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Author Topic: DOTCOM saga - updates  (Read 29209 times)
IainB
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« on: June 28, 2012, 06:52:03 AM »

And, following the seemingly excessively violent and over-the-top Dotcom New Zealand police raid at the behest of the US authorities, and the US apparently potentially illegal(?) takedown of the Dotcom business, there's this:
Kim Dotcom - John Banks Song
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8CvRSZxqk_I[youtube]
Apparently, John Banks (who is head of the NZ ACT political party) seems to have "forgotten all about" (amongst other things) having asked for Dotcom to split his donation to the party into 2 x $25,000 "anonymous" cheques, so as to avoid having to declare them as a $50,000 donation from a defined benefactor during the elections, or something. Wouldn't pass muster as being legit in an audit. Probably would have broken some elections laws there, if it were true.
This is a good rap song! - valid political comment using the contemporary musical idiom.    Thmbsup
According to Ars technica in their post Kim Dotcom lampoons New Zealand MP in his new rap song, the rap was made using the Black Eyed Peas' Printz Board.
from Ars technica:
Quote
Last Friday, Prime Minister John Key denied any knowledge of Dotcom "until the day before the raids even though his senior ministers, a string of senior civil servants, and his own electorate staff were involved in matters relating to him. It has emerged that staff in the Prime Minister's own department were aware of Dotcom and his bid through the Overseas Investment Office to buy the mansion in which he lived with his family."

It seems that the NZ justice system has, albeit slowly, arrived at a conclusion to its deliberations on this case, so far. This would now seem to have become a very serious issue for the NZ judiciary to address.
Scoop.co.nz reports on 2012-06-28: Kim Dotcom wins court challenge that police action unlawful
The Judgement has been posted by courtsofnz.govt.nz in a pdf document here.


It is discussed in an arstechnicha post of 2012-06-28: Mega-victory: Kim Dotcom search warrants "invalid," mansion raid "illegal" - A New Zealand judge savages the process used to target Megaupload's Kim Dotcom.
(You can read the post at the link above. It looks like quite a decent review of the judgement and the issues.)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 07:03:28 AM by IainB; Reason: Minor corrections. » Logged
IainB
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« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2012, 07:11:28 AM »

There is also a fairly detailed post by NZ Herald: Dotcom searches illegal: Judge
- which has a useful link to a Listener article: Kim Dotcom and Megaupload: a 2012 timeline
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« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2012, 11:01:48 AM »

Sigh... Maybe I'm being cynical, but...

It doesn't matter. It's all completely irrelevant.

They completely destroyed Megaupload. It's gone. It will NEVER recover. Other sites have been shutting down in mass numbers because they're all scared to shit of the same thing happening to them. Megaupload was the first summary execution.

Now, just ask yourself if the CRIMINALS that raided his house will be held to account for their CRIMES.

Ummm... No.

They will NEVER be prosecuted for their CRIMES. They are immune to prosecution. They are above the law.

What do you do with a CRIMINAL government/system?

And THAT, my friends, is why the US of A has the second amendment.

(This crap just sets me off...)
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« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2012, 11:48:37 AM »

They completely destroyed Megaupload. It's gone. It will NEVER recover. Other sites have been shutting down in mass numbers because they're all scared to shit of the same thing happening to them. Megaupload was the first summary execution.

Agreed. They never gave a damn if the charges would "stick" ... They just wanted to sit back and watch the Shock and Awe ripple effect. The Italians did the same type of thing in Chicago back in the 40s. But the Feds thought that was criminal.
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IainB
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« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2012, 08:12:58 PM »

They completely destroyed Megaupload. It's gone. It will NEVER recover. Other sites have been shutting down in mass numbers because they're all scared to shit of the same thing happening to them. Megaupload was the first summary execution.
Agreed. They never gave a damn if the charges would "stick" ... They just wanted to sit back and watch the Shock and Awe ripple effect. The Italians did the same type of thing in Chicago back in the 40s. But the Feds thought that was criminal.

You may well both be right - and if you are, then it is a sad indictment of the state of the US nation. I know next to nothing about the US legal/judicial system, or Kim Dotcom or MegaUpload to be able to make informed comment about them. If you recall, I commented about the NZ TV coverage of the Dotcom raid in NZ (see the post copied below). That comment was made by me as a Kiwi (an NZ citizen) who had great faith in the integrity of the police and NZ Defence Force personnel - I felt sure that the justification for the raid would become apparent as events unfolded:
I missed seeing the NZ TV3 programme when it aired, so watched it tonight on replay video:
Kim Dotcom's head of security, Wayne Tempero, walks John Campbell through the events on January 20 in a global TV exclusive.
Campbell Live enters Kim Dotcom's Coatesville mansion - Video
Campbell Live talks to Assistant Police Commissioner Malcolm Burgess, who signed off on the Dotcom police operation:
Police defend actions during Dotcom raid - Video
It doesn't make sense. I have the highest regard for the integrity of the NZ Defence and police people that I have had the opportunity to work with over the years. I feel sure there must be a lot more behind the charges against Mr Dotcom and possibly others, for the police to have acted in the way they did. For all we know, the police may be prohibited from telling us what it is.
"There were 70-odd officers distributed across a number of properties, executing up to 10 search warrants during the course of the day...
...There were 20 or 30 [officers] initially [at Dotcom's property] to seize the place..."

However, the published ruling of New Zealand High Court judge Helen Winkelmann:
Quote
"...who today ripped the "invalid" warrant and the subsequent search and seizure in a 56-page decision." per arstechnica - here.
- would apparently confirm that, as the arstechnica post put it, the raid:
Quote
"...was also totally illegal."

To summarise: (as I understand it at this stage)
  • The raid was carried out illegally by NZ police/military/SS officers (where "SS" means some kind of Special Services/Secret Services);
  • This illegal (QED) act was carried out at the apparently documented behest of the police/SS agencies of a foreign power (USA);
  • - which documentation is also apparently suspect and may be unlawful (per overseas media);
  • The result is almost certainly likely to have entailed the collapse of the huge MegaUpload service/business, and the serious discombobulation and/or significant consequential financial loss for Dotcom's business, family, business associates, and legitimate customers of MegaUpload.

My view (FWIW):
  • Presumably, speedy apology and reparation/restitution to the above parties (Dotcom's business, family, business associates, and legitimate customers of MegaUpload) would be in order.
  • We could probably expect something like this (apology and reparation/restitution) being proposed at some stage by the objective New Zealand judiciary (whether the High Court judge, Helen Winkelmann or her judicial colleagues) - which reasonable expectation would seem to be supported by the pretty incisive judgement above.
  • It would be reasonable to suppose that if an illegal action of such violence and severity can be executed against one NZ citizen (assuming Dotcom is a citizen) by the NZ officers of the law and/or NZ Defence personnel, then it could be executed against any citizen.
  • If it could be carried out without the penalty of legally-enforced reparation/restitution, then that would be a nightmare.

Any citizen (myself included) would probably find such prospect to be a frightening thought. For example, if it became a reality, then it would mean that NZ had become quite literally little different to a Fascist Banana Republic.
I do not for a moment believe that to be the case - quite the opposite. NZ has usually shown itself - by its actions - to be a great little country to live in and with a strong backbone - worth having on your side.
For this reason, I reckon the above penalty - in the form of legally-enforced reparation/restitution - should be punitive as opposed to being based on replacement cost-of-consequential-loss. This would send a clear signal outwards. Damages are usually awarded by courts on one basis or the other - punitive or replacement - but not both. You would tend to see punitive damages being awarded to set an example and discourage recurrence of similar illegal behaviours/actions.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 08:19:55 PM by IainB; Reason: Minor corrections. » Logged
Renegade
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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2012, 08:48:44 PM »

@IainB - I don't think I share your optimism there.

  • The raid was carried out illegally by NZ police/military/SS officers (where "SS" means some kind of Special Services/Secret Services);
  • This illegal (QED) act was carried out at the apparently documented behest of the police/SS agencies of a foreign power (USA);

My little rant wasn't really directed at the US criminals. Everyone knows the US is a terrorist police state. My rant was directed at the NZ officials that were responsible for cooperating with the US terrorists, which they are -- just ask any upload site owner that shut down if they were left in terror after MegaUpload was summarily executed. And yes - it was a summary execution. There was no trial and MegaUpload was completely destroyed in a day.

So what does this say about the NZ willingness to cooperate with terrorists? They went along with it all. Well, you can't very well unshoot a gun, and in this case, they simply can't undo the damage that they've done. All at the behest of a bunch of terrorists that are bought and paid for by the media mafia.

It's shameful. And they must be held to account for what they did for there to be justice. The "law" cannot be above the law. (I've ranted in the past about the rule of law, and this is exactly why.)

When you say that if they can do it to him, they can do it to anyone - complete and total 110% agreement there. (Reminds me of "First they came...")

Regarding your point about damages - I am curious to know what will happen there. It's quite impossible to actually repay the actual damage, so punitive damages seem more reasonable. But then again, I am curious to know whether criminal charges will be laid for what was a crime. I think THAT is the real measure of justice here -- i.e. Will the decision makers that were responsible for the crime there be personally held to account for their crimes? (It would be even better to see those responsible on the US side also criminally charged for their part.)

I hope that this is a 1-off travesty for justice in NZ. I really do hope that your optimism is well founded and that my cynicism is unwarranted.
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IainB
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« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2012, 12:07:53 AM »

...
...My little rant wasn't really directed at the US criminals. Everyone knows the US is a terrorist police state. My rant was directed at the NZ officials that were responsible for cooperating with the US terrorists, which they are -- just ask any upload site owner that shut down if they were left in terror after MegaUpload was summarily executed. And yes - it was a summary execution. There was no trial and MegaUpload was completely destroyed in a day.
So what does this say about the NZ willingness to cooperate with terrorists? They went along with it all...
...
...It's shameful. And they must be held to account for what they did for there to be justice. The "law" cannot be above the law.
...

Yes, I understand those were the points you were making.
And I am optimistic, yes, but admittedly I do usually expect the best of human nature.
I don't know whether the authorities that executed the Dotcom raid could actually have criminal charges laid against them in an NZ court, though a UN court might be able to do that. However, any illegal actions of the people involved could presumably be a different matter.

Liability for illegal acts by a government's authorities generally rests with that government. It can't (wouldn't) take itself to court. One of the press reports suggested that the NZ government was going to have to foot the bill for restoration of justice to Dotcom+ Etc., and I feel sure that is now being considered anyway.
I wouldn't jump too quickly to the conclusion that because the NZ authorities responded with apparent alacrity to the pressure for action from the US authorities, that the NZ party is by definition inherently corrupt/illegal. The Dotcom raid seems to have been a stupid thing to do - or at least to do in an illegal fashion. Some BIG mistakes seem to have been made. You yourself have said that if it looks like collaboration or stupidity, you'd guess it was the latter every time (OWTTE). Same principle could apply here.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the investigation (which would presumably now be taking place) doesn't lead to some people being privately severely admonished and then quietly but rapidly retired, or promoted sideways into admin. positions, where they can't then screw anything else up ever again. This sort of thing must be excruciatingly embarrassing to the government, because it does rather demonstrate that someone (the government - and by association, the Prime Minister) might well have been guilty of collaborating in what was an illegal act - or at least negligent or asleep at the helm. Not a good look, and the voters are not so unsophisticated that they wouldn't notice this and remember, come the next election. So the government would probably want to be seen rectifying this shambolic mess in a legal, professional and ethical fashion.

The whole Dotcom thing seems to have been an illegal/criminal act instigated by the US government/SS. The NZ government/SS may have been forced/duped (I hope) into complying/collaborating.
The last NZ incident that I know of, where a criminal act sponsored by a foreign government (state terrorism) was committed in NZ was the case of the Sinking of the MV Rainbow Warrior.

As it says in Wikipedia: (see the actual link for embedded hyperlinks in Wikipedia)

Some years ago, I was listening to a TVNZ interview with the then-retired ex-PM David Lange, where he was discussing this incident and its aftermath. I recall that he said he had no option but to comply with the French government's insistence to send Prieur and Mafart from NZ prison to the French military base on Hao Atoll, and that their early release was no surprise. He indicated that it went entirely against the grain for him and his ethics. It was wrong, and NZ were paid money to breach their own laws for the punishment sentence of these two French murderers, who committed their crime at the French government's direction. (OWTTE)
He explained that NZ was this insignificant little wart on the backside of the planet (the southern hemisphere), with a tiny population (then about 3.5million), and with a tiny and fragile economy which lived entirely by its ability to trade competitively with world markets, especially in pastoral produce (meat and dairy products).
"The big guys can twist your arm, and you have to give in to the bully." I think he said (OWTTE).
He reckoned that if he had refused to comply with the French "request", then the markets for NZ produce could mysteriously be closed to NZ. NZ would have been boycotted/blocked - especially in the EU, which had historically been favourably inclined towards NZ products - not least because of the NZ commitment to the Allies in WW2 and it being the "food basket" for Britain during that war.

I could be wrong, of course, but my take on this Dotcom thing is that it could well be that NZ may have already been having its arm twisted big time by an even bigger bully than France, to do the Dotcom raid. And they (NZ government) could have been in such panicky haste to comply before their arm was broken that they stuffed up the legal paperwork by mistake. So now it's all going to have to be PR damage control, and possibly some more unexplained judicial changes of judgement, as in the case of Prieur and Mafart.
Who knows?
We may one day be told the entire truth by our PM John Keys, when he is being interviewed in his retirement.

One thing that the Prieur and Mafart case showed to us all was that, if necessary for the government, then the judiciary are clearly going to do exactly what they are told, and from that time henceforth they must always be regarded as being unable to exist in a proper and independent way. So you can't expect too much of them.
Unfortunately for NZ, the NZ judiciary have been pushing for a long time to run their own highest court of appeal, and thus come out from under the Court of Privy Council (UK). They have succeeded in this, with apparently nary a peep from civil rights proponents, or the public, or the media.
The Supreme Court of New Zealand is now the highest court and the court of last resort in New Zealand, having formally come into existence on 1 January 2004. It was necessary to erect an approx. NZ$80 million building to house the court in Wellington, the capital.
NZ thus has lost access to what has been described as the finest independent collection of legal brains on the planet (The Privy Council), and gained a narrowed and partisan judiciary which acts under government directive (QED).
However, I would say that the published ruling of New Zealand High Court judge Helen Winkelmann in the Dotcom case at least does give me some cause for hope.
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IainB
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« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2012, 12:37:42 AM »

This isn't the sort of publicity or rep that NZ really needs right now..if at any time.
From Sydney Morning Herald: NZ's piracy ruling 'embarrasses' FBI
NZ are USA FBI stooges? Maybe not.
Never mind, I'm sure Obama would describe NZ as "...the US' best/closest allies, and punch above their weight."
(Cringe.)
Insincerity BS: US smaller allies are the US' "best/closest allies, and punch above their weight".
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erYpXzE9Pxs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erYpXzE9Pxs</a>
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2012, 04:25:57 AM »

I'm not fully clear Iain - who would be expected to pay damages if awarded?

I cant see the US paying anything. If the NZ "SS" officers/department (i.e. the NZ government) had to pay, they wouldn't do this again quite so casually, and neither would other countries with any sense.
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IainB
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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2012, 05:25:06 AM »

...who would be expected to pay damages if awarded?
Well, as it has already been formally adjudged by the High Court judicary to be an illegal action, then I would presume the NZ government should offer to pay reparations, rather than that they have to be taken to court to oblige them to part with monies under some kind of civil action for committing what could be a criminal offence - i.e., illegal breaking and entering, false imprisonment, destruction and taking of property and business assets, with weapons and major intimidation thrown in for good measure - which crimes at least in part could go under the definition of "Home invasion" under NZ law.
There's probably more, but that could do for starters.

Criminal charges would otherwise usually be laid by the police against third parties, and not against themselves as a group.

So such reparation would come out of government coffers, which would really mean the taxpayers had just obligingly funded the police to have what in hindsight was apparently a real-live but totally over-the-top, uncalled-for and unnecessary kickass SWAT-fest exercise against apparently innocent taxpayers. Kinda kinky really.
The Americans seem to have this down to a fine art. We in NZ are probably really only rank amateurs by comparison, and are only just beginning to catch up.
For example, I suppose it's a bit like this:
EXCLUSIVE VIDEO: SWAT Raids Home Investigating Threats Made To EPD Officers & Families
Some of the comments by the police and the readers are priceless.
For example:
Quote
Police officer: "We're not going to let these types of people take over and have us scared in our own homes."
Commenter: "No, instead you're going to have innocent citizens that you're sworn to serve and to protect be scared in their own homes."
No wonder there are 70% "Furious" readers on the thermometer in the screenshot below:
You'd probably have seen something similar in NZ if they had put a thermometer up re the Dotcom raid.


« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 07:13:35 AM by IainB; Reason: Minor corrections. » Logged
wraith808
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2012, 12:23:27 PM »

Everyone knows the US is a terrorist police state.

Maybe this should be taken to the soapbox?  I ignore it for a reason.  I might not believe in everything that the US does, and disagree with quite a bit.  But to stand by while such flamebait is posted?  A little too much to ask.  And I don't want to bring such things into the mainstream of DC- doesn't usually work out.
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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2012, 12:33:19 PM »

Everyone knows the US is a terrorist police state.

Maybe this should be taken to the soapbox?  I ignore it for a reason.  I might not believe in everything that the US does, and disagree with quite a bit.  But to stand by while such flamebait is posted?  A little too much to ask.  And I don't want to bring such things into the mainstream of DC- doesn't usually work out.

Good point. In the future, I'll try to start a topic in Soap Box and simply refer to that there. I know I can be extreme at times.

So, point taken. I'll try to keep it out of the Living Room.
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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2012, 01:33:37 PM »

Heh  - it's only extreme until it's you. Time to make a Canary Server!

"Today I was not arrested for copyright violations".
"Today I was not arrested for copyright violations".
"Today I was not arrested for copyright violations".
(Crickets)
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IainB
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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2012, 05:04:39 PM »

@TaoPhoenix:
^ +1   Very droll. Loved it.    Thmbsup
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IainB
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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2012, 02:26:13 AM »

Everyone knows the US is a terrorist police state.
Maybe this should be taken to the soapbox?  I ignore it for a reason.  I might not believe in everything that the US does, and disagree with quite a bit.  But to stand by while such flamebait is posted?  A little too much to ask.  And I don't want to bring such things into the mainstream of DC- doesn't usually work out.
Good point. In the future, I'll try to start a topic in Soap Box and simply refer to that there. I know I can be extreme at times.
So, point taken. I'll try to keep it out of the Living Room.

I did not perceive what you said as being worthy of the label "flamebait".
"Dangerous anarchic rebellious speech", perhaps   Grin   -  but I certainly didn't suppose that you were intending to goad anyone to debate the point. On the contrary, it seems that you were just stating your POV.
Everyone - including you and @wraith808 - is entitled to their POV, no matter how wrong they may be.     Wink
And what you said didn't goad me or make me feel obliged to respond either. It was harmless.
So please don't censor yourself on my behalf - I usually take what you say with a pinch of salt anyway...    Grin
Likewise, I would not deem to censor you.

The subject is the DOTCOM saga - updates, and the news shows what really would seem to be such an enormous need by the US government authorities to pursue DOTCOM that they are prepared to breach due legal process to do it, regardless, and NZ government seems to have been complicit in this.
The reason why this could be of interest to the Internet community - never mind the general public - is that we have recently come out of a major worldwide protest blackout (including the DCF website and thousands of others around the world). This was a protest against censorship of the Internet by/at the instigation of the US (SOPA, etc.). The protest was apparently successful, having got the thing stalled - for a time, at any rate.
But the DOTCOM thing looks like it could be intended as a major and deliberately exemplary attack by the RIAA/MAFIAA on what is apparently only supposed to be a fraudulent file-sharing operation. I say "supposed", because the NZ lawyers have apparently asked for evidence/substantiation of the criminal charges the US have against DOTCOM, which would back up the extradition request, but so far reports indicate that this evidence has not been provided.
Maybe it has, but it can't be declared/published and must be kept secret for some quite valid reason.

I've suggested before the view that the NZ police/SS are, as a rule, generally highly proficient and don't do things without good reason.
The exception to this for many NZers' could be the incredible and excessive police violence apparently authorised by the government to suppress the 1981 protests against the racially-biased Springboks rugby tour to NZ. (If this all doesn't make sense to you, then read up on it.)
That seemed to have caused a great deal of civil unrest, and certainly was not to be repeated.

So, up until the point of the publication of the ruling of New Zealand High Court judge Helen Winkelmann, the Dotcom raid had seemed disquietingly and unnecessarily excessively violent, but the public assumption would probably generally have been that Dotcom et al must have been involved in some pretty dodgy business for the authorities to take such extreme measures in the arrests - and there were reported to be about 10 arrests/raids involved, not just the one on Dotcom's residence.

As per the article in the Sydney Morning Herald: (my emphasis)
Quote
Dotcom's US-based lawyer, Ira Rothken, said the ruling was an embarrassment, especially as US authorities have called the case the largest in copyright history.
''One would think, with such a large case, that they would have a higher standard of care in how they conducted themselves,'' he said. ''In terms of egregious behaviour, this is at the high end of the scale of egregious, wrongful intrusion on privacy.''
Mr Rothken said the ruling supported the view that NZ police were acting at the FBI's beck and call.

I think the reasonable question to ask here could be "Why was this done and in this manner?", and then wait for a clear and open explanation.
Sans explanation, some people could draw their own conclusions and might well feel justified in saying that it illustrates that NZ is becoming a police state - never mind the US - though I couldn't possibly agree on ether count, of course.

But the central issue for me is whether this sorry affair is actually really just another major political onslaught on Internet freedoms by the US government, through the agency of the FBI.
Presumably it is not for nothing that Steve Wozniak, co-founder of Apple Inc. and a founding member of the nonprofit EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation) has sought to return frozen Megaupload files to users, and said that authorities need to release some of Dotcom's frozen financial assets so he can pay his mounting legal fees - see here.

The raid on Dotcom's home - which he reportedly does not own, but rents(?) - took place in a suburb called Coatesville, Auckland, NZ. Auckland is a relatively small city, but the largest in NZ, with a pop. of approx. 500K. I live in Auckland. This raid was virtually "on my doorstep". Aucklanders might be forgiven for feeling uneasy and intimidated around police officers at present - as might the inhabitants of Evansville, USA. In the Aucklanders' case though, it could be inferred from the High Court judgement that potentially it could be anybody's turn next, and seemingly on any pretext.

And there is this too: Little fish caught in Dotcom net
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IainB
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« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2012, 07:09:23 AM »

...
...Everyone knows the US is a terrorist police state.
I didn't know this to be a fact, and so I went googling to find out.
EDIT 2012-07-02 1521hrs NZT: This diverting comment was off-topic and @Renegade has since copied the subject of his comment across to the Soap Box, and I have copied this comment there also. Hence the spoiler:
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 10:26:04 PM by IainB; Reason: Minor edits. » Logged
IainB
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« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2012, 09:17:29 AM »

Looks like some real wins may be imminent for the MPAA - Using Megaupload Case as Backdoor SOPA/PIPA Scheme.
You may still have time to sign the brief support petition and spread the word before the hearing/decision referred to below.
Quote
  • To add weight to their plea, a new campaign titled “The Internet vs. Hollywood” is being launched today in which members of the public are invited to add their name as supporter of the brief.
  • These are worrying developments according to Demand Progress, not just for Megaupload users, but also for the hundreds of millions of people who store files on Google, Dropbox, Facebook, Tumblr, Instagram, YouTube, Flickr and other online services.
  • 2012-06-28: MPAA Using Megaupload Case as Backdoor SOPA, Court Hears
  • 2012-06-28: The Internet v. Hollywood - Demand Progress petition
  • 2012-06-30: Megaupload Judge To Issue Order On Return Of User Data “Shortly”
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 09:38:20 AM by IainB » Logged
wraith808
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« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2012, 07:37:59 PM »

Everyone knows the US is a terrorist police state.
Maybe this should be taken to the soapbox?  I ignore it for a reason.  I might not believe in everything that the US does, and disagree with quite a bit.  But to stand by while such flamebait is posted?  A little too much to ask.  And I don't want to bring such things into the mainstream of DC- doesn't usually work out.
Good point. In the future, I'll try to start a topic in Soap Box and simply refer to that there. I know I can be extreme at times.
So, point taken. I'll try to keep it out of the Living Room.

I did not perceive what you said as being worthy of the label "flamebait".
"Dangerous anarchic rebellious speech", perhaps   Grin   -  but I certainly didn't suppose that you were intending to goad anyone to debate the point. On the contrary, it seems that you were just stating your POV.
Everyone - including you and @wraith808 - is entitled to their POV, no matter how wrong they may be.     Wink
And what you said didn't goad me or make me feel obliged to respond either. It was harmless.

Perhaps flamebait was too harsh of a word, but the complaint is still valid.  We have a soap box for a reason- for conversations of these types.  Is asking someone to take it there denying them of their ability to respond?  It was also not even tangential to the conversation, i.e. you had to go google to find those particular instances to 'support' your position.  If something isn't part of the conversation, and is brought up, and is likely to bait people... well, perhaps the designation wasn't too far off?  If we didn't have an area, I would have said something in response... or not.  But I used a third option as given by the forum and by my ignoring that area for this very reason because I come here for light conversation and discussion about software and things peripheral to that and coding, which the DOTCOM saga is a part of.  This particular tangent isn't that.
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IainB
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« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2012, 09:04:32 PM »

@wraith808:

@Renegade has moved this discussion subject across to the Soap Box:
Well, it seems obvious enough to me that the US is a terrorist police state, and I'd posted that in another thread, but it belongs in Soap Box.
I certainly don't mean it as any kind of flamebait. It simply seems obvious. Kind of like "it's dark at night" or "the sun is hot".
...
I have copied my post there, also.
So we can continue the discussion in that forum.
(Thanks.)
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wraith808
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« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2012, 02:00:21 PM »

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IainB
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« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2012, 02:33:58 AM »

I've copied this post (above) to the relevant discussion in the Soap Box:
Re: "Terrorist Police State" [NSFW?]
...
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 02:40:14 AM by IainB » Logged
wraith808
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« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2012, 10:32:20 AM »

I've copied this post (above) to the relevant discussion in the Soap Box:
Re: "Terrorist Police State" [NSFW?]
...

Why?  It wasn't to start discussion or anything, especially as I said in there that I don't want to discuss?  And of course you could have done it without the announcement.  But... whatever... have fun.
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IainB
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« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2012, 08:56:27 AM »

Interesting update from techdirt:
FBI Continues To Insist There's No Reason For Kim Dotcom To Be Able To See The Evidence Against Him
Quote
from the of-course-not dept

We already noted that the New Zealand judicial system apparently isn't as willing as the US expected to rubberstamp approval of the extradition of Kim Dotcom. Part of that ruling was a requirement that the US turn over the evidence they're using against Dotcom, so that he can counter it in fighting against the extradition. However, it appears that the US is still fighting this, having the New Zealand prosecutor (who is fighting on their behalf) argue that Dotcom should only be allowed to see a single document out of the 22 million emails the FBI collected and that this really isn't a matter for the New Zealand courts to concern themselves with, as they should just let the Americans handle it.
  • Crown lawyer John Pike argued that there was no need for Dotcom to have access because he was not being tried in New Zealand.
  • The judge in the extradition case needed only to decide if there was a case for him to answer in the US, Mr Pike said, and that question was answered by the record of case.

That's kind of amazing when you think about it. He shouldn't be allowed to even see the evidence against him... even if it might prove that there is no "case for him to answer to in the US." That's what's so troubling about the US position on cases like this one and the O'Dwyer/TVshack case. They seem to assume that it shouldn't be of any concern if they drag someone thousands of miles across oceans to face trumped up charges in the US.
It's always nice to see justice being done. That's one thing I like to see in this case too.
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IainB
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« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2012, 06:58:45 AM »

News via torrent freak: Kim Dotcom’s Extradition Hearing Delayed Until 2013
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IainB
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« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2012, 12:04:57 AM »

Not a development in the DOTCOM saga per se, but an interesting comment apparently coming from the the NZ judge to hear the Dotcom extradition case.
US "the Enemy" Says Dotcom Judge
Quote
Posted by samzenpus on Monday July 16, @10:14AM
from the know-your-enemy dept.

First time accepted submitter Flere Imsaho writes "During the NutHui Internet conference last week, the NZ judge to hear the Dotcom extradition case was speaking on the Trans Pacific Partnership agreement and how the U.S. entertainment industry is pushing to make region code hacking illegal, when he said 'Under TPP and the American Digital Millennium copyright provisions you will not be able to do that, that will be prohibited ... if you do you will be a criminal — that's what will happen. Even before the 2008 amendments it wasn't criminalized. There are all sorts of ways this whole thing is being ramped up and if I could use Russell [Brown's] tweet from earlier on: we have met the enemy and he is [the] U.S.'"
This gives me some hope that the principles of justice and liberty might be alive and well in the minds of the judiciary - in NZ, at least.
We shall see.
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