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Author Topic: Just like the MPAA didn't learn from the RIAA, the games industry is next  (Read 5726 times)
Renegade
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« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2012, 10:09:48 AM »

If we take the basic empirical approach, then there is no debate whatsoever -- ideas cannot be property. Period. You can only have exclusive access to an idea if you never share/reveal it. But even then, someone else might think of the same idea... History is full of these kinds of things, e.g. Calculus with Liebniz and Descartes, even though it was known elsewhere centuries before.

While it is true that anything that you say or do that is not obfuscated in some manner cannot be owned, where does this leave the creative side of things?  If you take the money grubbing out, and leave out the non-personal aspect of the corporations, and get back to the very basics as my example above... where is it right or fair that someone who creates this idea and does all of the work on it loses it just because they want to share what they did with the world?

If I create something with my writing that inspires others, then that's a great thing.  But if someone takes my characters to make a profit off of those characters that I create, then in what place is that fair?  And is the only choice give it away or keep it to yourself?


You're absolutely right. I don't really have a good answer.

For musicians... live shows? Seems to work for quite a few bands.

For authors... seminars? Not sure if this can work for many though.

For software authors? Simple. Licensing. (I do NOT want to use "DRM" in this context as many/most software authors are nowhere near the draconian <insert profanity here /> that the media mafia are.)

For graphic artists, sculptors, etc... Still tough... Put it out there and get people to commission works? It worked in the past (hundreds of years ago). Not sure if it can work now or not.

At some level, all artists can get paid for commissioned works. Be that painting, music, web sites, graphics, software, or whatever. However, that also puts it out of reach for most people. For that, I think eliminating a fiat currency that has no value would be a good start. But all that really runs off in a different direction, although strongly related. e.g. Imagine a world where people actually have wealth and it isn't stolen by bankers through usury. (Remember, interest is geometric -- and there's no way around it unless you want to disbelieve in mathematics.)

I don't want to claim that any of the above are real solutions to the problem.

What I would like to suggest is that perhaps "the problem" is how we view it.

I suppose that one thing I've missed through all of this is commercial piracy. I've really only considered personal level piracy. I do view them as fundamentally different.

But I don't have any concrete answers at the moment.

I suppose that the best place to start is with our own attitudes, and I think I've addressed a good amount there, or at least enough to get started.


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40hz
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« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2012, 11:01:16 AM »

The real problem with unpaid content "appropriation" is that it drives professionals off the playing field. After which things such as music, motion pictures, art, news reporting, and literature once again become the exclusive domain of amateurs. Much like it was prior to the 20th century.

Before that, most creative expression was the province of the idle rich. With the result that virtually all art reflected the attitudes and preferences of a very small and disengaged part of the populace. Which in turn shaped social attitude and institutions. Often with disastrous results.

Modern art marketplaces allowed people from all walks a life to participate in creative expression once there was no longer a need for personal financial independence before people could pursue it. The possibility of making a living off creative works opened the doors and tore down the walls economic necessity put up. And removed the need to secure patronage - which allowed for a far greater freedom of expression and subject matter than had existed before.

And with that came new ideas and art forms, new institutions, and new understandings. And all because creative expression no longer relied upon the wealthy to provide or support it.

We're now in danger of losing that because people want to consume but not give back.

Eventually it will lead to fewer choices and lower quality as creative production only remains affordable to large businesses that can give a lot away in order to get the opportunity to make money in a tangental rather than direct fashion.

If genre-mill fiction books, YouTube, and shows like Dancing with the Stars and America's Got Talent strike you as being the epitome of artistic expression, then bootleg books, movies, and music off the torrents as you will.

But if people want and expect better than that, they're going to need to give something back to the creatives before they have to quit - and leave nothing behind but commercial hacks and amateurs to fill the void.

ACTA/SOPA/PIPA isn't the answer to this problem. But neither is the "Why should I have to pay at all?" mindset many people now have.

I'd suggest we start by dumping outmoded and unnecessary parts of the distribution system, since it's the distributors and their trade practices that are the biggest part of the problem right now. Digital downloads have pretty much rendered most of the old industry models obsolete or inapplicable anyway. Much like how telco regulations are designed to protect the quality of analog voice signals even though we're now fully digital - and voice communications only make up about 15-20% of the data packets the telcos are currently sending down their lines. And that percentage is steadily dropping with each passing year.

Once the crud gets cleaned out of the distribution pipes we have a better chance of putting artists directly in touch with their friends and fans. And maybe out of that will come a new awareness of why it's necessary to actively and financially support the arts people are most interested in. And hopefully the people will act on their awareness without the need for givernment (not a typo!) to continue to propose crazy and unworkable laws and other regulatory nonsense.

At least it's worth a try. Because what people and governments are currently doing isn't working. And never will.



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wraith808
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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2012, 11:13:32 AM »

But if people want and expect better than that, they're going to need to give something back to the creatives before they have to quit - and leave nothing behind but commercial hacks and amateurs to fill the void.

ACTA/SOPA/PIPA isn't the answer to this problem. But neither is the "Why should I have to pay at all?" mindset many people now have.

<snip />

At least it's worth a try. Because what people and their governments are doing right now isn't working. And never will.

QFT!  Truthfully, I wouldn't mind if people pirated my work- it's when people steal it that I have problems with it.  To me, though the powers that be want to equate the two, they are totally different.  To pirate, copy, etc means that you enjoy the work and want to consume it.  Paying would help to support- but doing this doesn't do anything to the bottom line, as those that value it pay for it (at least in my optimistic view of things).  Stealing on the other hand is borderline plagiarizing the work (or not so borderline).  It's the excuse that Zynga uses to justify its games- I put a shiny coat on it, so I don't need to pay for the right to create it, even though all of my mechanics are the same as yours.  And what's being done in laws doesn't protect these people... so when is it that the corporate interests go to the well, and find it dry?  As 40 alludes to, if people can't survive off of their work, then the work will start to disappear- at least the professional level.  And that's not a world that I like to think about...
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« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2012, 12:09:32 PM »

Interesting distinction...I like it.
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app103
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« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2012, 05:03:47 PM »

Quote
I think what most consumers don’t realize is that every time they buy a used game, there is ZERO money making it back to the Game Developers.  All of those profits are going directly to the re-seller and making it more and more difficult for us to continue making higher quality products.

There is no profit to be made in buying something at full price, finding out you don't really like it or deciding you don't want it any more, then selling it at less than you paid for it. Ask anyone who has ever had a yard sale if they have ever recovered 100% of what they originally paid for the stuff they sold.

And speaking of making higher quality products, the secret in cutting down on the amount of used stuff sold is to make a higher quality product that people don't want to part with in the first place.
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JavaJones
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« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2012, 02:09:40 PM »

Wait, 40hz, weren't you recently advocating *not buying anything* rather than buying from independents, as I suggested? Isn't that the opposite of "giving something back to the creatives"? cheesy

As for the roots of this problem, let us be clear, there will always be special interests and they will usually have money, and as long as money is involved in the political process it will bias the results towards moneyed interests. There are two possible solutions I see, one more effective than the other but also less likely.

That first approach is to literally remove money from the process, from life in general if possible, but (only slightly more realistically) at least from politics. This is about as likely as me flying around like superman. Even if you could get the system to outlaw campaign contributions, then you're just sending it underground; instead of public lists of who the biggest campaign contributors are as we now have, you have the same - or even larger - amounts of money going from god knows who to whatever politicians, in exchange for no doubt even firmer allegiances, all of it undocumented and untraceable. Remember that outlawing anything that people (or corporations, for that matter) really want to do never stops it, sometimes it even in strange ways encourages it. Look at prohibition or the modern drug war.

Anyway, failing that option, there is something you really *can* advocate for that can make a real difference and actually has a chance of happening. I'm going to put this in bold and underlined so people read it instead of my largely useless preamble above:

Instant Runoff Voting

Instant Runoff Voting is one of a number of alternative voting systems that have a statistically demonstrable and mathematically provable advantage in obtaining fair voting results. It is one of the single most important of possible reforms to any democracy that doesn't already use it. More important than campaign finance reform, more important than redistricting issues, electoral college reform, even Citizens United.

The single biggest threat to the effectiveness of our democracy is our (literally) broken method of electing leaders. Believe it or not it is actually statistically and mathematically demonstrable that a Plurality voting system like the US uses is one of the least fair and effective ways of electing candidates which the majority of voters desire. Think about that for a second. One of the most powerful nations on Earth uses one of the least effective voting methods!

This system has resulted in the widely lamented "2 party system" we have today, in which voting for a "3rd party" ("independent") is almost always seen as useless, "throwing your vote away". This is obviously a very dangerous attitude for the majority to have if we're to have any hope of change. It means that moneyed interests have fewer targets and a much easier time creating consensus for their interests. What we desperately need are more choices, a greater variety of options, diffusion in the political process such that money can concentrate less effectively, and candidates with differing views can at least have the possibility of winning major grass-roots support (which can be incredibly powerful - if there's anything we've learned from the likes of Kickstarter, not to mention the Obama campaign and more, it's that "the people" can really do a lot when inspired). Campaigns like Ralph Nader's have sadly and ironically actually reduced people's hope and desire for 3rd party candidates, because circumstantially many felt that votes for Nader cost Gore the presidency. This is just one example, but a relatively recent and powerful one. Imagine if Instant Runoff Voting, or at least some other more representational system, had existed at that time. The results would have been very different. Simply knowing that your *desires* will *always* be reflected in your vote can dramatically change *how* you vote. From fear-driven to aspirational, hope-driven voting.

The beauty of all this is that IRV has already been implemented in some local governments and has even come close to passing at the state level (Alaska, I believe). It will necessarily start small, just like this, but if we each support IRV or similar ranked voting options in our local and state governments, we can eventually move it up to a national policy vote. If IRV could be made national law for voting on our presidential, congressional, and gubernatorial candidates, I believe we would see a lot of change for the better. If nothing else we would know that the will of the people was being much better reflected, even if that will may manifest sadly in the realization that everyone is stupid after all. Wink

- Oshyan
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40hz
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« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2012, 02:37:09 PM »

Wait, 40hz, weren't you recently advocating *not buying anything* rather than buying from independents, as I suggested? Isn't that the opposite of "giving something back to the creatives"? cheesy

Yes I was. But I've had a little time to think about it so I've modified my stance somewhat. (I'm not so full of myself that I'm unwilling to rethink my position or opinions.)
 tongue


But I still think it would be better not to buy any more than humanly possible until such time as we completely kill off the existing music and record industry. Because as long as they're around funding bad legislation, they will prevent my further suggestion (see below) from ever happening.

Quote
I'd suggest we start by dumping outmoded and unnecessary parts of the distribution system, since it's the distributors and their trade practices that are the biggest part of the problem right now. Digital downloads have pretty much rendered most of the old industry models obsolete or inapplicable anyway.
.
.
.
Once the crud gets cleaned out of the distribution pipes we have a better chance of putting artists directly in touch with their friends and fans. And maybe out of that will come a new awareness of why it's necessary to actively and financially support the arts people are most interested in. And hopefully the people will act on their awareness without the need for givernment (not a typo!) to continue to propose crazy and unworkable laws and other regulatory nonsense.

Unfortunately, as long as these industries exist in their present form, what I'm - and what anyone else is proposing for that matter - won't only be blocked, it will be prevented.

I'm firmly convinced the only way out of this quagmire is for there to be a full-bore Götterdämmerung for the media industry. After which there will finally be a chance for a rational and "fair to artist and audience" model to replace it.

But as long as there's one coke sniffing industry fat cat with a power ponytail and gold chain sitting in an office with a phone - and one moron Congressman somewhere out on the heartland to take a call from him - this will never be over.

So sure. Buy from indies if you can do it without feeding Amazon or Apple. And if that's where they currently are, tell them to get their butts over to bandcamp.com and set up a distribution channel they actually have some control over. (That's where I'm buying most of what I'm getting lately. Be sure to check it out. thumbs up)

And please understand, I'm not out to punish anybody. I just want the idiots gone. No hard feelings. In fact, no feelings whatsoever if you catch my drift.

This is my current rallying song (I love that line: .I used to want you dead, but now I only want you gone... mrgreen):

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVVZaZ8yO6o" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVVZaZ8yO6o</a>

Thanks again Jon Coulton and Portal. You guys must have been reading my mind. Thmbsup

@JJ - Now go watch some freekin' Katzenjammer videos and leave me alone! (P.S. I'm onlykidding...) Grin
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 02:58:55 PM by 40hz » Logged

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TaoPhoenix
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« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2012, 02:55:16 PM »


It's little more than queen's pawn to queen's pawn 3 so far. An opening move. The real battle hasn't even begun yet. And the gloves won't come off until some time after that.
Stretching the chess analogy beyond safe limits:
So the Media Lobbies, with the advantage, are playing White? What's their meta strategy? To play the Queen Pawn systems a tempo down so that we get lulled into thinking they're beaten, or are they playing a King's Indian Attack aka a reversed defense as an offense?  smiley

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JavaJones
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« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2012, 03:15:50 PM »

Yes I was. But I've had a little time to think about it so I've modified my stance somewhat. (I'm not so full of myself that I'm unwilling to rethink my position or opinions.)
 tongue

But I still think it would be better not to buy any more than humanly possible until such time as we completely kill off the existing music and record industry. Because as long as they're around funding bad legislation, they will prevent my further suggestion (see below) from ever happening.

Hooray for the ability to intelligently debate, consider our perspective, and modify our opinions or approach if necessary. I think I can get behind your "minimal consumption" approach. smiley

- Oshyan
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40hz
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« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2012, 03:30:50 PM »

It's little more than queen's pawn to queen's pawn 3 so far. An opening move. The real battle hasn't even begun yet. And the gloves won't come off until some time after that.
Stretching the chess analogy beyond safe limits:
So the Media Lobbies, with the advantage, are playing White? What's their meta strategy? To play the Queen Pawn systems a tempo down so that we get lulled into thinking they're beaten, or are they playing a King's Indian Attack aka a reversed defense as an offense?  smiley



I think their "meta strategy" is to make a totally bizarre move, and then - while we're staring at the board and trying to figure out exactly what that BS is all about - have somebody else (really big) sneak up behind us, bash us over the head with a brick, and then take our wallet and smartphone!!!

Um...I don't know what you'd call that gambit. Or how you'd show it with standard chess notation.
 smiley

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40hz
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« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2012, 03:35:07 PM »

Hooray for the ability to intelligently debate, consider our perspective, and modify our opinions or approach if necessary.

+1. Thmbsup

And if anybody out there has the answer, 40hz will be happy furnish you with full and detailed questions. Grin Cool
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superboyac
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« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2012, 03:55:36 PM »

 greenclp
40!  Stretching out the legs in this thread!  Loving it! read graduate
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superboyac
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« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2012, 05:51:05 PM »

I think their "meta strategy" is to make a totally bizarre move, and then - while we're staring at the board and trying to figure out exactly what that BS is all about - have somebody else (really big) sneak up behind us, bash us over the head with a brick, and then take our wallet and smartphone!!!
This is not exactly it, but you reminded me of this little prank:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQfUZkPZHJQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQfUZkPZHJQ</a>
I'd say the pusher is the MPAA/RIAA and the politicians are the crouchers.
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