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Author Topic: Is Linux just a hobby?  (Read 27088 times)
dantheman
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« on: May 21, 2012, 08:00:50 AM »

I could have said, "Is Linux for real?!"

I've spent some considerable time over the last week trying to get into Linux,
especially with LinuxMint which seems to be the second best after Ubuntu.

Decided to give the recent 201204 Debian edition a spin (learning steep is high) and it was hard to get it installed (dual boot).
My major problem with it was opening programs like Firefox, OpenOffice (oops! LibreOffice).
Thought it was bad on my Windows7 but they take forever to open even on Linux!
And... you can't press ctrl+shift+Esc to know if they're runnin' or not.
And then Firefox jams.
You click on the exit button, nothing happens.  mad
Again, you can't ctrl+shift+Esc to see if it's going tilt or not.
And yet, i gave this Debian edition all the juice (and more!) that was required on installation.
Besides, many pages in Firefox never look as good as on Windows.

Then i decided to give LinuxMint's latest Maya Cinnamon edition a try.
Same problem.

Heck, my friend has Firefox running on an old XP and it performs twice as fast as on my system!  embarassed

What gives? I don't know.

Running here on Windows 7 Home Ed. Intel Duo ; 2.52Ghz ; 4G memory with 500G hard disk.
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TaoPhoenix
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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2012, 09:07:29 AM »


Ah yes, the grand old OS wars.
I had a thread a month back describing my own Linux adventures, with the same themes on different issues.

Linux is this eternal Dark Horse that won't ever quite die but first MS then Apple then maybe Google have done a good job collectively making sure that it never gets a cultural foothold. Yet. But to use fancy business school language, if some billionaire decides to be "disruptive" and sink some scary money into "middleware" for Linux, then it could come crashing through.

So at its best the devs can't really get "fired" from working on Linux, (threat of which is what makes regular work miserable), but then at the same time no one wants to do "boring" development work either, and the bugs that slip through are what make it feel choppy.
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Deozaan
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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2012, 09:17:47 AM »

You just need to learn what the Debian version of ctrl-shift-esc is. Thmbsup

Try opening the Software Center thingy (in Ubuntu) and searching for Task Manager or Process Manager or something.
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mahesh2k
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« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2012, 10:07:33 AM »

You have to set the shortcut for system monitor on debian. As for hobby remark, linux is used on datacenters and is powering billion sites on the internet and this number is increasing. I just don't understand people don't appreciate the free things in life but they do appreciate walled gardens aka prison.  Wink


Quote
Then i decided to give LinuxMint's latest Maya Cinnamon edition a try.
Same problem.

Check your swap partition space. Or have you even not set it? if there is no swap space or low space then yes, this type of problem persist. Show us your partition log in linux.

Quote
Intel Duo ; 2.52Ghz ; 4G memory with 500G hard disk.
This system is capable of running even modern window managers in linux. I am not sure what makes you think it is slow unless ofcourse you're using buggy build. I don't know why you're using (often) unstable builds of debian instead of ubuntu or Mint.  Why are you expecting CTRL-ALT-DEL to work the same way on linux just because windows offered that to you. Does windows offers running linux program inside windows officially? So why should CTRL-SHIFT-ESC should work exactly like windows? You can set any shortkey for it. If you're using gnome, you can use gconf-edit and do lot of shortcut variations. Why you're expecting intelligent linux to act like dumb windows? tongue
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dantheman
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« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2012, 11:24:16 AM »

LM Debian is supposed to be the future.
Guess the future isn't here yet...  cheesy

LM 13 Maya Cinnamon is supposed to be built on latest Ubuntu.
Is that stable enough?

The installation process automatically assigns the amount for swap.

The fun with Windows 7 is that it just works.
You can tweak it to your liking after but you don't have to look in 50 forums before you get an satisfactory answer.

For sure, if some billionaire would come around, things would change,
but then i suppose it would become somebody else's monopoly.

BTW, my Windows 7 works just fine.
Never an unexpected delay for any program.



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barney
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« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2012, 04:26:01 PM »

He-he  smiley.  Linux is fun when I have time to play with it, but serious work has to be done in Windows.  Mind you, that's me, not necessarily the world.  My biggest Linux issue is documentation - no, man pages don't cut it  Sad.  Most of 'em seem to be written for folk who already know ninety percent of the answer  cheesy.  Seems there's a severe lack of technical writers in the open source community  Wink.

Well, there is one (1) other issue, that being the command line - but, then, I have that same issue in Windows.  The issue is not typing commands, but remembering the commands to type.  Had the same issue with OS/2.  When /d has a different meaning for every command you use, you soon run out of organic RAM to store all the variances  tongue.

On the other hand, my local server is running a very old version of Red Hat - very old  ohmy! - and works just fine.  I don't have to mess with it.

As I said, it's fun to work with Linux distros, but the two (2) biggest failings throughout the various distros, to my thinking, is the lack of drivers - which is curable only by mainstream adoption - and a serious lack of, or inadequate, documentation.  And as long as I restrict myself to distros that support available drivers for my hardware, Linux works just fine.  No speed penalties, as long as I learn the rules and play by them.

That said, I have Puppy on a USB stick for those times when I have to go into recovery mode  tongue tongue.  In that case, it just works  Thmbsup.

Oh, on the subject of documentation, Jack Wallen has a fairly interesting article on crowdsourced documentation for Fedora.  Might be worth a read for Linux and non-Linux users alike.
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« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2012, 06:11:51 PM »

It's not really fair to use a certain operating system your whole life (Windows) and then try out a different one that functions on different paradigms (Debian/Ubuntu) for a few hours and then say this new one is stupid/useless/whatever simply because you can't figure it out.

What you are experiencing is probably what your mom/grandma feels like any time she uses her computer! Spend time with it. Learn how to do the things you want to do with it, in the way it is done on that OS. Then, once it's not your personal knowledge/skill with the OS that is holding you back, but actually the OS itself, you can make a more qualified judgement on whether or not the OS is stupid/useless/whatever.

I recently read a "blog entry" by an Apple user who tried out Windows 7 and thought it was the most useless OS ever, simply because he couldn't figure things out, and his go-to Windows expert apparently wasn't expert enough to know about setting Environment Variables. It's really painful to read knowing that the guy is condemning the entire OS based on some very fundamental, beginner's mistakes. And he's a pretty smart guy. He just has been using a different paradigm (Apple OSes) for years and years and years and doesn't know how to do things the Microsoft way.

If you're interested, you can read it here: My Adventures with Windows 7.
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TaoPhoenix
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« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2012, 06:44:03 PM »

He-he  smiley.  Linux is fun when I have time to play with it, but serious work has to be done in Windows.  Mind you, that's me, not necessarily the world.  My biggest Linux issue is documentation - no, man pages don't cut it  Sad.  Most of 'em seem to be written for folk who already know ninety percent of the answer  cheesy.  Seems there's a severe lack of technical writers in the open source community  Wink.

Well, there is one (1) other issue, that being the command line - but, then, I have that same issue in Windows.  The issue is not typing commands, but remembering the commands to type.  Had the same issue with OS/2.  When /d has a different meaning for every command you use, you soon run out of organic RAM to store all the variances  tongue.

On the other hand, my local server is running a very old version of Red Hat - very old  ohmy! - and works just fine.  I don't have to mess with it.

As I said, it's fun to work with Linux distros, but the two (2) biggest failings throughout the various distros, to my thinking, is the lack of drivers - which is curable only by mainstream adoption - and a serious lack of, or inadequate, documentation.  And as long as I restrict myself to distros that support available drivers for my hardware, Linux works just fine.  No speed penalties, as long as I learn the rules and play by them.

That said, I have Puppy on a USB stick for those times when I have to go into recovery mode  tongue tongue.  In that case, it just works  Thmbsup.

Oh, on the subject of documentation, Jack Wallen has a fairly interesting article on crowdsourced documentation for Fedora.  Might be worth a read for Linux and non-Linux users alike.

Hi Barney, I'd like to respond to your post because I believe I have some answers to move the discussion along.

1. Drivers. Debian culture at least (unknown about the other distros) has an extra complexity related to the fact that raw Debian is not supposed to have any proprietary stuff in it, cheating with which is why MS is "why you can only get work done in Windows". So unfortunately, because businesses do what businesses do, including Soap Box territory, drivers are often only "proprietary blobs".

So while I respect the concept of pure Debian, in practice the Linux discussion is about new users wanting to use Linux. New users need help. Needing help usually requires proprietary blobs. Now, uBuntu got where it is, because it is mostly just a "Newbie candycoating" of raw Debian. But even uBuntu isn't perfect (some would say grumpily far from it!) So then you get to a theme I cooked up, borrowing from the Marines, "There Are Many Linux Distros, But This One Is Mine".

So if you, one Barney the New Linux User, needs a distro with drivers... then ... look for a distro with drivers! Forget the "Brand Name of Ubuntu", you need ... drivers. On my particular test box for Linux, Ubuntu made some random decision across all branches that hosed my box after whatever month, something like Oct 2010. But I want my Linux! So, follow the humor: Ubuntu is a Sub-Distro of Debian, but it nuked my particular comp, so I went looking for a Sub-Sub-Debian distro! And I found one - forgive me for copping laziness but check that other thread for the exact name of the distro. Point is, Drivers. Problem 1 solved for me. You just need *your* distro. It doesn't matter if it doesn't work for me.

2. Documentation
"Is that all that's stopping you?" I'd say that's one of the EASIEST hurdles to solve! Put a bit over-simplified, "what do you need documented, and give me three days." I'd say the HARD issues are what to do about Windows only versions of programs that don't behave in Wine, etc etc. Documentation? Bleh! Cake!

And as for remembering commands for the command line? Two answers there. 1, just make a list of commands! A 5 page list should have about everything you need, and if it doesn't, make the font smaller! : )  Now, if the STYLE of the command line annoys you, and I am maybe 5 years too late to be a command line junkie, then look for an App version that puts it in a GUI shell.

And if it doesn't exist? Wait for it, this is where I'll get rained on with oranges... *commission* it! Chances are what is failing you is not some monster Enterprise accounting package, but some low level "dumb" feature that (maybe) only exists in the command line. So, rather than wringing your hands in despair, spend some $80, get a coder to write it for you in 7 hours. That's my killer-app lesson from this year. And it's not just Linux, it's ANY platform. You need X widget, it doesn't exist, don't just stand around for a year hoping someone will make it. Just commission it! This is a US site, most of us have a job, so spend $80 for an app that makes or breaks you! (Heh the one I am doing is falling into my delusions of feature creep so it's getting a little more expensive, but same idea!)

Whew!

Your fighting TWO multi-billion dollar corporations who are trying their various ways of discouraging you from using a Free (!!) operating system, so you have to come at this from a fighter's perspective.

Yours,

--Tao



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TaoPhoenix
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« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2012, 06:51:52 PM »

I'm solid enough on Windows and I don't know what an Environment Variable is either! So there is something to be said about Discoverability.

However, I believe there is a meta-meme here. You have Windows because Everybody Uses Windows, then once you get into Not-Windows, you need a REASON to go Not-Windows. Then once you have a reason to go Not-Windows, you get into the fight of Mac vs Linux. So you need very clear reasons to go Not-Mac and end up on Linux.

Then once you are positive you want Not-Windows Not-Mac, then Linux is a good place to start, then you play with distros and sub-distros until you are happy.
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Renegade
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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2012, 08:35:17 PM »

I'm solid enough on Windows and I don't know what an Environment Variable is either! So there is something to be said about Discoverability.

However, I believe there is a meta-meme here. You have Windows because Everybody Uses Windows, then once you get into Not-Windows, you need a REASON to go Not-Windows. Then once you have a reason to go Not-Windows, you get into the fight of Mac vs Linux. So you need very clear reasons to go Not-Mac and end up on Linux.

Then once you are positive you want Not-Windows Not-Mac, then Linux is a good place to start, then you play with distros and sub-distros until you are happy.

Just a personal opinion, but I think Richard Stallman puts forward all the best arguments to use GNU Linux, if you are looking for a reason.
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dantheman
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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2012, 09:09:17 PM »

It's not really fair to use a certain operating system your whole life (Windows) and then try out a different one that functions on different paradigms (Debian/Ubuntu) for a few hours and then say this new one is stupid/useless/whatever simply because you can't figure it out.
I hope you didn't interpret what i said to mean a plain and simple put down of Linux Mint.
On the contrary, i have great respect for Clem and those who lend him a hand.
Believe me, it's not the first time i try out LM.
When you spend hours trying to figure things out and the result is short of satisfactory,
then the temptation to lose your cool is there. Frustration, you know!
What you are experiencing is probably what your mom/grandma feels like any time she uses her computer! Spend time with it. Learn how to do the things you want to do with it, in the way it is done on that OS. Then, once it's not your personal knowledge/skill with the OS that is holding you back, but actually the OS itself, you can make a more qualified judgement on whether or not the OS is stupid/useless/whatever.

I recently read a "blog entry" by an Apple user who tried out Windows 7 and thought it was the most useless OS ever, simply because he couldn't figure things out, and his go-to Windows expert apparently wasn't expert enough to know about setting Environment Variables. It's really painful to read knowing that the guy is condemning the entire OS based on some very fundamental, beginner's mistakes. And he's a pretty smart guy. He just has been using a different paradigm (Apple OSes) for years and years and years and doesn't know how to do things the Microsoft way.

If you're interested, you can read it here: My Adventures with Windows 7.

This i understand. The fact that i spend most of my time with Windows doesn't help does it.
Do appreciate your post and hope to read up on your article as well as all the other things posted here.
It's starting to be quite a book! smiley
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barney
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« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2012, 09:33:14 PM »

...drivers are often only "proprietary blobs".

Granted.  But we need stuff to run whatever hardware we have.  I can appreciate the purity issue, even endorse it.  But at the end of the day (actually by mid-morning) we need a functional system.  And that system involves both hardware and software.  Without the software, e.g., drivers, the system is a paperweight.  End of story.

Documentation? Bleh! Cake!

If so, it needs more time in the oven  tongue.  What little documentation I've seen assumes perfection.  But that's not a *nix problem, per se, so much as an industry-wide trend.  How often do you see software installation instructions, regardless the OS, that assume a perfect install and make no allowance for an install that fails in process?  Oh, and about that three (3) days thing.  I'm installing/using now, I need the documentation now.  Three (3) day wait?  I'll go elsewhere.

... *commission* it!

More than once, that have I done.  The problem, of course, is finding someone capable of performing the job.  And settling on amount can be, as you've mentioned/implied, a difficult issue.

It's not really fair to use a certain operating system your whole life (Windows) and then try out a different one that functions on different paradigms (Debian/Ubuntu) for a few hours and then say this new one is stupid/useless/whatever simply because you can't figure it out.

Hm-m-m ... I started out with Big Iron Unix, several different flavours, dependent upon the vendor.  On a personal level, I started with calculator scripts, then Tandy DOS, then MS DOS/IBM DOS.  There were forays into CP/M (anyone remember that one  smiley?), OS-9, PICS (beautiful database capability, you just had to rebuild it every weekend  tellme), a few others that have long since passed by the wayside.
I've gathered from conversations here that a number of folk my age have had similar experience.  So be careful when you make that, "... your whole life ...," accusation  tongue tongue

When I gave my then-retired father a laptop, he didn't care what made it run, he just wanted it to run.  He wanted email because he'd been told he needed it.  He wanted to browse the Web to find things and just because he wanted to do so.  He didn't want a financial program, he didn't want a document processor.  One (1) thing he did want, though, was not to be bothered with daily, plebeian maintenance tasks.  He wanted the TV/movie computer - you turn it on and it works.  At that time, Linux didn't have a desktop interface (c'mon, x-windows?), so Windows was about the only option.  He wanted something that just worked, and Windows did.  (Apple did, but it was just too damned expensive - a habit they've maintained over the years.)

OK, I wasn't trying to turn this into an OS conflagration.  I just wanted to mention the problems I'd had with various flavours of Linux, and pretty much support what I assumed was the intent of the original post.

But I stand by my statements in regard to documentation and drivers.  They are the two (2) biggest failings/drawbacks in regard to Linux' adoption on a wider scale.
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zridling
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« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2012, 02:02:34 AM »

I'll give this topic a crack. Thank you, dantheman, for the opportunity.
____________________________________________
I've spent some considerable time over the last week trying to get into Linux, especially with LinuxMint which seems to be the second best after Ubuntu.
First, Mint is the fattest and heaviest of all the Linux distros. Bring lots of hardware and GPU power if you're going to run it. By "second best" I assume you mean second most popular. Linux popularity of any given Linux distro ebbs and flows. While Debian is quite fine, I contend that Ubuntu is about the worst introduction someone can have to Linux, especially if they think all of Ubuntu's problems are shared among other distros. I really like openSUSE and Fedora, but tend to use openSUSE at home simply because it's good, boring, and quite productive.



This is also why I suggest you take your time with Linux. Immersion is best, but install it on a second machine if you have one and do similar tasks that you perform on your Windows system. If you're looking to switch full time to Linux, then fine. If you're merely dabbling for the fun of it, then you're always going to think Linux comes up short. Back in '05-'06, I spent almost a year playing with a few Linux distros because of my dissatisfaction with Vista and then the prospect of having to buy yet another Microsoft OS in Win7 that I didn't want. I knew what I wanted from my computer and what I could live without.

Turns out, though, that I have a lot more software available right away with Linux than I ever did with Windows. From calculators to text editors to image editors and viewers to HTML editors, vast set of programming tools at hand, choice of file systems for my HDs, superior file management, stupid-easy installation and upgrades (online, network, DVD, CD, LiveCD), games - yes!, renamers, disc burning, and on and on -- all free. openSUSE not only gives me a help file built into the distro, but access to their community forums to get any question I have answered.

In the end, using Linux is about choice. You get to choose:
-- Your distro based on your personal preferences, your hardware, or any other need, productive or otherwise.
-- Which desktop environment you like, even if you want it to perfectly mimic Win7 or OSX!
-- Which software you use and how you'll use it, not a corporation designed to bleed your wallet.
-- When and whether you upgrade your system.
-- What to do with all the money you save on anti-virus software scams, extra hardware requirements, etc.

If you do switch, go all-in. If not, enjoy Windows. Most of your time is likely spent in the browser anyway; how you get there is your choice.  smiley
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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2012, 02:46:29 AM »

...and then the prospect of having to buy yet another Microsoft OS in Win7 that I didn't want.

Why did you HAVE to? This is much the same mindset many see when a new distribution of Linux comes out. You feel you "must" upgrade, out of some intrinsic "need" to upgrade. No one makes you upgrade the Windows OS you have. Heck, XP has been supported for HOW LONG? Even if Windows 8 goes RTM this year, Windows 7 will be supported for how much longer?

Don't take my comments the wrong way, I am not pro-any program/OS/software. But, I believe in quashing what I find to be FUD. No one forces a user to upgrade their Windows installation but the user. Now, if this is a business environment, that is a different story and likely going to occur regardless of what OS you run. That is simply called the life-cycle process.

Turns out, though, that I have a lot more software available right away with Linux than I ever did with Windows. From calculators to text editors to image editors and viewers to HTML editors, vast set of programming tools at hand, choice of file systems for my HDs, superior file management, stupid-easy installation and upgrades (online, network, DVD, CD, LiveCD), games - yes!, renamers, disc burning, and on and on -- all free. openSUSE not only gives me a help file built into the distro, but access to their community forums to get any question I have answered.

And on this, MS simply cannot include many of these tools. Many of the tools in any Linux distribution are not made by the distro maintainer, but instead brought on and developed by the community. MS has had their hands slapped too many times and must be careful not to be anti-competitive when they include a new tool. Heck, I expect backlash with the inclusion of A/V products in Windows 8. Not that I support the backlash, but I see it coming from major vendors like Mcafee and Symantec.

I like Linux, I use it. Backtrack, yes it is a pen-test distro, is my distro of choice for daily use. I've customized it and I prefer the apt package management system over yum or rpm. OpenSUSE is nice but I am used to apt and that is the sole thing that really ties me to the debian-based distros.
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mahesh2k
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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2012, 03:57:36 AM »

Quote
LM Debian is supposed to be the future.
Guess the future isn't here yet...

You're going with tagline bashing for the brands because you can make windows work for you but you don't want linux to work on it's own but it should be your way or high way. Trust me, been there, bashed linux, cursed linux and now switched to linux. Hell some of my bashing answers on linux are still archived on this forum. As for brand tagline bashing "for the future type"...if i got that route then i can even digg some of the known brands in apple and windows industry for their useless stuff. But...I digress.

Quote
The installation process automatically assigns the amount for swap.
This is where you have to fix things. Installation process can't decide the right amount of the Swap for you. That is for you to decide because you know the configutation better than the installer. Installers only check for minimum required disk space and RAM. Always assign swap space more than what installer tells you to do.


As for the linux drivers excuse, it is getting older and tiresome. Other than few soundcard, graphics and few non-USB hardwares, linux supports USB based devices out of the box. So new mobiles, camera, scanners, printers with USB plug are supported out of the box. You don't need to have model specific drivers for them if they have USB built in.

Documentation - Ubuntu and the debian based distros carry a lot of documentation for minute things. Not only that but "manual" aka man command is always there for the support of the documentation for smallest library out there on linux.

Quote
No one makes you upgrade the Windows OS you have.

Application developers do. There are people who live by some of the applications from brands like corel, adobe, cisco and others. If these brands stop supporting some products and only allow the product for future versions of windows, people are forced to upgrade. In case of linux there is no such case like that. I can go on with the list like.. VS upgrades and the .NET developers forcing people to upgrade because they can't allow .NET 4 on windows 2000. Some lifecycles are necessary to push innovation, some are forced. In case of windows it is always forced. In case of linux, it is dependent on distro because it is upto them to support packages for community. You can have updated package on your older linux box as long as you feed it the new dependency libs.

At the end, it is all dependent on how much you're willing to go ahead to use new system. You didn't learned to use tablets out of the box. Even it has learning curve of it's own for each tablet manufacturer with its own stuff regardless of the underlying operating systems. I bashed linux for development limitations, lack of eye candy, HUD and what not and now happily converted to it because I got tired of walled-garden systems like windows and the limit it offers me. HUD and many new improvements in linux are worth experiencing compared to windows crappy metro. I don't believe in conversion, so point in shouting for linux. It is upto people to see if it is good for them or not. Some people feel good in cages, some do good in playground. So If this is pure bash thread, I don't think anyone can help you with that, hell even apple is useless for windows users if we nitpick things like OP did.

Anyway, good luck with metro.  tongue
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« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2012, 04:04:39 AM »

You feel you "must" upgrade, out of some intrinsic "need" to upgrade. No one makes you upgrade the Windows OS you have.

I cordially invite you to go install Windows 3.1, 95, or 98, then come back and post your results here at DC~! Grin tongue

Sorry -- couldn't resist that~! cheesy Just poking fun~!
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« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2012, 08:07:06 AM »

Mind you Renegade, Windows 95 was lightning fast and stable!  Thmbsup
How i miss the days of Windows 98...  Cry
Not really.
Lord knows how many times i had to reboot Windows 98 SE before it finally kicked in properly.

Now have Ubuntu "WUBI" style installed.
It was resource hog at first with updates and Thunderbird (configured to download messages for offline).
But everything is pretty cool right now.  Kiss

As zridling put it, perhaps OpenSUSE would be much lighter and easier to work with.
If it has a WUBI style installation, perhaps i can give it a try.

If there's one thing that i hear people pushing Linux repeat,
it's the fact that you don't need an Antivirus program.
Just recently, i read something about one of Apple's products that will likely be prone to this nightmare during 2012.
What can guarantee it won't happen to Linux too?
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Josh
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« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2012, 09:00:30 AM »

The "You don't need an antivirus application" point is being proven very moot, very quickly. Apple and their walled garden are showing that EVERY, YES EVERY, operating system is vulnerable, it is just a matter of how much benefit is gained from exploiting it. All it is going to take is for a handful of big, largely publicized exploits to occur on Linux and users will see. Right now, the focus is on individual apps within Linux (Apache and various other daemons).
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mahesh2k
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« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2012, 09:05:16 AM »

Quote
What can guarantee it won't happen to Linux too?
Linux has it's own set of security issues if you allow it. Script kiddies, google it. So yes, it is possible to have security issues in linux too but not like windows which makes system unstable or like apple even for using anti-virus products. This is the reason you should take care while downloading scripts from the Internet before you run on your terminal. Also avoid unsafe or untrusted repositories.
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dantheman
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« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2012, 09:16:10 PM »

I recall looking for a Christmas theme image on the web and caught a trojan or whatever (on Windows) simply by hovering over the image in the search result. Could this ever happen on Linux too?

Don't know if zridling is still listening in, but i recall now one of the issues that i find annoying in Ubuntu.
You can't hide, move or autohide the top panel (as far as i know, you can make it transparent but it will never disappear). That's why i've been dabbing about with LinuxMint (prior to latest WUBI installation). Even auto-hiding quick launch is somewhat... anyway!
Which is better to try out : openSuse Gnome or KDE ?
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mahesh2k
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« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2012, 09:28:35 PM »

No.  Browser based scripts are not going to harm linux system because linux doesn't allow tampering to system without root privileges, which is more restrictive than windows, even on folder level permission for file editing or saving or adding new file in specific folder.

Ubuntu 12.04 makes use of unity and in order to hide the dash and the panel, you have to use the add-ons like myunity. If you download these then hiding top panel will take few seconds and you can easily bring the default settings back too.

Gnome 3 is not something I suggest for you because you're not into experimental mode and want something like windows. So KDE should do fine for you. It works exactly like Windows desktop, even more with different ways to manage things ofcourse. Also if you want something that takes minimal resource, try Xubuntu or any XFCE based distro. You can have more than one window manager on Opensuse. Just download the KDE, XFCE or gnome and choose the window manager during login screen.
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dantheman
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« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2012, 07:51:12 AM »

Mahesk2k, that was a good tip for Ubuntu, thanks!  smiley
There's no "autohide" option for the top panel, but transparency and other tips make it okay.

That panel issue which made its way elsewhere (like LinuxMint) really had me bubbling.
After all, Linux is supposed to be the most flexible or versatile OS in the world and here we are, stuck with a frozen IE style interface!
No way to hide the titlebar (=panel), autohide it or put it somewhere else (still can't). Sheesh!  thumb down
If Ubuntu (no.1 in rank) continues to behave this way, i don't know how they can seduce more Windows users.

In that case, is Gnome 3 the way to go for a true Linux experience?

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TaoPhoenix
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« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2012, 09:07:01 AM »

Re: Having to upgrade the OS, at my limited understanding that wasn't FUD, it was an artifact of the Linux Package system, where upgrading more than a version or two of an application like Firefox required whole new libraries, ... that usually only appeared with the next update of the OS.

I lost a month of my life trying to resolve dependencies by hand once.
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Edvard
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« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2012, 01:37:51 PM »

[EDIT]
I had a much longer and verbose, then a much shorter and terse answer, but in the end, both brevity (the soul of wit) and  pedantics went out the window, so here is my answer to simply expound upon this:
Yes, Linux is a hobby, if you choose to treat it like one.

That is, something one dabbles with on a weekend, occasionally accomplishing something amazing, more often than not swearing and threatening to kick it down the sewer.  Yet one resolutely soldiers on with wrench, hammer, and sandpaper, and when it's finally polished and purring like a kitten, it gets shown to friends and fellow enthusiasts to rounds of acclaim.
If that's how you see it or feel about it, then Yes, stick with Windows for "serious" work and play with your choice of distro when you get an itch to tinker with something that appears to be half-broke much of the time, trying to make something of it. That's what most hobbies are all about.

For others (e.g. yours truly) however, it is every bit as basic and essential as any other operating system.  Just like users of Windows or Mac OSX, we do many of the same things, use different software, swear at bugs, work around shortcomings and occasionally mutter "I'm so glad I don't have to use [other operating system], my work would be impossible!".
For me, it's not a hobby.  Bugs are mortal enemies, not curiosities to scoff at.  Optimization is a task to be seized upon, not a pipe dream involving expensive hardware alone.  Software is bent to my will or it doesn't survive, rather than vice-versa.  A terminal is where I issue commands, not polite requests.  
Most importantly, Linux is how I get work done, and it's proven more than adequate for the job.  Sure, there are some Windows programs I miss (xPlorer2, Notepadd++), but I'm not crippled without them.

For the record, I'm running snappily with Debian Wheezy (production work on a Testing system? GASP!) on a 2.4 GHz single-core AMD 64 4000+, 4 GB RAM, a 160 GB hard drive, and ATI Radeon HD 2600XT graphics.
I abandoned Xubuntu a year and a half ago and never looked back (running waaay too slow, surprised?).

Quote
In that case, is Gnome 3 the way to go for a true Linux experience?
I'll just say this; A "true Linux experience" is not dependent on any gui or distro, it's whatever works for you.
If Gnome 3 works and does what you want it to, then the answer is "Yes!"; for others... not a chance.
Personally, I use Xfce, because it (wait for it...) works for me, and so it is (to me) a "true" Linux experience; in fact, one I am constantly trying to emulate when I get sat in front of a Windows machine.

... BTW, with Xfce, you can auto-hide panels, place them wherever you want, in any size.  Thmbsup
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mahesh2k
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« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2012, 01:38:47 PM »

Quote
There's no "autohide" option for the top panel, but transparency and other tips make it okay.
There is a reason why Unity has no autohide or hide option for top panel. If you notice that unity offers Mac OS style global menu for the applications and the close/maximize buttons are also on that panel. That is why they dont want you to use that option right out of the box, so that you can break display manager. You can do that ofcouse but it requires a  bit tweaking. See the image below to understand why top panel is not hidden and how it is used in global menus and window controls.

http://desmond.imageshack...unity.jpg&res=landing

You don't have to hate ubuntu for that because unity is display manager which ubuntu is using and it is the feature of unity. So you don't have to blame ubuntu linux community for that. It is from the unity developers which are interested to make this minimalistic desktop like apple.

If you don't like unity on ubuntu, you can install gnome 3 which is slightly similar to unity but has different options and yes they do allow top panel hiding.  Same goes for XFCE and KDE, MATE, Cinnamon and other display managers. Unity is totally new display manager and is meant for minimalistic interface and usage.
Quote
If Ubuntu (no.1 in rank) continues to behave this way, i don't know how they can seduce more Windows users.
Goal of linux is not to seduce people to use it. Neither canonical (makers of ubuntu) or other linux communities want that. They want linux to have more choices or flavors in the way people want. For example, I like unity but you definitely will love KDE because you want it to work like windows. Gnome 3 is loved by people who like simple and minimalistic and quick desktop. XFCE and Cinnamon, MATE and LXDE are the distros for people who like menu style accessibility. So you have more than 11 display manager choices to choose from. No need to  seduce users to come to use them. You can use any as per your choice.

Quote
In that case, is Gnome 3 the way to go for a true Linux experience?
There is no such thing like true linux experience. You can use xfce and feel comfortable. Or you can experiment like me and love unity. Or you can use gnome 3 for your quick usage and eye candy desktop. Like this each person has it's own goal for linux desktop. So like windows or apple, you don't have one goal shared by all users but different choices to in almost everything you do with linux. When you understand this freedom, you get that true experience. Eye candy stuff with compiz effects and few desktop tricks is not the way of linux. It is more of windows or apple way.
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