Linking and Embedding) of files, which files may be saved/embedded within a note, or as a link to the file on hard or Cloud drives. In particular, integration with MS Office files and Internet Explorer was a must in this regard (though my preferred browser is Firefox).
  • Mandatory: Integration with Win7/8/10 OS services - *especially* Windows Desktop Search (so a Notebook's contents can be searched via OneNote OR WDS).
  • Mandatory: OCR of any text in saved images, which text then becomes searchable via OneNote OR WDS, and extractable.
  • Mandatory: Ability to record and/or play sound files, and have spoken words in the files searchable via OneNote OR WDS. This can be a great timesaver when you have, say, a recorded radio interview, speech or meeting, but no written transcript of same.
  • Mandatory: Hyperlinking of notes in Zettelkasten fashion, but using alphameric reference terms rather than Luhmann's purely numeric indexing, and using the same square-bracketed [[reference term]] hyperlinking approach as used in Wikis.  In OneNote, if you type in [[reference term]], it will search for an existing Note page in any of the Notebooks (only opened ones, I think) with that exact title, and then link to it, but if there is none, then it will automatically create a new Note page with that title, at the bottom of the section you are currently in, so that you can put in any relevant text later, but meanwhile it leaves you in the text where you were currently writing. These hyperlinked (wiki-like) pages can be moved around and OneNote will keep track of them. If the user is unsure whether "reference term" is correct for an existing hyperlinked Note title, then a search within OneNote for all or some of the terms in "reference term", will find them, with any OneNote page titles bearing the terms being listed first in the search results, which makes it easy to find them.
  • Mandatory: To be able to have Notes structured in hierarchically-arranged collections if/as required. (OneNote offers a 2 or 3-pane display for this, as required.)
  • Mandatory: The ability to create/paste/edit text, tables and numeric tables and bits of Excel spreadsheets into a Note, and perform simple math operations on them as well as in a line of typed text (e.g., to calculate the product of 2 x 12 as being equal to 24).
  • Mandatory: The ability to convert a table in a Note into a spreadsheet (for those occasions when you realise you have exceeded the capability of OneNote).
  • Mandatory: Very flexible rich text formatting capability, similar to MS Word, but without having to use MS Word and able to be copied into an MS Word (or any other RTF) document or email (especially per MS Outlook) with formatting intact.
  • Highly desirable: Ability to integrate with MS Outlook for exchanging Notes, emails, tasks, flags and tags.

So, as a journey, I'm pretty much there, but there are still improvements I would like to see in OneNote and my Zettelkasten PIM structure. The add-ons and Macros available from OneTastic might certainly help to mitigate some of the shortcomings I perceive in OneNote, to some extent, but they seem to have been kinda fringe items so far.  The only qualm I have is that, having explored probably around 80% of OneNote functionality and capability, there is absolutely nothing that I have seen out there that even comes close to it, so I could risk becoming dependent on OneNote, and I don't really like that. To some extent, because of what I have seen in the possibilities of what OneNote is able to do - e.g., automatic OCR capture, output and indexing of text in images, automatic capture and indexation of deciphered spoken words in sound files - OneNote has caused me to become much more demanding such that this functionality now becomes part of my mandatory requirements set.
I don't want to go backwards.

As Ren said in the Ren and Stimpy cartoon episode "Space Madness":
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"I'm not hitch-hiking anymore - I'm riding!"
______________________________________
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 11:10:49 PM by IainB »

kfitting

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2015, 05:50:32 AM »
While Zettelkasten should probably be its own thread, I would invite you to look here http://zettelkasten.de/posts/how-to-program-yourself-productivity/ for a discussion about why you dont need fancy programs to do Zettelkasten... it has greatly influenced my own thoughts on the subject. Another good resource is http://takingnotenow.blogspot.com/.

wraith808

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2015, 06:58:36 AM »
He has a reply to this post: http://takingnotenow...ur-21st-century.html

dr_andus

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2015, 08:36:59 AM »
you dont need fancy programs to do Zettelkasten...

The question is what is "fancy" or "essential" in this context for a program to function as a Zettelkasten or function more effectively (making full use of the advantages computers offer to a chest of drawers with paper index cards).

One of the issues is whether a Zettelkasten becomes more effective the easier it makes the creation of direct links between notes (such as in a wiki) or whether it is just an added non-essential luxury. Christian argues that You Don't Need a Wiki, while for Manfred enabling easier Note Connections wiki-style makes a Zettelkasten fulfil its function as your external brain better.

I'd argue that some additional bells and whistles that directly focus on improving the capturing, retrieval, analysis, linking, and synthesis of notes can make a big difference to a Zettelkasten, especially as one of its purposes is to discover new relationships between notes, which is easier if you have some alternative ways to organise and visualise the data, rather than just have a flat list of plain text notes that aren't even linked directly.

The other debate here is whether OneNote could be a good Zettelkasten (as IainB argues above), or its skeumorphism gets in the way, as Manfred argues, and who prefers ConnectedText, a desktop wiki instead.

As for OneNote, I still haven't seen an example or explanation of how it handles thousands or tens of thousands of notes, and in the absence of that I have a hard time seeing how it would work as a Zettelkasten in the long run.

kfitting

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2015, 11:59:15 AM »
One thing I'd add to Dr Andus' comments, is that you do have to be careful to not confuse the tool with the task (which, I believe, is the main point of Christian's article). I was considering ConnectedText, until I started using a plaintext approach (due to the article).

Then I realized that my major problem was that I had no idea how to split my notes/thoughts. I could spend tons of money on a tool and still use it poorly. Now that I've gotten better at the mechanics involved, I'm going back and reviewing tools (including ConnectedText, I was not trying to criticize it above!) to see what they can add and how they make things easier for my requirements.

dr_andus

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2015, 12:45:04 PM »
@kfitting - no worries, there is no problem with criticising any particular tool, that's what debate is for. I understand the advantages of the plain text method and I wish ConnectedText (CT) would save into individual plain text files e.g. onto Dropbox, so that the notes could be accessed from any device and across platforms.

In fact, just for that reason, I was recently considering WorkFlowy as a Zettelkasten platform, and I think it could work well (and it is a de facto plain text method, though it outputs into one single plain text file). But then I'd lose the analytical tools of CT (various automations, visualisations, and special queries), and its organising features (categories, properties, transclusions, outliners etc.), besides the image support, and I'm not ready to trade those in.

wraith808

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2015, 02:28:10 PM »
One thing I'd add to Dr Andus' comments, is that you do have to be careful to not confuse the tool with the task (which, I believe, is the main point of Christian's article). I was considering ConnectedText, until I started using a plaintext approach (due to the article).

Then I realized that my major problem was that I had no idea how to split my notes/thoughts. I could spend tons of money on a tool and still use it poorly. Now that I've gotten better at the mechanics involved, I'm going back and reviewing tools (including ConnectedText, I was not trying to criticize it above!) to see what they can add and how they make things easier for my requirements.

This is a very salient lesson for many things that we seek to solve with software.  Process first, then you can more adequately find the right software for the job, IMO.

IainB

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2015, 05:14:43 PM »
While Zettelkasten should probably be its own thread, I would invite you to look here http://zettelkasten.de/posts/how-to-program-yourself-productivity/ for a discussion about why you dont need fancy programs to do Zettelkasten... it has greatly influenced my own thoughts on the subject. Another good resource is http://takingnotenow.blogspot.com/.

I don't see a case as to why "Zettelkasten should probably be its own thread" - at least not on the DC forum. It would be an absolute yawn, since, in terms of a being a PIM, it is an archaic tool, and I would not have been interested in it per se.
However, seven years ago, the implemented concept of a numerical linking/indexing system for a card index (despite some obvious limitations) was very interesting to me, because this is what a database can be organised to do, and in fact was already being done, for example, in Wiki tools (using hyperlinking).

There are a lot of good website links about Zettelkasten, and I for one wouldn't want to add to them, but a lot of the discussion seems to take a purist approach and treat a Zettelkasten as some sort of key subject area for just text information. As I pointed out in the OP, in 2007 my information already included a lot more than just text. I had been very frustrated in my search for a PIM that could cope with it all.
I really had not liked MS OneNote at all in 2007. I already understood that OneNote was able to cope with the diverse information (data types) that I classed amongst my information needs, but it's information organisation was bit of a mystery. It was only when I belatedly saw that it included an option for Wki-like linking that the penny dropped and I realised that it might have the potential to be a Zettelkasten PIM (i.e., able to use an extension of the Zettelkasten numeric key indexing system, to include alphameric keys). So that is when I started my experiment.
I had previously spent a good deal of time examining Wiki tools to this end, but had given up as they could not handle all my data requirements.

Luhmann was arguably ahead of his time, with computer technology catching up later on to enable the concept for implementation in more widely useful form on computers in today's more diverse information age, as relatively generic computer software.

wraith808

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2015, 05:37:52 PM »
I don't see a case as to why "Zettelkasten should probably be its own thread" - at least not on the DC forum. It would be an absolute yawn, since, in terms of a being a PIM, it is an archaic tool, and I would not have been interested in it per se.


I think he meant the process/platform, not the tool.

IainB

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2015, 12:31:25 AM »
I don't see a case as to why "Zettelkasten should probably be its own thread" - at least not on the DC forum. It would be an absolute yawn, since, in terms of a being a PIM, it is an archaic tool, and I would not have been interested in it per se.
I think he meant the process/platform, not the tool.

Eh? Well, thanks for translating for me, but, as a pragmatist and with my process re-engineering hat on, I have to say that there doesn't seem to be very much to the "process/platform" - that is, if you take the approach that the Zettelkasten is potentially implementable with alphameric keys as just a form of generic Wiki.
Would we actually gain in knowledge from discussing the Zettelkasten "process/platform" operation in the context of Wiki technology? I'd answer that with a "Probably not".
The Zettelkasten (card index) idea, though useful, can be effectively described - from our modern perspective - as being just a kind of Wiki-on-paper, you see, but using numeric indexes/links and with inherent shortcomings in terms of TOCs/indexes. That would seem like a bit of a yawn to me. The fountain pen was a pretty good idea too, but there again, would we actually gain in knowledge from discussing its operation in the context of touch-sensitive tablet pens? I'd answer that with a "Probably not".

If someone feels sufficiently strongly about it, or if they feel that the numerous other websites don't do the subject matter justice, then don't let any of that stop them from setting up a separate thread or website on Zettelkasten (or fountain pens). One can easily find and review Zettelkasten-related (or fountain pen-related) websites (see links above, for Zettelkasten examples, or just do a DuckGo search on "Zettelkasten").

This discussion thread is about "Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks", and I was sharing the tip that, if one wanted a Zettelkasten PIM (as I did) - and one that can handle a diverse set of data types and information as per my possibly somewhat demanding requirements - then MS OneNote can be used to do that (QED). Furthermore, it would seem that OneNote (so far) is the only feasible candidate that I have come across whilst proving the above concept in my 8-year experiment. I mean, I've tried (and have kept retrying) all sorts of old and new tools as potential alternatives, over the 8 years, but they just don't pass muster on those requirements - and it's a bit of a travesty that they don't, in my view.

By the way:
As for OneNote, I still haven't seen an example or explanation of how it handles thousands or tens of thousands of notes, and in the absence of that I have a hard time seeing how it would work as a Zettelkasten in the long run.

Well, judging from my own humble experience, one has had at least 8 years to build one's own example, and also to go look at some other examples, but on the other hand I suppose one shouldn't rush into these things too hastily.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 03:01:30 AM by IainB »

superboyac

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2015, 03:15:11 AM »
Boy Iain, sometimes you blow me away.  I have always avoiding committing to Onenote, but you make some strong points...with many years experience with it.

Right now, i've settled on a lot of random pieces of software to do everything, but I am interested in some of your suite integration techniques that you value.  I probably use up to 5 notetakers and outliners on a regular basis right now.

IainB

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2015, 04:27:30 AM »
He has a reply to this post: http://takingnotenow...ur-21st-century.html
Actually, that's not quite correct. I have had Taking Note in my Bazqux feed reader/aggregator for some time, under the category of "PIM-related". My feed-reader showed that "MK" had made a post on that blog: Taking note: My Zettelkasten
I thought it was a very interesting post, and that it covered the subject rather well, but on reading it I realised that the author (MK) had started to come to some of the same/similar conclusions that I had started to come to 7 or so years ago and which I used as a basis for my experiment. Yet here he was, apparently still seeking. So I thought it might be useful if I described the crucial aspects of my ongoing experiment. Because I had been solely focused on my own PIM requirements, up until then it hadn't really occurred to me that other people might be looking for something similar and might be able to learn from my experiment with building a Zettelkasten PIM using OneNote - an experiment that I sort of blundered into.

So I put some effort into writing and posting a comment, along the lines of the tip above, and was interested to see in my feed=reader the next day a new post in Taking Note entitled: Taking note: What I don't Like about OneNote
It seemed to be a somewhat irrational rant against OneNote, and it looked as though it might have been triggered in part/whole by my comment. I went to look at my comment to see what I had written that could have so upset the author, only to find that my comment had been deleted after I posted it - I know I had posted it, because I had to make it twice - once using a Wordpress signon (which didn't work) and once more using a Google signon (which did work) and I checked that it had "stuck" after writing it that 2nd time.

I figured that my comment must have been simply unwanted for some reason and thus was deleted - it clearly did not seem to have aligned with the blog owner's views at any rate. I don't mind if people delete my unwanted comments from their blogs - why shouldn't they if they want?  So, I mentally dismissed the matter and, rather than waste the effort, I thought I would re-use the content of my comment and post it as a useful tip in this discussion thread, and that is what I did (I hope it proves useful anyway). I did not refer to any posts on Taking Note, or mine being deleted, since that was not relevant to what I had to say.

Now I see to my utter astonishment that MK has written a further post apparently referring to and countering my post in this DC forum, entitled Taking note: Is OneNote Your 21st-Century Zettelkasten Pim?

I don't understand it. Maybe the objective is to get clicks or something.

IainB

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2015, 06:33:01 AM »
Boy Iain, sometimes you blow me away.  I have always avoiding committing to Onenote, but you make some strong points...with many years experience with it.
Right now, i've settled on a lot of random pieces of software to do everything, but I am interested in some of your suite integration techniques that you value.  I probably use up to 5 notetakers and outliners on a regular basis right now.

I had avoided committing to OneNote as well, and I didn't like it - I was resistant to change - but, after forcing myself to adapt to it and make optimum use of the functionality that it offers and doing a thorough suck-it-and see job, I have been grudgingly very impressed.

One of the things I look for in software (an unwritten mandatory requirement) is stability.
My primary PIM was InfoSelect v8, and was always rock solid - still is. This has now become my secondary PIM.
In OneNote 2007, the application was stable most of the time, but would sometimes crash for no apparent reason, though seemed to recover with no problems. Over the years I have had some interesting problems which I learned from and have noted some of these in this discussion thread, but overall the application has been progressively improved and is rock solid. It has now become my primary PIM.

In OneNote 2016, I can still sometimes make it crash or go into a suspended ("not responding") state by overloading it it with a task queue, but it always recovers or restarts just fine.
I had one crash at the migration point between OneNote v2013 and v2016 and that left me with a permanent "cannot sync" (to the Cloud) for one Notebook. Only last night did I track this down to a single corrupted record - which was the only thing that was not syncing . The rest of the database was intact, and the corrupted record was intact and uncorrupted in the Cloud-based primary Notebook (so it was only the local offline cache that held the bad record). I need to write up the fix to this problem, in this thread, when I have figured out the simplest way.

I have tried keeping Notebooks all in the Cloud or all on the Client, or split between the two. I have had lots of separate Notebooks and then merged several into one humungusly big one. Nothing like this seems to upset the application or its efficiency. This is working with Notebooks which have by now (since 2007) become gigabytes in size, singly and collectively.
Though Client-based Notebooks are preferable for me (I am paranoid), I have to say that Cloud-based Notebooks on OneDrive probably offer, in theory if not in practice, a better guarantee of backup/recovery and better peace-of-mind, but I am having difficulty accepting this. The clincher is seeing how the Cloud-based Notebooks are so reliable, easily accessible and can be shared via the web, though the web-based OneNote UI itself is rubbish and nothing like as good/flexible/functional as the Client-based application.
By the way, the "$FREE" OneNote web UI (discussed elsewhere in the DC forum) is a cynically minimally-functioning product and should be avoided IMO. I would recommend that the user goes for the Client application every time (which necessitates MS Office), or not at all.

One of the biggest gripes I have with OneNote is the reduced ergonomic efficiency of the UI between OneNote 2007 and 2016. The present washed-out glary Metro colour scheme is rubbish IMO, and this goes for the MS Office suite of products in general.
I keep tabs on the MS Office and MS OneNote user forums, and am appalled by the hundreds of daft user problems with OneNote. They seem mainly all due to user error or inadequate knowledge/training in the proper use of the OneNote product.

My conclusion from that is that OneNote should not be used by novices unless they undergo or subject themselves to some training. The product has a relatively steep learning curve and is sophisticated but somewhat unintuitive, and can do far more than the typical user is likely to appreciate at first. I am still learning about it, and at the same time it is undergoing significant change and improvement such that a problem that I might have figured out a fix for yesterday cannot necessarily be fixed the same way tomorrow after a product update.

So, a lot of caveats here then.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 06:48:14 AM by IainB »

wraith808

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2015, 11:23:48 AM »
Now I see to my utter astonishment that MK has written a further post apparently referring to and countering my post in this DC forum, entitled Taking note: Is OneNote Your 21st-Century Zettelkasten Pim?

I don't get it.  First you say that's not quite it, and then you link the same post as a reply.  Meh?

IainB

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2015, 03:43:38 PM »
Actually, that's not quite correct
Now I see to my utter astonishment that MK has written a further post apparently referring to and countering my post in this DC forum, entitled Taking note: Is OneNote Your 21st-Century Zettelkasten Pim?
I don't get it.  First you say that's not quite it, and then you link the same post as a reply.  Meh?

I had been trying to put the matter into its correct context, which you would probably have been unaware of at the time.
Sorry if I did not communicate that terribly well. I shall try again with a sequential "timeline" (as best I can figure it out):
  • MK made a very interesting post about Zettelkasten and Wikis on the Taking Note blog.
  • I made a published and (as I had thought) helpful Zettelkasten PIM related comment on the Taking Note blog.
  • MK's  initial response was a blog post rant about his dislike of OneNote, apparently triggered by my previously published comment on his blog. MK made this initial response as a response to my published and (as I had thought) helpful comment. My comment was of essentially the same content as my initial Zettelkasten PIM tip subsequently posted to this thread.
  • Then my published comment on Taking Note was deleted (and I presumed that was because it was unwanted).
  • So as not to waste the knowledge-sharing I then posted my initial Zettelkasten PIM tip subsequently to this DCF thread. In that post, I made no reference to the Taking Note blog.
  • MK then apparently posted a second response as a blog entry on Taking Note, linking to my initial Zettelkasten PIM tip on the DCF forum. It's rather like he might have been following me and needed to "put the matter straight", though I had no argument with him.
  • You referred to  that second response of MK's as a response to my initial Zettelkasten PIM tip posted on this DCF thread. However, that was not quite correct, as it was actually more of a compounded response to the foregoing events (QED), rather than being just a response to my initial Zettelkasten PIM tip on this DCF thread.

As I wrote:
...I don't understand it. Maybe the objective is to get clicks or something.

So your statement now apparently makes two of us that don't understand it for some reason (or lack thereof). It's absurd.

kuehnm

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2015, 04:33:45 PM »
Slartibartfast,
I'd wish you would read the entirety of my posts. It would also help if you read the comments. If you had, you would know that your timeline is seriously wrong. It's actually this:
    1. I made a post about Zettelkasten and Wikis on the Taking Note blog.
    2. You tried to publish "a Zettelkasten PIM related comment" on the Taking Note blog on (December 3, 2015 at around 9:59 PM).
    3. The blog entry was twice deleted very soon after you made it. In other words, you either did not succeed in making the blog post or you deleted it. I did not delete it and would not have deleted it. But I was not sure I could respond to it directly.
    4. I wrote a blog post on OneNote on December 04, 2015. 10:11 AM that I characterized as a rant. I said that it was occasioned by recent and not-so recent comments. And I also said that "my notes don't have to be both client-based and web-based, I don't need formatting, images, links, etc. from web-page capture to be retained, OLE editing, OCR, Excel Spreadsheets, MS-Outlook exchange (the last two should be obvious after what I said before, but ...)" which you would have recognized, but no one else. I did not mention your name or pseudonym
    4. You published part of what you said in your comments on December 04, 2015, 10:40:58 PM, that is 29 minutes after my post of 10:11 AM.
    5. I then responded on December 05, 2015 5:45 AM to your post (of December 04, 2015, 10:40) on this forum.in which I clearly say that your "contribution was first posted in a slightly different form as a comment on My Zettelkasten. Much to my regret, it was, however, deleted again by the author," as that was the only explanation I had for its disappearance. It was also the first time I addressed your pseudonym directly (or indirectly, for that matter).
    ... The rest should be clear to anyone who followed this Forum and the blog.
   I have no idea why you want to accuse me of having deleted your entry. In fact, given the fact that I have explained this several times and you refuse to even acknowledge it, I am asking myself whether this last attempt to set things straight, makes even sense.

I also regret to bother everyone with these details (but I have been accused ...)
Manfred Kuehn

P.S.: Much of this misunderstanding could have been avoided, if you could be e-mailed, for that is what I would have done, had I had your address.

 
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 04:51:57 PM by kuehnm, Reason: correction »

dr_andus

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #66 on: December 06, 2015, 05:04:09 PM »
As for OneNote, I still haven't seen an example or explanation of how it handles thousands or tens of thousands of notes, and in the absence of that I have a hard time seeing how it would work as a Zettelkasten in the long run.

Well, judging from my own humble experience, one has had at least 8 years to build one's own example, and also to go look at some other examples, but on the other hand I suppose one shouldn't rush into these things too hastily.

Thanks. As soon as I finish building my time machine, I'll go back to 2007 and start building my OneNote Zettelkasten, so that I can see what it would look like today.

But in the meantime, considering that you actually have such a OneNote Zettelkasten, would you mind sharing your experience about how you deal with navigating thousands of notes in OneNote?

There aren't such examples out there. One would need direct access into such a huge database to fully understand how it scales up.

IainB

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #67 on: December 06, 2015, 05:59:36 PM »
...But in the meantime, considering that you actually have such a OneNote Zettelkasten, would you mind sharing your experience about how you deal with navigating thousands of notes in OneNote?
There aren't such examples out there. One would need direct access into such a huge database to fully understand how it scales up.

I navigate using the OneNote 2 or 3-pane GUI and search across "this"page/notebook or all notebooks, also WDS (as described above).
Notes can be structured hierarchically or randomly.
There is also a Tagging system and Wiki-like links, which can be very useful.
As to scalability, it seems to be fine. If you read my notes above, you will see that I haven't yet been able to break it.
I would suggest "Nullius in verba" - motto of the Royal Society, London. Literally, "Take nobody's word for it; see for yourself".

IainB

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2015, 06:04:01 PM »
@kuehnm:
Slartibartfast, ...

Sorry, I don't have any interest in becoming involved in a slanging match over such a trivial matter.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 08:46:03 PM by IainB »

dr_andus

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2015, 11:41:21 AM »
Here is one implementation of the Zettelkasten method using OneNote:

OneNote Review • Zettelkasten Method

Angry Thinker

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2015, 12:21:41 PM »
Have a look at this post: OneNote Review, which talks about the use of OneNote as a Zettelkasten.
Update 2015-12-17: sorry I just noticed that above this there is Dr Andus' reference to the OneNote article. My apologies.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 04:59:09 AM by Angry Thinker »

IainB

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2015, 07:02:03 AM »
Here is one implementation of the Zettelkasten method using OneNote:
OneNote Review • Zettelkasten Method
__________________________

Yes, there's probably very little new under the sun. There may even be thousands of us who have spent years experimenting with OneNote as a Zettelkasten without broadcasting the fact.
The one that you link to is very interesting, though it is a "purist" approach - i.e., does not conform to my singularly expanded working definition of "information" (data types). That is why I deliberately called the OneNote approach that I tooK Microsoft OneNote - how to make it your 21st century Zettelkasten PIM.
However, what makes me scratch my head a bit is the use of a formal numbering/indexing system - which would seem to be redundant in the experiment I undertook with its more recently-discovered "mandatory requirements".

Angry Thinker

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2015, 07:39:03 AM »
Here is one implementation of the Zettelkasten method using OneNote:
OneNote Review • Zettelkasten Method
__________________________

Yes, there's probably very little new under the sun. There may even be thousands of us who have spent years experimenting with OneNote as a Zettelkasten without broadcasting the fact.
The one that you link to is very interesting, though it is a "purist" approach - i.e., does not conform to my singularly expanded working definition of "information" (data types). That is why I deliberately called the OneNote approach that I tooK Microsoft OneNote - how to make it your 21st century Zettelkasten PIM.
However, what makes me scratch my head a bit is the use of a formal numbering/indexing system - which would seem to be redundant in the experiment I undertook with its more recently-discovered "mandatory requirements".

Can you explain what you mean by my singularly expanded working definition of "information"? Do you mean that you use OneNote for more than just as a Zettelkasten? The author of the post seems to have focused his article to the use as a Zettelkasten, but does not rule out other uses too, in fact 1 of the screenshots shows other types of notebooks.
Also, how/why is a numbering system redundant in a Zettelkasten use?

It seems to me that the author's Zettelkasten notebook is for specific types notes, whereas you seem to collectively call any and all your notes stored in OneNote a Zettelkasten. Am I right?

dr_andus

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2015, 01:01:33 PM »
It seems to me that the author's Zettelkasten notebook is for specific types notes, whereas you seem to collectively call any and all your notes stored in OneNote a Zettelkasten. Am I right?

I think there is a bit of a terminological confusion here. IainB seems to use "Zettelkasten" to denote a database where you can store any type of digital data in variety of formats and states of processing (including raw captured data), while DutchPete's post is showing the use of OneNote for one possible implementation of Luhmann's Zettelkasten method specifically.

One big difference is that the latter is not really for the capture of unprocessed raw data (such as the videos, spreadsheets etc. that IainB includes) but for the capture, storage, recall and analysis of processed information, i.e. one's own notes and thoughts about some underlying data (which itself does not need to be included), such as one's reading notes or thoughts triggered by a movie or a piece of music (but not the underlying book, movie, or music).

IainB

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Re: Microsoft OneNote - some experiential Tips & Tricks
« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2015, 04:49:56 PM »
Can you explain what you mean by my singularly expanded working definition of "information"? Do you mean that you use OneNote for more than just as a Zettelkasten? The author of the post seems to have focused his article to the use as a Zettelkasten, but does not rule out other uses too, in fact 1 of the screenshots shows other types of notebooks.
Also, how/why is a numbering system redundant in a Zettelkasten use?

It seems to me that the author's Zettelkasten notebook is for specific types notes, whereas you seem to collectively call any and all your notes stored in OneNote a Zettelkasten. Am I right?

1. Definition of information data types: My working definition includes all of those data types I listed in the post about "Zettelkasten" (for which, I gather, the English is "card index"). The card index is the physical filing system. Yes, you are right in that I "...collectively call any and all your notes stored in OneNote..." information and it is all able to be treated as such, to a greater or lesser extent. I don't recall whether the author of that interesting post necessarily defines all the information data types he is using, but it seemed to me - and I could be wrong, of course - that there was a focus on text, and I was unsure whether that included (say) image OCRed text, voice text searching, etc.

2. Uses for OneNote: Certainly, as you suggest, my use of OneNote is for more than just as a Zettelkasten (card index) and always has been. I mean, of what use would a card index be to anyone in this day and age? That's why I referred to it as a 21st century Zettelkasten PIM. I do not think of it as being a "Zettelkasten" now, but as an integrated PIM and KM (Knowledge Management) system - though the KM component still needs development as it is arguably a bit rudimentary at present, and I would like to employ a taxonomy more aligned with KM use (see below).

3. Numbering system: The article referred to includes the use of a numbering system and I presume that it has use and applicability for the author's purposes. He refers to being able to continue it to infinity. The OneNote system employs the use of hyperlinks (a sort of computerised card index referencing/indexing system), so, for me, I see no need for anything other than the alphameric wiki-like hyperlinking - using meaningful (to a human) alphameric terms rather than an artificial numbering scheme), which linking can even be used to link to a Note Page Title or a sub-section within a Note anywhere in the database.

4. Taxonomy: OneNote does not force an artificial framework of reference on the user, and is thus flexible in that regard. As things currently stand, there is no specific taxonomy for my PIM/KM, but I am working towards the idea of aligning it with the Topic Maps standard (ISO-13250), which defines a method to organise information in a way that enhances  navigation  and  learning. It may be that this becomes a mandatory requirement for my PIM/KM. but yet is infeasible (i.e., cannot be implemented) with OneNote, in which case my newly-discovered requirements might have outgrown the extent of OneNote's usefulness.

So I shall probably remain a CRIMPer.   :o
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 04:47:51 PM by IainB, Reason: Minor correction to formatting to make better sense. »