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As a counter-point to the SOPA/PIPA demonstration
40hz:
Well it would be interesting to know what percentage of content on MegaUpload was legal v illegal.
The disease being lack of access/means to legitimate means to get digital content.-Renegade (January 22, 2012, 08:54 PM)
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Yes and no. There is an 'entitled' generation growing up for whom they very concept of paying for music doesn't make sense. Pretending that, when offered with a very convenient means to buy music, they will choose too is as big lie as the ones Big Content are spewing.
-Eóin (January 23, 2012, 08:49 AM)
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-40hz (January 23, 2012, 08:53 AM)
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Agree 100%.
Some people operate out of an innate sense of returning value for value received - and many don't.
Returning value is an adult concept. Some never reach that level of personal maturity. And, from my own casual observations, I strongly suspect their numbers are growing.
But considering how much our society has come to accept childish behavior, it's hardly surprising. :-\
Renegade:
Well it would be interesting to know what percentage of content on MegaUpload was legal v illegal.
The disease being lack of access/means to legitimate means to get digital content.-Renegade (January 22, 2012, 08:54 PM)
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Yes and no. There is an 'entitled' generation growing up for whom they very concept of paying for music doesn't make sense. Pretending that, when offered with a very convenient means to buy music, they will choose too is as big lie as the ones Big Content are spewing.
-Eóin (January 23, 2012, 08:49 AM)
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-40hz (January 23, 2012, 08:53 AM)
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Agree 100%.
Some people operate out of an innate sense of returning value for value received - and many don't.
Returning value is an adult concept. Some never reach that level of personal maturity. And, from my own casual observations, I strongly suspect their numbers are growing.
But considering how much our society has come to accept childish behavior, it's hardly surprising. :-\
-40hz (January 23, 2012, 09:00 AM)
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Well, here I go...
Not agreeing...
That might be because you didn't read what I'd intended or I'd not written it clearly enough.
I absolutely do not believe that I can find fault with someone stealing food because they're starving. Period.
There is very real poverty out there. That's what I mean by "no means".
I suffer more than you will ever know from piracy. Don't think for a second that I don't have less food on my table because of piracy. It hurts my income a LOT.
However, I refuse to blame someone that makes $400 a year for pirating my software. Those people aren't the problem.
The problem is the people that can afford my software and refuse to pay for it because they're simply cheap/douchey/thieves.
Now, for access... That's another issue.
Access is important. You need to make things available to people in a way that it is POSSIBLE for them to pay you. If you don't make it possible for them to pay you, well, then f*** you. You should have been ready to take their money when they were willing to give it to you. Period. I have no sympathy for anyone that wants to segment markets and discriminate and just be a total douche.
If someone wants to give you money -- take it. It's a very simple concept.
Don't want to take their money? Then STFU about piracy. Period.
40hz:
However, I refuse to blame someone that makes $400 a year for pirating my software. Those people aren't the problem.
-Renegade (January 23, 2012, 10:39 AM)
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I hear what you're saying. But you have to be careful with situational ethics. All distinctions such as these avoid dealing with the underlying issue by creating exceptions. And it leads down an endless path. By way of example:
As a counter-point to the SOPA/PIPA demonstration
I don't have an issue with people who are taking something against the wishes of its creator if they are making less than $400.
What about if they're making $450 or less?
I still don't have a problem with that...
Ok. How about $600?
Not too much a problem...
How about $100,000?
Yes. I'd have a problem with those people.
Why?
Because they can afford it.
How do you know they can? Or the people making only $400 can't?
Well...there's a big difference between $400 and $100,000...
So what? Maybe the $100K guy is paying all the medical bills for his mother and is broke for all intents and purposes. Maybe the guy with $400 has no bills or responsibilities because he lives with his parents who pay for everything and don't care. So that $400 is pure disposable money burning a hole in his pocket.
Well...you can come up with an exception for everything.
Precisely. If $400 is ok, why not $450? If $450 is ok, how about $600? If ...
Ok, ok. I see your point.
Glad you do. Because I grabbed a cracked copy of your software off the torrents last week.
That wasn't right of you to do that.
How can you know possibly argue that?
Because you could afford it. And so could a lot of the people who will be downloading it.
How can you possibly know that?
Something seems wrong with this argument you're making.
There's nothing wrong with it. You're the one that introduced exceptions into the debate as wildcard arguments. Once you do that, you can argue virtually anything and not be wrong.
But...but...
But me no buts! Unless you want to go back and possibly consider there are the deeper issues of morality and personal responsibility lurking under all this - and trying to duck it by introducing exceptions isn't an effective way to get down to the real issue.
I'm a little conflicted by all of this.
Don't worry. We all are. So let's not let ourselves get distracted by bullshit arguments while we're trying to get it all sorted out.
Anybody ever tell you you're a royal pain in the butt sometimes?
At least once a day...it keeps me young.
-An example
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8) ;)
superboyac:
I'll be honest: I struggle with where I stand on these issues. I can argue from both sides. But they are not even giving the other side a chance to speak or have a part in the decision making. I tend to favor less rules over more, especially if personal safety isn't involved. Because real life situations are typically pretty messy. There are no clear boundaries between this and that. if someone is being hurt and that can be avoided, that's good. But SOPA and this stuff is purely about control.
Yes, it's wrong for the people to steal this content. On the other hand, there's this argument:
ignore all the rules and legalities for a while. Life doesn't really work that way. it's convenient for discussion and exploring things academically, but life is different. it's messier, as I like to say. As someone mentioned here, we are living in times now where it's necessary for most people to have 2-3 incomes to support a family. Why is that? Well, a lot of the money represented by that hard work is quickly going away from those who are earning it. Mortgages, investments, college education, all the biggies. And that money gets played with (yes, that's the perfect word for it) in places that are inaccessible to most of us. Inaccessible not only physically, but also mentally. We have NO idea what is going on, which means we have no way to really think about it properly, and even if we could there would be nothing we could do about it. Are they following the rules? How would we know? I can assure you, they are not following rules...and they are getting away with it far more easily than even the 15 year old who is getting a megaupload file (which is easy).
So that's the money problem. So if you don't have a lot of money, getting an illegal file or two off of megaupload is a small way to feel like you can gain back some of that wealth. Now, is it ethical? I don't know, it's hard to say. It's not ethical taken as an isolated incident. But with that larger perspective, it gets more complicated. If we're going to talk theft, let's talk theft. Not just the kinds of theft that those with little money participate in. That's not about theft, then. That's about power and control.
but I hate how this is all talked about in black and white terms. If whoever was in charge of these decisions could allow a healthy discussion on both sides, i'm sure a nice, balanced agreement could come out of it. But good luck to that. As everyone pointed out, the politics of today are just getting more and more BS to the point where we don't know what anyone is talking about anymore. I sure hope 2012 changes things for the better. I almost feel like there is far too much awareness now for things to get worse. Like, if with all this awareness, the powerful try to get their way even more, I feel the people will come to a breaking point. So I'm hoping that the ultimate shift in 2012 will be one of the powerful conceding a little bit because there is too much awareness not to.
But I may be naive.
40hz:
Then STFU about piracy. Period.
-Renegade (January 23, 2012, 10:39 AM)
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@Ren - minor niggle & a personal request: Could we maybe not do the STFU thing here? There's better ways to say it...and this isn't MySpace. :)
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