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Author Topic: Is Google Now Evil? Ask the Engineer!  (Read 5451 times)
Renegade
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« on: March 16, 2012, 08:39:17 AM »

Well, this is probably nothing new to anyone, but it's surprising to actually read an ex-Google employee say it:

http://www.dailymail.co.u...man-Sachs-style-rant.html

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/j...13/why-i-left-google.aspx

Quote
The Google I was passionate about was a technology company that empowered its employees to innovate. The Google I left was an advertising company with a single corporate-mandated focus.

...

Under Eric Schmidt ads were always in the background. Google was run like an innovation factory, empowering employees to be entrepreneurial through founder’s awards, peer bonuses and 20% time. Our advertising revenue gave us the headroom to think, innovate and create. Forums like App Engine, Google Labs and open source served as staging grounds for our inventions. The fact that all this was paid for by a cash machine stuffed full of advertising loot was lost on most of us. Maybe the engineers who actually worked on ads felt it, but the rest of us were convinced that Google was a technology company first and foremost; a company that hired smart people and placed a big bet on their ability to innovate.

...

The old Google made a fortune on ads because they had good content. It was like TV used to be: make the best show and you get the most ad revenue from commercials. The new Google seems more focused on the commercials themselves.

Perhaps Google is right. Perhaps the future lies in learning as much about people’s personal lives as possible. Perhaps Google is a better judge of when I should call my mom and that my life would be better if I shopped that Nordstrom sale. Perhaps if they nag me enough about all that open time on my calendar I’ll work out more often. Perhaps if they offer an ad for a divorce lawyer because I am writing an email about my 14 year old son breaking up with his girlfriend I’ll appreciate that ad enough to end my own marriage. Or perhaps I’ll figure all this stuff out on my own.

The old Google was a great place to work. The new one?

-1


And he moved to Microsoft... Can we say BURN? tongue Grin


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40hz
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« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2012, 09:30:46 AM »

They all have the capacity and talent for evil. As companies grow, they employ more and more people. And as more people get added, the company begins to become a microcosm of the world we live in. And evil can easily be found in our world.

All large organizations (governments, businesses, political parties, churches) contain elements of evil. Some have merely demonstrated a greater willingness to indulge in evil than others.

Let's not kid ourselves. Sad
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mahesh2k
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2012, 11:59:02 AM »

Quote
Perhaps Google is right. Perhaps the future lies in learning as much about people’s personal lives as possible.

FAIL.

If you hate door-to-door salesman, then you gotta hate google. If not then, let me know your bank codes, your daughters cell phone number, and most important thing -when you're out of the house and many other secret things that you don't want to share. If not, then guy like him should get off the google fanboy podium. I see no difference between stalkers and google.
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zridling
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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2012, 05:42:17 PM »

Seems like Whittaker's biggest gripe was with Google+ competing with facebook. He didn't see search as social. Hell, everything is social now.
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db90h
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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2012, 06:57:46 PM »

And, remember, this is coming from an ex-employee. You have to take such statements in context. While he may have valid points, this does not mean Google *is* now evil in some way. That said, I have about as much faith in it 'doing no evil' as I do in any other publicly traded corporation 'doing no evil'.
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Carol Haynes
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« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2012, 07:52:38 PM »

Can I play devil's advocate?

What is a company the size of Google meant to do? They have to finance their projects and they are an advertising company. They have never hidden that agenda.

Personally I don't really have a problem with Google, except that their search service is getting less and less helpful!

FWIW I use Google services a lot but I never click on ads (not that I ever see any I would be tempted to click on anyway) and I don't use Google adwords to promote my business.

As far as I am concerned I get a free service - OK they may harvest anonymous data on my browsing but in the long run I don't really believe they get a lot from me that helps them exploit me.

Am I too naive?
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Tuxman
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« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2012, 08:31:12 PM »

People who did not understand that Google is not the Salvation Army should consider reading a book instead of using the internet. Anyway, Microsoft is probably less evil than Google today.
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db90h
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« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2012, 08:47:34 PM »

Microsoft is probably less evil than Google today.

God only knows. Besides, even defining 'Evil' is a hard thing to do. Thus it is all a matter of opinion. The one thing I am sure on is that I have seen nothing from Google thus far that would compel me to quit using its services.
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Tuxman
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« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2012, 08:49:20 PM »

No one is forcing you to keep your privacy.
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db90h
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« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2012, 08:58:40 PM »

No one is forcing you to keep your privacy.

Are you talking to me? Yea, I agree. Nobody is. If I feel Google abuses my trust, then I, along with millions of others, will surely leave its services behind. That is the one reason I feel they'll do whatever they can to ensure they make people happy with regards to their Privacy Policy.
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db90h
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« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2012, 09:01:05 PM »

Besides, if they share my information *within* Google, that - to me - is a lot different than the gazillion corporations that share information with *each other*. If ever Google breaches THAT boundary, then I'll rethink things. As for REAL privacy on the internet, you can pretty much count it as a myth these days ;p. Sure, if you took extreme measures, I guess you could have more privacy over who you visit and what you do, etc.. but you really have to go 'all out' for it to work, else there's always a point of failure (e.g. DNS queries). I don't meant to say just anybody has access to this private information, but I'm pretty sure the government does ... when and as they need it, with or without ever informing the judiciary.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 09:38:44 PM by db90h » Logged
mahesh2k
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« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2012, 07:59:02 AM »

Quote
Hell, everything is social now.

Internet started with social concept to begin with. I don't know why people give google credit for social thing.

Point is if people don't mind giving that much information to google then why stop a stalker salesman? Why fight with government if they're going to install cams to monitor every activity of yours? Why feel bad if any random person creates your cam vid and distributes over interwebs? Everything is social and google is not evil, right?

Just because we abandoned the google account doesn't mean it ends over there. Analytics script which is installed on most of the websites collect enough information about visitors which google uses and passes small pie to the website publisher. So as long as people surf on sites where there is google analytics, they're tracking. It's not about forcing to use any of their service anymore.
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40hz
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« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2012, 08:42:59 AM »

Quote
Hell, everything is social now.

Just because we abandoned the google account doesn't mean it ends over there. Analytics script which is installed on most of the websites collect enough information about visitors which google uses and passes small pie to the website publisher. So as long as people surf on sites where there is google analytics, they're tracking. It's not about forcing to use any of their service anymore.

mahesh2k makes an excellent point. With so many sites co-opted to do Google data gathering it's becoming increasingly hard to see exactly where Google leaves off any more. But that's fine by Google. Because Google sees the Internet as Google and can't understand why so many of us continue to refuse to get with the program.

The other insidious problem with widespread private information gathering, data mining, and surveillance is that there are few checks and balances against it. If the government wants to gather information on you it usually requires a warrant. And there are (or used to be) rules to prevent the government from going on fishing expeditions for information since warrants and subpoenas are by nature somewhat narrow in scope and authority granted.

Government agencies are also bound by the constitutional and statutory constraints. And subject to oversight and review. No so private agencies. Whatever specifically isn't forbidden is considered ok until a law says otherwise. Government is restricted from gathering unnecessary information. Insurance and money lenders can and do routinely ask applicants for unnecessary information as a condition of doing business with them. Merchants track and gather as much information as possible every time you visit their website, shop in their stores, or make a purchase. And whatever information they can't gather that way can often be obtained by offering incentives (usually no more than a chance in a minor prize drawing) for participating in a survey. And all that information can be collated and shared without any further notice or oversight.

Where it becomes insidious is, when the government wants access to information it has no legal right to collect, it can always request it from private businesses and organizations. These businesses and organizations are free to set their own 'privacy policies.' And most have a provision that states they will fully cooperate with any and all government requests for information as a courtesy. Brilliant, don't you think? Your bank, your ISP, your telco, your credit cards, and your insurance companies have all given themselves the power to supply information it would have formerly required a court order to obtain. And here's the best part: you already gave them your consent to do so.

(You did read all that fine print on that paperwork you signed didn't you? It was right there, spelled out quite clearly in 9-point type in the middle of page 17 of 34. At least we assume you read it. Because you said you read and understood it in the paragraph just above your signature. )

So one way around legal restrictions on government power is to simply allow the private sector to run riot over individual privacy - and then get the information from them. And that is exactly what is happening. And has been happening for about the last 20 years. And all of it with our implied 'consent' and blessings.



« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 08:55:56 AM by 40hz » Logged

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40hz
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« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2012, 09:26:31 AM »

Internet started with social concept to begin with.

Minor point: not really.  smiley

The 'original' Internet (DARPNET/ARPANET) was conceived as a communications resource for key people and institutions (i.e. government and carefully selected universities, research institutions, and defense contractors) to exchange messages and information using a communications infrastructure that was relatively impervious to disruption due to a nuclear attack.

Whatever "social" aspects the Internet later acquired were not part of the original concept by any stretch. That came later with the adoption of TCP/IP and the replacement of the formerly closed ARPANET by the NSF when it introduced NSFNET back in the late 80s. That was what basically opened things up to the general public and later became "The Internet" as we think of it today.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 09:38:45 AM by 40hz » Logged

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mahesh2k
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« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2012, 11:00:07 AM »

I agree that it was not part of the original research.
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40hz
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« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2012, 11:15:31 AM »

I agree that it was not part of the original research.

But in a way it's not surprising it wasn't. How could they have possibly guessed it?

I think the whole "social" thing caught everybody by surprise. Who would have thought that something like Facebook would become what so many people think of as the Internet?

Tech people used to laugh when some AOL subscribers got AOL confused with the Internet. They don't laugh so much now when close to one billion people worldwide often think that about Facebook.

Truly amazing... huh
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Carol Haynes
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« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2012, 01:44:29 PM »

To many people Google is the internet.

I ask a lot of customers which browser they use and I would say in about 70% of cases they say Google (and they don't mean Chrome which most have installed but don't know what it is or how it got there). Almost all of that 70% use internet explorer and have google as their home page - they have never heard of internet explorer - they simply use google.

Hell most people don't know what a web address is or where to put it if you know it - for the majority of people I come across if you say go to www.bbc.co.uk or facebook they get there by putting into a google search and click the first link - without ever looking what website it is actually taking them to.

I have had a number of people call me and say what has happened to Facebook and when you investigate further they have clicked a google sponsored ad and aren't on Facebook at all!

Is this the fault of Google - not at all. There are a number of culprits:

  • The individual who doesn't look at what they are doing (and mostly don't care)
  • The stupid who don't understand what they are doing and don't want to know when you try to explain
  • The even more stupid who claim to know what they are doing and are too arrogant to accept help
  • The lazy - who want to use the internet like a washing machine and aren't in the least interested in how it works

I am just amazed I see so few real viruses (though I rarely see computers that aren't infected with some malware or other).

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40hz
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« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2012, 02:42:49 PM »

The lazy - who want to use the internet like a washing machine and aren't in the least interested in how it works

But isn't that exactly what Apple has been all about for over three years now? And also what Microsoft and Ubuntu are frantically scrambling to copy and catch up to?

Everybody with any real power is pushing for closed ecosystems, proprietary (or industry coalition approved) standards, tighter regulation and access restrictions, and full-time monitoring of any and all activity while using these devices.

If all goes according to plan, there won't be a general purpose personal computer in the future. I'm guessing they will be gone in about ten years time. Maybe twenty years tops. PCs will be replaced by a lovely, polished and glitzy (but totally locked-down) appliance that requires a subscription to a data plan to use.

A washing machine, Carol? I think you're being much too modest. Grin That would still require some intelligence to use. How about a couch potato's TV set? That seems to be the paradigm they're striving towards.

And once they tweak Siri and others of like ilk a bit more they'll even have the git's long suffering wife metaphor just in case the idiot wants to buy something. ("Honey? My back hurts. Can you fetch me another pint since you're already up?")

Holy Buddha? I am really starting to hate everything about the online and computer world lately.


Bloody! Why do I keep doing this to myself?

Time for a rant! (Why should Renegade have all the fun!)


Ok...let's rhumba! (dah-dah-dah-dah-dah - DA!)

 Thmbsup
  Thmbsup
   Thmbsup
    Thmbsup
   Thmbsup
  Thmbsup
 Thmbsup
Thmbsup
  Thmbsup
   Thmbsup
    Thmbsup
     Grin



« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 02:53:03 PM by 40hz » Logged

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superboyac
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« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2012, 02:58:08 PM »

^^ Grin
[note to self: insert clip]
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mahesh2k
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« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2012, 03:15:26 PM »

People who have no clue about what is the internet and how it works are the ones who run society in much more conservative ways. I am sure even the people who comment on each others clothes or critic based on their looks are now starting to use the internet. 5-10 more years from now, people with "real life and less internet life" will be minority.

I don't think this has anything to do with google. Google is only cashing in on the gaps of laws. I think there needs to be more changes in the current laws on governing internet ads, or else these ad giants will literally setup devices to stalk people. By no means I am too old to comment on future, hell i am yet to hit 30's. But I do think that if we continue to let these creeps walk over our lives, future is going to be "us vs them".
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superboyac
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« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2012, 03:19:58 PM »

Is this the fault of Google - not at all. There are a number of culprits:

  • The individual who doesn't look at what they are doing (and mostly don't care)
  • The stupid who don't understand what they are doing and don't want to know when you try to explain
  • The even more stupid who claim to know what they are doing and are too arrogant to accept help
  • The lazy - who want to use the internet like a washing machine and aren't in the least interested in how it works

This is one where I like to point the finger to both sides.  First, the users.  A lot of non-geeks have certain expectations from computers, which are completely unrealistic.  But they get all worked up about it, even though I'm pretty sure that they are aware that they don't know much about computers at all, and if they did, their expectations would be a little more realistic.  And then, they cast condescending looks upon the geeks who DO understand what's going on...and when we say things like "No...the PC is actually better if you want to DO something." they think we're making a religious argument.  That's the problem with the Apple vs. PC thing...it's the Apple people who make it religious...most of the nerds have very detailed, practical reasons for their preference.

But then, there's the other side.  Apple is absolutely killing their competitors because they spend a lot of time focusing on all the aesthetic stuff the other guys ignore.  Build quality.  Easy to use.  Yes, if you have a lot of options and flexibility like Windows or Linux, of course it will naturally be more complicated to use.  But...it doesn't have to be THAT complicated.  All people, geeks or not, will appreciate something that is easier to use.  So the competitors need to accept that and work on it.

And like I enjoy saying...the personal computer is the most advanced piece of technology the world has ever seen.  Why do we expect it to be as easy to use as a push-button telephone?  Reminds me of your gf, 40hz, when she was talking about entitlement.  it's true...these computer-illiterates feel entitled to having everything be plug n play.  And all it is is frustration due to lack of knowledge.  Go figure out how to download a driver, it's really not that bad.  But they project that anger out to everyone else...they bully the geeks (the curious and seekers of knowledge are always persecuted)...they like to say things like "you have waaaay too much time"...instead of learning beneficial skills, they learn tactics to intimidate, to market, to advertise, how to weild power, how to supervise, etc.  And frankly, I'm a little tired of it.
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« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2012, 03:29:29 PM »

Quote
Go figure out how to download a driver, it's really not that bad.  But they project that anger out to everyone else...they bully the geeks (the curious and seekers of knowledge are always persecuted)...they like to say things like "you have waaaay too much time"...instead of learning beneficial skills, they learn tactics to intimidate, to market, to advertise, how to weild power, how to supervise, etc.  And frankly, I'm a little tired of it.

I thought i was the only one on this planet thinking in this pattern. Holy galactus, i can die peacefully now.
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superboyac
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« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2012, 03:45:49 PM »

People who have no clue about what is the internet and how it works are the ones who run society in much more conservative ways. I am sure even the people who comment on each others clothes or critic based on their looks are now starting to use the internet. 5-10 more years from now, people with "real life and less internet life" will be minority.

I don't think this has anything to do with google. Google is only cashing in on the gaps of laws. I think there needs to be more changes in the current laws on governing internet ads, or else these ad giants will literally setup devices to stalk people. By no means I am too old to comment on future, hell i am yet to hit 30's. But I do think that if we continue to let these creeps walk over our lives, future is going to be "us vs them".
Well, first, society has to stop painting geeks as the guy who fixes things that lives in the basement, while throwing all of their power/money/respect at things learned in business school.  Give us a little respect also, after all, we're doing all the work.  I'm not saying a complete overthrow...we need the businessmen to balance out the non-techie stuff  OCCASIONALLY.  But the geeks need a little more respect now since they're doing the heavy lifting.  Just like the african americans in the 19th century...and the factory workers in the early 20th...the minorities in the mid-20th...well, it's the geeks now in that position.

it's clear listening to the politicians and the businessmen that the decisions they make about today's most valuable resource--technology--that they are woefully unqualified to even open their mouths.  Even though their position doesn't require them to know this stuff, they are making it even more impossible by not asking for help properly from the people that DO know.  Don't make decisions without asking the experts first...and that means PAYING the geeks who are living in their basements the way they pay the investment banking associates.  because they have worked hard, they have learned a lot, they have done so without so much of a thought of taking advantage of others, and they now have the knowledge needed to help people make the decisions to get out of this mess.  Pay them.  Stop stressing them out for profit.

but maybe this is just the nature of power, money, and true knowledge.
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« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2012, 03:58:31 PM »

The other thing the wealthy don't respect:
They think they are more intelligent because they've learned about risk management, economics, etc.

What they don't get is that ALL practical knowledge to programmers can be seen as if/then loops and some data.  A person who knows a lot about risk management is NOT smarter than a person who knows a lot about C++ code...so stop acting like a bunch of douches and acknowledge that.  It's all relative and all perspective.  Maybe a hundred years ago different information had more distinct relative values, but in an age where information is free and ridiculously easy to access...well...the data itself is not so valuable.  So what becomes valuable?  How to use the data?  geek time.  Now the businessmen will say that their expertise is decision making based on that data.  it is...sure.  But is it worth $1 million a year vs. $50k a year?  Nope.  They get away with it because everyone still thinks geeks are losers with no social skills, etc.  And that idea can die with our parents' generation, sorry to say.  Love ya, but you're time is past.

So we'll see what happens.  The more that gets exposed of our political system, the more that gets exposed about wall street, the more that gets exposed about how large technology corporations make their profits...the more people will realize how much of their time, effort, and money is going into a black hole where nothing fun, good, or comforting is coming out of. 
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« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2012, 06:44:41 PM »


Holy Buddha? I am really starting to hate everything about the online and computer world lately.
 


A long time ago, in an era not too far away as to escape memory, the hype was all about SaaS...

It was then that my alarm bells went off, and that a certain disgust and contempt crept into me.

It seems I'm not alone...




Bloody! Why do I keep doing this to myself?



Sigh... Because you care about people and you're not a greedy psychopath.

I know I'm not alone...



Time for a rant! (Why should Renegade have all the fun!)
 


Definitely! Grin

The more, the merrier!


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Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker
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