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editor learning curves

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gjehle:
Being quite new here (i was forced to register :o) i like to introduce myself.
I'm an outspoken linux fanatic and vim-loving c/c++ coder. (no flamewars, kthx)
Against my belive i got forced into prostitution by work (just kidding), which required using VC++ for coding MFC apps.
One might also find some of my code in mouser's mircryption for xchat.

That being said, without further ado, the real reason for this post (and basically the reason i got forced to sign up, right mouser ;)?) is this find:

mouser:
hahaha i love it.
glad we succeeded in pressuring you to register, gjehle :)

moerl:
Here is how hadez' forced join to the forum came about, and also a little discussion on the Visual Studio curve :P

[hadez posts link to above image]

(MoeRL) how can a learning curve go DOWN?
(hadez) MoeRL, if you know everything and dont learn anything new............

(@mouser) hadez post that in programmer section
(hadez) it's 0
(hadez) mouser dunno if i have an account
(hadez) ;)
(@mouser) damn you
(@mouser) sign up
(hadez) lol
(jgpaiva) hadez: maybe it's a good time to create one? :P
(hadez) so many accounts, so many forums, so few spare time
(hadez) :D
...
• hadez signed up
(hadez) i dood it
...
(@MouserBot) [DC Forum] editor learning curves - https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=2971.msg20201#msg20201 - by gjehle
(15:09:15) (hadez) hehe
(15:09:16) (hadez) there we go

[And that is the story of how hadez was "forced" to sign up at DonationCoder.com forums! What follows is the drawn-out discussion about one of the graphs.]

............ (MoeRL) Right.. but 0 isn't negative. If you're not learning anything new, you're not ADDING anything.. but neither are you SUBTRACTIN G anything ;)
(jgpaiva) MoeRL imagine this:
(jgpaiva) you learn something, then you understand it was not right
(jgpaiva) you've regressed :P
(MoeRL) So you learn something, and then you learn about that something that it is invalid and you dump it again from your database of knowledge
(MoeRL) hmm
(MoeRL) It would be good if you knew what's right and what's wrong before learning it.. and think of it this way: learning things that aren't right is not regression. It's very much ADDITION in that you add wisdom in knowing what is wrong :)
(jgpaiva) well.. you don't dump it, you just put it in the last end of your knowledge pile, to be the next thing to be deleted :P
(MoeRL) You don't want to delete it though.. because with its deletion you delete the knowledge that it is wrong and thereby set yourself up to make the same mistake.
(MoeRL) It would be wiser to archive it and have it ready to be called up if you are about to re-learn the same wrong thing, to redo the mistake.
(jgpaiva) but it's not that much of important knowledge, you just know you don't wanna do that
(jgpaiva) so, part of it, you just forget
(MoeRL) Ergo, you add knowledge.
(jgpaiva) yes, you can add knowledge, but part of it is forgotten, you only keep the beggining
(jgpaiva) imagine it's a giant unuseful algorith
(jgpaiva) you don't actually remember it all
(jgpaiva) you remember it's name
(jgpaiva) or you have a general idea of it
(jgpaiva) so, you actually forget part of it
(MoeRL) Well, the actual knowledge of how to do what is wrong is worthless, because it's wrong, so obviously you're going to forget that part, but not the part about the fact that it IS wrong.
(jgpaiva) yes, you keep a small reference to it being wrong
(jgpaiva) but not the whole data, though
(MoeRL) Right.
(MoeRL) Exactly.
(jgpaiva) so, the natural thing to think about that graphic, is that it can come down, but not until 0 ;)
(MoeRL) So you can't tell me that you learn SO MUCH bullshit that it can constitute for such a drastic reversal of the learning curve for Visual Studio :)
(MoeRL) It may come down, but it sure as hell would not be a bell curve!
(jgpaiva) actually, i never used VS, i was only giving a generic example
(MoeRL) If the climax of the curve is 10 and we start at 0, the curve would go from 0 to ten to maybe 7 or 8.. but hardly back down to zero or even to something close to zero :)
(MoeRL) Besides and disregarding ALL that has been said above, a learning curve cannot logically decline.
(jgpaiva) lol
(MoeRL) lol
(jgpaiva) i can't agree with you on that
(jgpaiva) i keep forgetting things i already learned
(jgpaiva) so, a learning curve about some determinate thing, might decrease
(MoeRL) You learn how to use it and that's that. It's trial and error. If you press the wrong button in the interface you'll know immediately that's not what you wanted to do, so you will not learn the useless part, the wrong part, you will learn the positive part, namely that that button doesn't do what you want it to do, but that it does something else instead, and you're going to remember that function it ACTUALLY performs, not the fact that it does NOT perform what you meant it would.
(MoeRL) Yeah but that I would call actual knowledge or mastery. Not learning curve.
(jgpaiva) yes, at short term, that's what happens
(MoeRL) The learning curve is what you have in the beginning, it's what it takes to get to a level of proficiency in something. After that you modify your knowledge, improve and enhance it, change it even, and while you are indeed still learning, I would not consider that part of the initial learning CURVE anymore.
(jgpaiva) oh, i see what you mean
(jgpaiva) a learning curve nly makes sense while you learn
(MoeRL) But you learn forever, all the way until you die.
(MoeRL) And I can't accept the notion that the ENTIRE PROCESS is supposed to be a learning curve.
(jgpaiva) still, you might be learning something, and forget the beggining of it
(MoeRL) Hardly. The beginning is the basics. A builds on B which preceded it, which builds on C which preceded B, etc... you can't know A, in other words, if you don't know C :)
(MoeRL) At least I'd say in programming it's like that, and in math.
(MoeRL) Not necessarily in politics :P
(jgpaiva) lol
(jgpaiva) yes, then it depends on what matter you're thinking about
(MoeRL) Or in sex. I for one was a master at the latter the day that I lost my virginity!
(MoeRL) LOL
(jgpaiva) if it's a inter-dependable matter, a learning curve can't go down
(MoeRL) Because I had watched so much porn I knew all there was to know, almost. I continue to expand that knowledge to this day, of course, both with an extensive consumption of porn as well as with the actual performance of the act.
(jgpaiva) then, you lost some of the mastering? :P
(jgpaiva) ahah
(jgpaiva) practice.. practice is important :P
• jgpaiva asks kindly to MouserBot to be contemplated with an op
(MoeRL) Though I sadly must admit that the last instance of performance is distancing itself a bit too far--so much so it could be considered historical at this point in time. The porn consumption, on the other hand, the accessibility of which is so infinitely much higher, does not show any breaks in the consumption curve :P
(jgpaiva) lol MoeRL
(jgpaiva) "the accessibility of which is so infinitely much higher" <- LOL
(MoeRL) Of course I'm joking. Well, partly. I knew a lot when it first happened, but I was nowhere near a fucking master lol. Anybody who thinks he is is a damn fool.
(jgpaiva) hadez: good to know you signed up ;)
(jgpaiva) "Anybody who thinks he is is a damn fool" <- agreed
(jgpaiva) :)
(MoeRL) hadez, your timing is great too. You're witnessing some great IRC content here.
(hadez) lol

[And that is the discussion about the Visual Studio graph!]

Got anything to add? Please do!

mouser:
ps. instructions on how to join the donationcoder channel for live chat:
https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=772.0

ps2.
damn it the one time i have no funny lines is when someone decides to make a chat excerpt.

mouser:
so.. emacs causes time itself to reverse and go backwards?
or else the emacs diagram shows a quantum probability space.

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