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Author Topic: As a counter-point to the SOPA/PIPA demonstration  (Read 17369 times)
IainB
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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2012, 07:15:04 AM »

They will ram their police state legislation down our throats, and if they fail there, they'll ram it up our asses.

Well, is it possible that that is all the nation (collectively) deserves?
I think you may find several examples of this sort of post commentary: Don't Trust Your Instincts
Quote
Look at this piece of instinctual wisdom: Everyone should vote. In the last big election, only 90 million people voted out of more than 200 million eligible voters. That's terrible, we're told. But it's not terrible because a lot of people are ignorant. When I asked people to identify pictures of Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich, almost half couldn't.

An implication of this is that some people might say, for example:
Quote
That if a public majority are unable - for whatever reason - to take the responsibility for understanding what they need to vote about, and then actually exercising that vote, then maybe they don't need to vote. Maybe it's just too much to expect of them, and maybe all they really need is to be told what to do, when to do it and how/what to think, and they'll be quite happy in that state.

Could that be a substantiation for your police state?
If moves towards becoming a police/totalitarian state have already been started by degrees, then maybe it's all over for you by now anyway.

For example, this discussion: Opinion — Mark Levin: You Cannot Have This EPA and a Constitution
- since the EPA is apparently riding roughshod over the thing.
Quote
Mark Levin says America cannot at the same time have a Constitution and an Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) that is doing what the EPA is doing today.
Levin made the observation in an interview with CNSNews.com about his new book, “Ameritopia: The Unmaking of America.”

How about this? Is the EPA "The Very Definition of Tyranny"?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 07:33:43 AM by IainB » Logged
Renegade
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« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2012, 07:36:35 AM »

I agree that 2012 will be pivotal. The hideous shadow of world government is looming. It's becoming (well, has been becoming for years) a world of sheeple ruled by the elite.

+1

@40hz - love that graphic! smiley It's just bang on!

@Iain - Regarding this:

Quote
Maybe it's just too much to expect of them

In many ways it is too much.

Society has been destroyed in so many, many ways... We've gone from 1 income to needing 2. Some people work 2 or 3 jobs.

Fact is that humans have limited amounts of energy/resources, and when they are overwhelming consumed by just trying to get by, well... go figure. They don't have time/energy/resources to do the work needed to become informed about politics.

When everything runs from 9 to 5, and they're at work, they have no opportunity to do anything. They're excluded from participating because they need to work to live.

"Hey, can I get this week here on the calendar off? I'd like to go to the caucus and campaign for someone who won't screw us over with infinite wars, etc. etc."

Like, does anyone really think that they could ask their boss that? At best that would be kissing their holiday time goodbye. People need to rest periodically, and zero holiday time is just bad.

So, in many ways I can understand why it's so difficult for people to get involved in politics at any level. The deck is stacked against them.

In short, don't expect people to donate blood after you've thrown them to a pack of vampires.


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wraith808
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« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2012, 10:23:42 AM »

Another interesting article from Ars on the whole MegaUpload raid:

Why the Feds Smashed MegaUpload

And an interesting footnote on MegaUpload

Before shutdown, Megaupload ate up more corporate bandwidth than Dropbox
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« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2012, 10:58:14 AM »

Another interesting article from Ars on the whole MegaUpload raid:

Why the Feds Smashed MegaUpload

And an interesting footnote on MegaUpload

Before shutdown, Megaupload ate up more corporate bandwidth than Dropbox


I read some similar articles.

I'm finding a few things disappointing.

1) The media is spinning things. What cars they drive just isn't relevant.
2) They're not going to get a fair trial. It is imperative that these people receive due process.
3) They've been crucified even before any verdict.

About #3 there - They've already destroyed MegaUpload. It's gone. Poof. Nadda. Zilch.

Ahem... Ummm... Seriously? WTF?

Union Carbide (now owned by Dow) is guilty of one of the biggest environmental catastrophes of all time and nothing significant has happened to them. Nothing.

BP similarly was guilty of utter criminal behaviour that led to another gigantic environmental disaster... What happened? Nothing.

Numerous banks and financial institutions have caused unheard of suffering and destruction throughout society. Their behaviour is criminal. What happens? Nothing. Ooops... Sorry... They get massive bonuses...

Big media lies and publishes defamatory and libel garbage... What happens? Nothing. They get some awards or some crap as they pat themselves on their backs and stroke... well... you get the idea there.

The list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on...


MegaUpload is insignificant compared to anything above. What happens to them? Crucifixion.

I'd like to see some rule of law applied. But... That's too much to ask. I know... I'm a radical freak. I believe in equality and the rule of law and other insane concepts like that...  undecided


Just watch. This case and the Anonymous reaction will be used to strip more freedoms and liberties away from people. They'll scream about how "piracy costs trillions of jobs and bajillions of dollars" (just like they always exaggerate with insane numbers) and how the hacktivists are "cyber terrorists out to destroy the planet and eat your children". We need to enslave you so that you can be safe and free. War is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength. Just watch... It's coming. The first quarter of 2012 will prove me right.  Angry



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« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2012, 11:50:58 AM »

Fact is that humans have limited amounts of energy/resources, and when they are overwhelming consumed by just trying to get by, well... go figure. They don't have time/energy/resources to do the work needed to become informed about politics.

When everything runs from 9 to 5, and they're at work, they have no opportunity to do anything. They're excluded from participating because they need to work to live.

Exactly. Now compound that by the convoluted manner in which the issues are addresses during election debates/interviews. The one classic example that always stuck with me was when ABC's Charlie Gibson interviewed Sara Palin. He asked her a simple direct Yes-on-No question. She responded by babbling for 10 minutes straight, and never once said yes, no, or even addressed the friggin question. Charlie countered by re-asking he exact same question and directly specified that he was looking for a Yes-or-No reply. Her response? 10 more minutes of distracted puppet shit.

When a politician answers a direct question the only thing that can be guaranteed...Is that nobody in the room will have the slightest clue what the fuck their talking about. Because it's just one long string of complete bullshit.

Now let one of us try that shit in a court of law... HA!

I want to see politicians subjected to the exact same treatment that any other crackhead junkie whore would be given if they got evasive in court. <-- Senator... If the next word out of your mouth isn't either yes...or no ... Your ass is going to jail for somewhere between 90 days and whenever I damn well feel like you've learned your lesson. --> Now that's a government that fears its people.
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« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2012, 12:41:32 PM »

Fact is that humans have limited amounts of energy/resources, and when they are overwhelming consumed by just trying to get by, well... go figure. They don't have time/energy/resources to do the work needed to become informed about politics.

When everything runs from 9 to 5, and they're at work, they have no opportunity to do anything. They're excluded from participating because they need to work to live.

Exactly. Now compound that by the convoluted manner in which the issues are addresses during election debates/interviews. The one classic example that always stuck with me was when ABC's Charlie Gibson interviewed Sara Palin. He asked her a simple direct Yes-on-No question. She responded by babbling for 10 minutes straight, and never once said yes, no, or even addressed the friggin question. Charlie countered by re-asking he exact same question and directly specified that he was looking for a Yes-or-No reply. Her response? 10 more minutes of distracted puppet shit.

When a politician answers a direct question the only thing that can be guaranteed...Is that nobody in the room will have the slightest clue what the fuck their talking about. Because it's just one long string of complete bullshit.

Now let one of us try that shit in a court of law... HA!

I want to see politicians subjected to the exact same treatment that any other crackhead junkie whore would be given if they got evasive in court. <-- Senator... If the next word out of your mouth isn't either yes...or no ... Your ass is going to jail for somewhere between 90 days and whenever I damn well feel like you've learned your lesson. --> Now that's a government that fears its people.


A-F*****G-MEN BROTHER~!

I do have to give credit where it is due though... I was simply blown away when I first heard Ron Paul. I shit myself. I couldn't believe what I heard.

Check out the debates with him. You'll get some wanker trying to trap him with a loaded question, but he corrects the question, then answers it damn fast.

Right now, there are 3 politicians that I would count among those I would love to... uh... let's skip that part... those 3 are Ron Paul, Rand Paul, and Bernie Sanders.


Heck, I'm not even American. (Canadian) I have a very deep respect for the American Constitution. It's a deeply moving document that if you really understand it (or even a small portion of it), and you really understand history (even a small portion of the 20th century), there's nothing to do but cry.


I just have so much respect for those 3 men. They are real heroes.


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« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2012, 12:50:59 PM »

2) They're not going to get a fair trial. It is imperative that these people receive due process.

Extradition hearings should be interesting.

Quote
Union Carbide (now owned by Dow) is guilty of one of the biggest environmental catastrophes of all time and nothing significant has happened to them. Nothing.

What you said.

Quote
I'd like to see some rule of law applied. But... That's too much to ask. I know... I'm a radical freak. I believe in equality and the rule of law and other insane concepts like that...  undecided

You're a radical, terrorist-sympathizer leftie! Welcome to the club, there's plenty of room.

To add just one more example - when Muammar Gaddafi was on the run, Europol (or was it Interpol?) sent out a WANTED notice, level orange, which means "pretty important". The same "wanted" notice for Julian Assange was level red.
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« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2012, 10:59:14 PM »

Well, the censorship continues:

http://rt.com/news/irania...sstv-license-revoked-333/

Quote
Britain has revoked the press license of Iran-based English language broadcaster Press TV, accusing it of violating press regulations. But some say the decision was really motivated by British geopolitical interests.

The Office of Communications (Ofcom), a government-approved watchdog overseeing broadcasting and telecommunications in the UK, says the channel does not control its content.

It also says the channel’s license should be held by its office in Tehran, not London, since its editorial control is clearly coming from the Iranian capital.

In addition, Press TV is accused of not paying a fine of £100,000 ($156,000) for airing an interview with an imprisoned journalist in 2009.


They're playing games and flat out censoring PressTV. They're just making excuses.

Like, how the heck do you get fined for airing news or an interview?

This really, truly is a BIG DEAL. It's purely aimed at killing dissent as they prepare for war.

Who here ever thought that they'd see this kind of censorship when they were in high school reading books like Fahrenheit 451?


Edit:
From Press TV: http://www.presstv.ir/detail/222122.html



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« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2012, 11:55:01 PM »

We are almost at the end of a dangerous path <--- for the first time this statement is not even remotely alarmist anymore
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TaoPhoenix
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« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2012, 06:56:37 PM »

  Angry

You were too generous with your smiley.
 deal
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tranglos
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« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2012, 07:41:42 AM »


PressTV is almost lucky. Al Jazeera got bombed instead, in Baghdad, when the war criminals did not like their news.

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« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2012, 09:32:04 AM »


Exactly. Now compound that by the convoluted manner in which the issues are addresses during election debates/interviews. The one classic example that always stuck with me was when ABC's Charlie Gibson interviewed Sara Palin. He asked her a simple direct Yes-on-No question. She responded by babbling for 10 minutes straight, and never once said yes, no, or even addressed the friggin question. Charlie countered by re-asking he exact same question and directly specified that he was looking for a Yes-or-No reply. Her response? 10 more minutes of distracted puppet shit.

When a politician answers a direct question the only thing that can be guaranteed...Is that nobody in the room will have the slightest clue what the fuck their talking about. Because it's just one long string of complete bullshit.


Oh! I know this one!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He02Z5YdZbg
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« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2012, 09:32:24 AM »


PressTV is almost lucky. Al Jazeera got bombed instead, in Baghdad, when the war criminals did not like their news.


+1

You just can't make this stuff up. The complete insanity of it is just beyond belief.


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« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2012, 09:33:58 AM »

Well, the censorship continues:


How about this one for censorship?!
http://www.guardian.co.uk...eath-sentence-pornography

Iranian web programmer faces execution on porn charges

Saeed Malekpour sentenced to death after allegedly confessing under torture
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« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2012, 09:45:30 AM »

Well, the censorship continues:


How about this one for censorship?!
http://www.guardian.co.uk...eath-sentence-pornography

Iranian web programmer faces execution on porn charges

Saeed Malekpour sentenced to death after allegedly confessing under torture


Dunno.

But, from the article, they execute about 1 person every 8 hours...

Now, depending on what stats you use...

Deaths in the Iraq war:

9 per hour.

(2 per hour in low estimates.)

That's just Iraq. Not Afghanistan.

Looks like the US is much better at killing people than Iran. Tehran really needs to step up its game if it wants to be taken seriously on the world stage.


Still... it's kind of crazy to blame anyone for putting porn on the Internet. Like, that's what the Internet is for!


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNARJPNz2CA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNARJPNz2CA</a>


Heck, even Cookie Monster knows that~! tongue



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Eóin
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« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2012, 05:10:32 PM »

I'm never quite sure where I stand on the idea of Johnny Joe sharing a copy of an album he bought with Jimmy Bob down the road. Frankly I find it difficult say they are doing anything wrong.

On the other hand MegaUpload and similar sites are profiting by distributing other peoples works. Once you make money, you're no longer sharing, and you deserve to be stopped.
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wraith808
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« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2012, 06:35:28 PM »

On the other hand MegaUpload and similar sites are profiting by distributing other peoples works. Once you make money, you're no longer sharing, and you deserve to be stopped.

Ummm... no.  They're profiting by giving space and bandwidth to people to share whatever they want.  They aren't distributing anything.

For instance... I have a friend that does his own music.  He used megaupload to store backups of works in progress, and allow others to get them.  His backups are gone now.  (He still has them, and can use another service... but still...)
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« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2012, 08:54:58 PM »

On the other hand MegaUpload and similar sites are profiting by distributing other peoples works. Once you make money, you're no longer sharing, and you deserve to be stopped.

Ummm... no.  They're profiting by giving space and bandwidth to people to share whatever they want.  They aren't distributing anything.

For instance... I have a friend that does his own music.  He used megaupload to store backups of works in progress, and allow others to get them.  His backups are gone now.  (He still has them, and can use another service... but still...)

+1

There's a difference between the act and the technology used in the act.

The same thing goes for guns. i.e. Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

You can't blame a beer bottle for assault. You can't blame a a car for drunk driving.

Guilt by association is a weak argument at best, but it doesn't transfer to inanimate objects/things/code/software.


Piracy is a symptom of a disease. It isn't the disease itself. Cure the disease, and you'll curtail most piracy. (The disease being lack of access/means to legitimate means to get digital content. This is a very involved issue that I don't think we should get into as it is simply too charged with politics.)



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Eóin
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« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2012, 08:49:08 AM »

Well it would be interesting to know what percentage of content on MegaUpload was legal v illegal.

The disease being lack of access/means to legitimate means to get digital content.

Yes and no. There is an 'entitled' generation growing up for whom they very concept of paying for music doesn't make sense. Pretending that, when offered with a very convenient means to buy music, they will choose too is as big lie as the ones Big Content are spewing.
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40hz
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« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2012, 08:53:08 AM »

Well it would be interesting to know what percentage of content on MegaUpload was legal v illegal.

The disease being lack of access/means to legitimate means to get digital content.

Yes and no. There is an 'entitled' generation growing up for whom they very concept of paying for music doesn't make sense. Pretending that, when offered with a very convenient means to buy music, they will choose too is as big lie as the ones Big Content are spewing.

Agree 100%.

Some people operate out of an innate sense of returning value for value received - and many don't.

Returning value is an adult concept. Some never reach that level of personal maturity.

Considering how much our society has become accepting of childish behaviors it's hardly surprising.  undecided
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40hz
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« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2012, 09:00:53 AM »

Well it would be interesting to know what percentage of content on MegaUpload was legal v illegal.

The disease being lack of access/means to legitimate means to get digital content.

Yes and no. There is an 'entitled' generation growing up for whom they very concept of paying for music doesn't make sense. Pretending that, when offered with a very convenient means to buy music, they will choose too is as big lie as the ones Big Content are spewing.

Agree 100%.

Some people operate out of an innate sense of returning value for value received - and many don't.

Returning value is an adult concept. Some never reach that level of personal maturity. And, from my own casual observations, I strongly suspect their numbers are growing.

But considering how much our society has come to accept childish behavior, it's hardly surprising.  undecided
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« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2012, 10:39:59 AM »

Well it would be interesting to know what percentage of content on MegaUpload was legal v illegal.

The disease being lack of access/means to legitimate means to get digital content.

Yes and no. There is an 'entitled' generation growing up for whom they very concept of paying for music doesn't make sense. Pretending that, when offered with a very convenient means to buy music, they will choose too is as big lie as the ones Big Content are spewing.

Agree 100%.

Some people operate out of an innate sense of returning value for value received - and many don't.

Returning value is an adult concept. Some never reach that level of personal maturity. And, from my own casual observations, I strongly suspect their numbers are growing.

But considering how much our society has come to accept childish behavior, it's hardly surprising.  undecided


Well, here I go...

Not agreeing...

That might be because you didn't read what I'd intended or I'd not written it clearly enough.

I absolutely do not believe that I can find fault with someone stealing food because they're starving. Period.

There is very real poverty out there. That's what I mean by "no means".

I suffer more than you will ever know from piracy. Don't think for a second that I don't have less food on my table because of piracy. It hurts my income a LOT.


However, I refuse to blame someone that makes $400 a year for pirating my software. Those people aren't the problem.

The problem is the people that can afford my software and refuse to pay for it because they're simply cheap/douchey/thieves.


Now, for access... That's another issue.

Access is important. You need to make things available to people in a way that it is POSSIBLE for them to pay you. If you don't make it possible for them to pay you, well, then f*** you. You should have been ready to take their money when they were willing to give it to you. Period. I have no sympathy for anyone that wants to segment markets and discriminate and just be a total douche.

If someone wants to give you money -- take it. It's a very simple concept.

Don't want to take their money? Then STFU about piracy. Period.





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« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2012, 11:16:53 AM »

However, I refuse to blame someone that makes $400 a year for pirating my software. Those people aren't the problem.

I hear what you're saying. But you have to be careful with situational ethics. All distinctions such as these avoid dealing with the underlying issue by creating exceptions. And it leads down an endless path. By way of example:



Quote from: An example
I don't have an issue with people who are taking something against the wishes of its creator if they are making less than $400.

    What about if they're making $450 or less?

I still don't have a problem with that...

    Ok. How about $600?

Not too much a problem...

    How about $100,000?

Yes. I'd have a problem with those people.

    Why?

Because they can afford it.

    How do you know they can? Or the people making only $400 can't?

Well...there's a big difference between $400 and $100,000...

    So what? Maybe the $100K guy is paying all the medical bills for his mother and is broke for all intents and purposes. Maybe the guy with $400 has no bills or responsibilities because he lives with his parents who pay for everything and don't care. So that $400 is pure disposable money burning a hole in his pocket.

Well...you can come up with an exception for everything.

     Precisely. If $400 is ok, why not $450? If $450 is ok, how about $600? If ...

Ok, ok. I see your point.

     Glad you do. Because I grabbed a cracked copy of your software off the torrents last week.

That wasn't right of you to do that.

     How can you know possibly argue that?

Because you could afford it. And so could a lot of the people who will be downloading it.

    How can you possibly know that?

Something seems wrong with this argument you're making.

    There's nothing wrong with it. You're the one that introduced exceptions into the debate as wildcard arguments. Once you do that, you can argue virtually anything and not be wrong.

But...but...

     But me no buts! Unless you want to go back and possibly consider there are the deeper issues of morality and personal responsibility lurking under all this - and trying to duck it by introducing exceptions isn't an effective way to get down to the real issue.

I'm a little conflicted by all of this.

     Don't worry. We all are. So let's not let ourselves get distracted by bullshit arguments while we're trying to get it all sorted out.

Anybody ever tell you you're a royal pain in the butt sometimes?

     At least once a day...it keeps me young.



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« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 01:22:21 PM by 40hz » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2012, 11:24:51 AM »

I'll be honest: I struggle with where I stand on these issues.  I can argue from both sides.  But they are not even giving the other side a chance to speak or have a part in the decision making.  I tend to favor less rules over more, especially if personal safety isn't involved.  Because real life situations are typically pretty messy.  There are no clear boundaries between this and that.  if someone is being hurt and that can be avoided, that's good.  But SOPA and this stuff is purely about control.
Yes, it's wrong for the people to steal this content.  On the other hand, there's this argument:
ignore all the rules and legalities for a while.  Life doesn't really work that way.  it's convenient for discussion and exploring things academically, but life is different.  it's messier, as I like to say.  As someone mentioned here, we are living in times now where it's necessary for most people to have 2-3 incomes to support a family.  Why is that?  Well, a lot of the money represented by that hard work is quickly going away from those who are earning it.  Mortgages, investments, college education, all the biggies.  And that money gets played with (yes, that's the perfect word for it) in places that are inaccessible to most of us.  Inaccessible not only physically, but also mentally.  We have NO idea what is going on, which means we have no way to really think about it properly, and even if we could there would be nothing we could do about it.  Are they following the rules?  How would we know?  I can assure you, they are not following rules...and they are getting away with it far more easily than even the 15 year old who is getting a megaupload file (which is easy).

So that's the money problem.  So if you don't have a lot of money, getting an illegal file or two off of megaupload is a small way to feel like you can gain back some of that wealth.  Now, is it ethical?  I don't know, it's hard to say.  It's not ethical taken as an isolated incident.  But with that larger perspective, it gets more complicated.  If we're going to talk theft, let's talk theft.  Not just the kinds of theft that those with little money participate in.  That's not about theft, then.  That's about power and control.

but I hate how this is all talked about in black and white terms.  If whoever was in charge of these decisions could allow a healthy discussion on both sides, i'm sure a nice, balanced agreement could come out of it.  But good luck to that.  As everyone pointed out, the politics of today are just getting more and more BS to the point where we don't know what anyone is talking about anymore.  I sure hope 2012 changes things for the better.  I almost feel like there is far too much awareness now for things to get worse.  Like, if with all this awareness, the powerful try to get their way even more, I feel the people will come to a breaking point.  So I'm hoping that the ultimate shift in 2012 will be one of the powerful conceding a little bit because there is too much awareness not to.

But I may be naive.
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40hz
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« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2012, 11:29:23 AM »

Then STFU about piracy. Period.

@Ren - minor niggle & a personal request: Could we maybe not do the STFU thing here? There's better ways to say it...and this isn't MySpace. smiley
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Don't you see? It's turtles all the way down!
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