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Author Topic: Windows 8 is just a Service/crapware pack for Windows 7  (Read 12150 times)
Carol Haynes
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« on: March 21, 2012, 08:11:00 PM »

I bit the bullet today!

I am going to have to support Windows 8 so having played with it in VMWare I decided it was time to try it out on a real computer and trashed my laptop to see how it works on real hardware.

The upgrade from Windows 7 (I wanted to see if it actually worked) took ages - probably about 3 hours - but went smoothly.

I don't like it any more on real hardware than on VMWare but at least I have a single screen (which makes things easier with hitting corners) and it does seem to run pretty smoothly.

Currently there is no Microsoft update available in Win8 (only Windows update) so you can't find office updates etc. but the system updated pretty quickly.

My biggest surprise was when I started running desktop applications. Every windows upgrade in the past broke application activations (Especially Photoshop and Office) but not so this time. Every application I have that requires activation works fine without needing to reactivate!

To my mind this proves that the community preview (at least) is liittle more than a service pack update to Windows 7 with an irritating modifed default explorer.exe shell

OK they have added ribbon interfaces here and there and made a few minor tweaks but a new OS - really? Are they kidding.

Anyone else seen any features that would qualify Windows 8 as more than a fairly minor service pack?
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Deozaan
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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2012, 08:26:47 PM »

Wasn't Windows 7 basically a service pack update to Windows Vista?

I mean, look at the version number. Windows 7 identifies itself as Windows 6.5. . .  undecided
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Tuxman
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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2012, 08:40:14 PM »

Windows 7 is Windows Vista with some "optimized" (disabled) start-up services and a broken taskbar.

The only "new feature" in Windows 8 is the tablet Metro UI, so I would consider it the Android 3 of the Windows systems; preparing for "Android 4" (Windows "9") that will hopefully merge the tablet and desktop branches again.
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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2012, 08:43:31 PM »

Wasn't Windows 7 basically a service pack update to Windows Vista?

I mean, look at the version number. Windows 7 identifies itself as Windows 6.5. . .  undecided

Windows 6.1 not 6.5 ...
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40hz
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« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2012, 08:57:50 PM »

I'd be really surprised if the "preview" they're giving out is the same thing Win 8 ends up ultimately being. If it is, Microsoft is drunker on their own KoolAid than I originally thought.

I've got it running on real hardware. And like Carol, I am not impressed one iota.

And I agree, it looks and feels more like some weird demo hack than it does a true beta.

If it's not, then I have to think Microsoft is so convinced people will flock to Metro and it's closed ecosystem (and app store) that they just don't care any more.

Besides, Microsoft's message at CeBIT seemed to be that all us IT types should feel free to piss off. Microsoft will be directing its main push to consumers, and counting on them to generate the pull that will make the rest of us get on board.

You know what? When the day finally comes that Microsoft decides to burn its partners, and announces they're pulling all our customers (along with the whole Windows/Office environment) up into their cloud, I'll actually breathe a sigh of relief. And probably say "Good riddance" too.
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Tuxman
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« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2012, 08:59:56 PM »

I have to think Microsoft is so convinced people will flock to Metro and it's closed ecosystem (and app store) that they just don't care any more.
I would not wonder much.
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« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2012, 10:51:08 PM »

I started out hating it (as I did with W7). I have it both in a VM and on real hardware.
I can live with it if I have to and it's not that hard to make it behave as W7 does.

When it comes to tablets my guess is that it'd be quite good. There's no place for a tablet in my life, though (although I have one that came as a gift).

I'm pleased to see that some old but wickedly expensive DOS stuff, that matters a lot to me, runs fine on the 64-bit version using DosBox.
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Chris
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« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2012, 05:02:06 AM »

I did few tests and it indeed looks like Win7 with very few changes. The removal of Start menu is annoyance for a mouse/desktop users.

Microsoft desperately wants jump on the tablet OS train they missed by a couple of years. If anyone can enter an industry segment so late and succeed, it is Microsoft. They have pulled this trick off numerous times before. But with Google and Apple as competitors, who knows if they succeed this time.

The only thing I am curious about on Win8 is the ARM support. I'd like to re-compile and test my apps on ARM hardware...
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db90h
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« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2012, 05:09:14 AM »

Vista was the big upgrade to the NT kernel. It allowed all that followed. Vista is NT 6.0.

Windows 7 was indeed a polishing of Vista, that's why it was NT 6.1.

Windows 8 is Windows 7 with the Metro UI slaped on top, Start Menu removed, default Font size adjusted, minor cosmetic changes to allow for touch screens (e.g. Window title in center instead of left justified). You know, stuff for touch screens.

No major kernel changes, although it will be built for a new platform (ARM), something largely facilitated with the kernel changes made in Vista, though supported ever since NT4.

On the ARM platform, from what I understand, Windows will be locking everything down to their own App Store - as they have no legacy apps to deal with since none are compiled for ARM processors (only x86 or x86-64 [AMD64].. or in rare cases IA64 before it died). I love the idea of getting Microsoft's approval before releasing an app ;o. NOT. However, it will mean less malware for Windows on ARM.
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Carol Haynes
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« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2012, 10:30:49 AM »

However, it will mean less malware for Windows on ARM.

Who needs scammers ripping you off at that point - it will all be done officially by MS!

I can't wait for the law suits - Apple has managed to dodge the bullet so far but MS has been sued repeatedly over competition rules and I can see it starting again but this time on speed - and I can't help feeling Apple and Google will be dragged in to because of the same levels of user extortion!
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40hz
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« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2012, 11:17:41 AM »

Who needs scammers ripping you off at that point - it will all be done officially by MS!

 Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

I can't wait for the law suits - Apple has managed to dodge the bullet so far but MS has been sued repeatedly over competition rules and I can see it starting again but this time on speed - and I can't help feeling Apple and Google will be dragged in to because of the same levels of user extortion!

What difference will it make? It still comes down to picking between Apple or Microsoft for most people. Almost like asking if you'd rather be infected with one disease over another. Apple, Microsoft, Google, Oracle, and all the other big players have effectively blocked any and all independent innovation by threatening to file patent infringement suits against anybody doing anything with computers or software. And what they won't sue you for, the patent trolls will.

If that's not enough to scare off any potential investors (thereby guaranteeing your endeavor is stillborn) they'll pull you into court and bury you under so much legal expense you won't survive long enough to even make it to trial.

And FOSS? It's only a matter of time before the entire commercial software industry hits the GNU/Linux world with meritless patent infringement and other nuisance suits from every direction at once. Because it's fairly obvious they are hell bent on killing Tux and are simply biding their time. (Wasn't it Ballmer who argued that GPL and free software was fundamentally illegal since the terms of it's licenses went against what patent and copyright laws were set up to protect? He basically equated giving software away for free with all that was immoral, anti-business, and anti-capitalist. He even went so far as to imply it was also somehow communist or socialist in its goals. Oh horror of horrors!)

About the only thing that's prevented this from happening so far is that the players are too busy fighting each other to have the time to focus on GNU/Linux. They also view Linux as a less immediate threat because they know they'll be able to crush it whenever they finally decide they need to.

And I don't expect much relief from our judicial systems. If it comes down to a choice between doing the right and moral thing under law - or protecting domestic businesses and industries from competition by ignoring or bending the law - I'm almost 100% certain which way that decision will go.

If governments the world over are willing to tolerate the most egregious human rights violations and genocides rather than give the International Court of Justice some real teeth (because such powers might someday be used against their own abuses) I don't think that ignoring antitrust and anti-competition laws is going to cost most politicos and judges any sleep.

Because if we're already turning our heads away from real and quantifiable human suffering (in the name of expediency and protecting "national sovereignty") I don't have much hope that preserving open standards and hardware platforms is going to get much thought or attention where it matters.
 Sad

-------------------------

BTW: Is my post above an example of the sort of "going off topic" wraith808 was talking about in this thread?

If so, all I can say is "Nuts." (With apologies to Gen. Anthony McAuliffe - U.S.Army Wink .)tongue
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 11:31:54 AM by 40hz » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2012, 01:02:53 PM »

I think it all comes down to selling point. Microsoft seems to have no such selling point since Windows XP. What's in windows vista? XP was the last functional and usable version and anything after that was just attempt to improve from previous versions mistake. Win 7 is likely to replace some of the XP based systems soon(or maybe it started already for many people). Forcing people to use touch based interface was surely a turn off that was the reason even canonical kept classic desktop interface (gnome-panel). You can't sell product out of hype, if you're not the original creator of that hype. I am expecting microsoft to add features that will keep the classic interface alive.

On the topic of tablets, there is no reason why one should buy windows tablets if those tablets are going to be priced at same or higher amount than linux or apple tablets, is there any?

I mean what we get in consumer tablets? We don't use it for photoshop or heavy work.
Retina Display? Not offered by any other manufacturer than apple.
Itunes or music store with songs? apps? I don't see any popular store from microsoft. Hell, even android and Nokia has no functional popular music store.
App store with DRM? Whats the point of keeping self destructive Win apps in tablet?

So if we look at these things, W8 tablets offer nothing worthy compared to Linux or Apple tablet. Let's face it, microsoft is slowly losing the market. They lost the tablet market already. They're not launching surface at cheap cost to make up for that, so why any sane mind will buy MS tablet over any other tablet?

Coming back to W8 and W7. I don't see much success for W8. I mean if we ignore the applications, there seems to be no reason to upgrade to it in future. Hell many people skipped W Vista entirely and jumped directly to W7.


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Stephen66515
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« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2012, 01:27:31 PM »

I had Windows Vista for a very short period of time before downgrading to XP.  Vista annoyed the hell out of me, barely anything worked without an hours worth of fighting with it.  In the end, I upgraded to Windows 7 Ultimate and then back down to Windows 7 Premium (Came with a new computer, never got around to changing back to ultimate as there seems to be no noticeable difference between the two).

I played with the preview of Win8 and was not impressed.  Felt like Aston Shell on top of Win7, but less usable, and less fun to use.  I have a hatred for anything "touch", mainly because I am heavy handed and have broken many phone screens due to this, but also because I like buttons, and without buttons, I feel lost.  The day Windows goes 100% touch screen, I'll move to linux, and when they move, I'll go to wherever can allow me to use a good old fashioned keyboard and mouse.

Touch Screen is hell, and my mom always told me never to play with fire.
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« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2012, 03:41:09 PM »

Quote
Touch Screen is hell, and my mom always told me never to play with fire.

 Grin

On the touch screen point, (i know slightly off topic) I often press click on one thing and another thing opens. I have this old HTC touch based phone with Windows on it. I try to open menu and the first most program link in menu always gets clicked from me. Same is the issue with android, it's really hard to use touch based phones if you've bigger thumb. ( I don't have big fingers but still i had issues with touch displays.
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Stephen66515
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« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2012, 03:58:03 PM »

Quote
Touch Screen is hell, and my mom always told me never to play with fire.

 Grin

On the touch screen point, (i know slightly off topic) I often press click on one thing and another thing opens. I have this old HTC touch based phone with Windows on it. I try to open menu and the first most program link in menu always gets clicked from me. Same is the issue with android, it's really hard to use touch based phones if you've bigger thumb. ( I don't have big fingers but still i had issues with touch displays.

I am also cursed with fat fingers  Grin
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« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2012, 07:00:09 PM »

I'll go to wherever can allow me to use a good old fashioned keyboard and mouse.

I think I better dust off my old Amiga smiley
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« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2012, 04:21:48 PM »

The consumer preview is pre-beta software. They have basically just stuck Metro on top of Windows 7 to get people exposed to the new Metro interface. Once it enters beta that's when the rubber will meet the road. That's when Microsoft will actually begin shaping the OS into what Windows 8 will be.

There *will* be a fully functional UI for keyboard/mouse users. Microsoft has promised that all along. It's just that the developer & consumer previews have been built to showcase Metro and what it's potential will be. No need to panic yet.

And anyone who says that Windows 7 is just an optimized version of Windows Vista either hasn't spent much time with Vista, 7, or both.
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« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2012, 04:33:07 PM »

I am with Innuendo. I've had no doubt that MS will NOT make Metro the default UI for all computer systems. It just would not make sense.

Also, Windows 7 is far more than just a "service pack" to Windows Vista. Like Innuendo, I feel anyone who makes claims otherwise has not messed with Windows 7 for more than a few days.
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Carol Haynes
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« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2012, 08:30:53 PM »

Ditto - Vista was a half finished mess on release (and IMHO Is not much better after 2 service packs). Windows 7 is now my preferred Windows (though I still use VMs of XP occasionally for some things).

I am not so sure that the Consumer preview is that far from the beta - they have to get a beta and a RC out pretty soon if they are going to hit the much leaked October release date.

There isn't much time to do a complete overhaul of the 'legacy' desktop - and given that they say it is legacy why would they want to? The description legacy is a strong suggestion that the desktop is on its way out as far as MS is concerned and I remain convinced that Windows 9 won't actually happen if MS can make Metro popular. I'd guess the next MS operating system after Windows 8 with be Metro 2 (or its equivalent) with all apps locked into the Metro interface.

Additionally they have made it pretty clear that the Start menu is gone - they have even killed the registry hack in the customer preview that allowed it to be brought back in earlier previews. To my way of thinking the whole Metro/Windows mashup is the biggest issue on the desktop. What the desktop needs is a proper desktop Windows with a Metro button that allows access to the Metro apps if you perversely feel the need of Metro (preferably one that can be hidden or disabled completely) - it is after all only a single window application running on the desktop (albeit a full screen single window application)!
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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2012, 02:05:49 PM »

What 40hz said. I can say I'm doing as much "surfing" as possible on an Android tablet these days; real work is still the PC's domain. But Vista, the Ribbon, and now Metro are three strikes for Microsoft. VMware and the cloud have made traditional platforms seem like landlines — if you don't have one, you don't even think about it anymore. That said, every healthcare organization I know is still anchored to XP!

Therefore, look for Metro to be transitional at best; Microsoft ain't done yet.
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40hz
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« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2012, 02:59:16 PM »

I am with Innuendo. I've had no doubt that MS will NOT make Metro the default UI for all computer systems. It just would not make sense.

I wonder if that's really that big a concern. ALL their marketing and industry talk is about "how excited" they are about Metro and Merto apps. What they do say about the traditional desktop is far from encouraging. The whole push is for "new" whether it fills a need or not. Just like the ribbon, it's primarily something different for the sake of difference. (And probably patents as well.)

My sense from what I've seen in the industry and partner channels is that the desktop is going to be gone as soon as they can make it disappear. They do not want a repeat of Windows XP where you have huge numbers of people still hanging onto an "obsolete" version of Windows when two completely new versions have been released in the meantime. It's embarrassing if nothing else. Sure Vista was a complete dog. But you could talk your way around that one. But Windows 7? That one is pretty nice - and has demonstrable benefits for switching over.

No. Microsoft wants the desktop gone. I think the following sums up Microsoft's current attitude:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFeTzCMFaH8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFeTzCMFaH8</a>

 Cool

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Carol Haynes
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« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2012, 03:46:58 PM »

I don't want to reopen the can of worms but I really can't see why people are still upset about ribbons. Having been using then now for 5 years (!) I have to say I wouldn't want to go back to the bloody silly toolbars in Office 2003 and earlier. If you needed access to lots of features in older version of office you ended up with a whole bunch of cryptic toolbars that were hard to use and took up even more real estate. If you don't like losing the space just hide it!

Sure they seem to be adopting ribbons in places that perhaps they seem superfluous but then one of the things people complain about is lack of consistency!

Ineresting parallel the demise of Portal 2 vs. the demise of Windows desktop.

Ultimately it is MS's intention to get out of the home computer market altogether and move as many people as they can on to an annual purchase of tablets and phones like Apple is gradually doing.

I really don't think they have actually thought about productivity! Do they really think people are going to do desktop publishing, video editing or photography on a tablet?
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« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2012, 05:38:07 PM »

If Windows gets rid of the desktop, does that mean Linux will have to be "it" as far as personal computing goes?  I can see us holding on to Windows 7 for a few years, but then what?  I think I can be ok with that, given enough years to adjust to finding replacement software, but from my other thread, Windows is still far easier to use than Linux once you factor in third-party tools that are available.  What do the Linux people have planned as far as unified distros or third party tools that will work across all distros?  I've now read a few blogs and videos, and I know we are far away from that kind of goal, but I also get the sense that the Linux community doesn't care as much as I do about the unification bit.  If that's true, that means I better get comfortable with command line stuff and linux scripting, whatever that involves.

But I'm not alone.  I can see a community forming of people like me who want the traditional windows experience on linux.  I just haven't heard the linux community be quite as passionate about that kind of goal as I am.  Most of them are more like "the scripting is good enough" type of people.  But I also think they will quickly be in the minority once the Windows desktop is gone.
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Carol Haynes
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« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2012, 05:52:17 PM »

I think Linux is doing the opposite of unifying - every time someone sneezes there is a new distro released. There isn't much logic to it.

Ironically I think Apple might well take up the desktop mantle .... especially as many software title are running on both. I haven't seen any evidence yet that Apple is trying to unify OS X and iOS (but then I haven't been looking).
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« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2012, 07:00:49 PM »

I am not so sure that the Consumer preview is that far from the beta - they have to get a beta and a RC out pretty soon if they are going to hit the much leaked October release date.

What a lot of people forget (or perhaps don't even realize) is that Microsoft has multiple teams working towards an OS release that leapfrog one another with releases till RTM. What we have seen in the Consumer Preview is the result of the work of one such team. When Beta 1 hits we'll be seeing the resulting work of a different team who have been working months towards that release & will most likely have implemented code and features the Consumer Preview team didn't have access to for inclusion in their release.

As going far back at least as far as Windows 2000, people have always proclaimed that the sky is falling when Microsoft releases their preview releases. By the late betas the panicked masses have an "Oh, okay" moment of realization when they realize the preview release was nowhere near feature-complete.

Microsoft learned a valuable lesson with Vista that they vowed would never be repeated as well. Now, if things haven't changed by Beta 2 or 3 then I'll happily join all the nay-sayers in screaming towards the heavens. smiley
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