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Last post Author Topic: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??  (Read 7718 times)

Stoic Joker

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Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« on: January 07, 2012, 01:58:40 PM »
So I was planning on trying something new in the way of a development project. This required installing an updated SDK and a few other add-ons for MSVS2008 which I've been using since I got bit by the lack of DPIAware support in MSVS2005 a while back. Simple enough... Right? No.

First I decided to try winging the VS08 SDK7 integration, because I didn't notice the tool for that/was in a hurry/have gotten away with this sort of behavior in the past. This of course went badly... Very badly... *Sigh*

So I uninstall MSVS2005 Pro, MSVS2008 Pro, and MSVS 2010 Pro in their entirety ... To make sure I've no remnants of the muckings about I'd made of them earlier. This is close to 20GB of drive i/o because I also had all three copies of the MSDN Library installed (one for each). But that shouldn't be a problem... Right? Wrong.

The uninstall went fine, the reinstall however got as far as doing the service packs and updates for 2008, before one of the "Sanity Check" reboots I did started to take a bit longer than usual... During POST.

Click...

Click...

Click...

Shit.

2 outta 3 ain't bad :D Is not what I wanted to hear from the RAID controller. But I was rather expecting it after the POST's rather odd almost 3 minute preamble. However, at least with RAID 5, 2 outta 3 really isn't that bad ... Assuming I could get a replacement installed in a timely (NOW!!!) fashion.

I went to Staples, and they had nothing.

I went to Office Depot, and they had nothing.

I went to Radio Shack (hay it was there), and they had nothing.

At this point I'm weighing the odds in my head between ordering something...and 40hz's commentary in other threads about the tendency of drives to occasionally blow in sets. So...

I went to BestBuy (which I hate) and they had 1 320GB WD blue drive in the whole friggin store. I wanted black. But I was out of options...and at least it wasn't green. I hate the green ones - they're not ripe yet... - Prius' are green e.g. green means slow. God awful slow. There is nothing I hate more than slow.

I'm now waiting to see if/how well the RAID rebuild will go:

RAID5 Rebuild.jpg

Yes port 2 is the new arrival ... They used to all match.


I don't have an ending for this, so I'll just take a small bow. <-George Carlin)

Ath

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2012, 02:04:08 PM »
Good Luck :up: :o

40hz

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2012, 02:13:36 PM »
This news may make you happy.

Won't do much for your present problem however. Luck.  :Thmbsup:

Stoic Joker

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2012, 04:47:47 PM »
Thanks guys, I thought perhaps a few folks could enjoy a chuckle at my expense.

@40hz - I already read that post before creating this one. It looks interesting, and promising ... But I still got a thing for RAID ... That will take a while to pry me away from. *Shrug* hehe

Rebuild is now at 31%, which is way slower than the commercial stuff I'm used to. Now I have no excuse to not go to the company Christmas party which they're having rather late for reasons that escape me.

Day = Gone to poo.

Stoic Joker

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2012, 08:15:03 AM »
It lives. Rebuild was successful, so it's back to normal...or at least back to fixing the original screwed up.

Renegade

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2012, 08:18:41 AM »
It lives. Rebuild was successful, so it's back to normal...or at least back to fixing the original screwed up.

I feel for you... And yet again, we see why we estimate the time it will take in minutes, and budget hours...  :-\

Some days I just hate computers...


Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Stoic Joker

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2012, 08:35:18 AM »
It lives. Rebuild was successful, so it's back to normal...or at least back to fixing the original screwed up.

I feel for you... And yet again, we see why we estimate the time it will take in minutes, and budget hours...  :-\

 :Thmbsup:

Some days I just hate computers...

Yeah, about half of them. I can't help but miss the good ol' days when most of my time was spent street racing ... I'm pretty sure that was better for my health than the ambient stress level I keep now.

40hz

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2012, 08:45:23 AM »
Quote
But I still got a thing for RAID ... That will take a while to pryme away from. *Shrug* hehe

Maybe you should join a support group? :huh: :P

Stoic Joker

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2012, 09:55:23 AM »
Quote
But I still got a thing for RAID ... That will take a while to pryme away from. *Shrug* hehe

Maybe you should join a support group? :huh: :P

Aren't those just Redundant Arrays of Independent(ly damaged) People? That would make the best first step to not go.

Shades

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2012, 10:27:10 AM »
Ha! I have here a software RAID (combination of 5, 6 and 10) on Linux. Since (almost) two years now it runs on Ubuntu 10.4 Server, which made it rock-solid. When it was still on CentOS it failed whenever it pleased and/or after a power failure, which tends to happen quite often here in Paraguay. It took literally 2 to 5 days to rebuild the RAID setup, all the time hoping no new power failure would come...so I do know about ambient stress.

After the quite easy transition of this software RAID to Ubuntu and subsequent rock-solidness, you will hear a lot of praises for me for Ubuntu. Just turn on that PC and it works exactly as I expect it too. Guess Ubuntu is safer than street-racing  :P

Stoic Joker

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2012, 11:27:49 AM »
Guess Ubuntu is safer than street-racing

 :-\ ...Oh what the hell, I've made worse leaps of logic (hehe).  :Thmbsup:

But in Windows defense, the array has been rock stable for 4 or 5 years of 24/7 running. And that includes surviving the Vista -> 7 upgrade ... So I got no complaints. It's just the usual Theory vs. Practice argument. In theory the Asus Commando's on-board RAID controller should be able to rebuild the array just fine. In practice. However... You don't get to find out if the theory is indeed correct ... Until - Something goes horribly wrong - It's too late. :)

40hz

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2012, 12:09:58 PM »
My biggest complaint about RAID is its relative inflexibility. All drives the same, need to plan for largest total storage space before initializing, impaired performance until failed elements get replaced...yadda-yadda. What we really need is a flexible media pool with full data redundancy/recovery capabilities. And one that can have its space extended without hassles or the need to reinitialize/reconfigure a whole new array.

With the level of system experience and sophistication we've reached, storage management should be virtually transparent and largely automatic. We should be able to add, replace, and remove elements at will and leave our systems to handle the heavy lifting and sort out the details. And do so without the need for semi-esoteric hardware controllers to make it happen efficiently.

Just my 2ยข anyway. (I'm not alone.)

Fortunately it looks like this is finally starting to happen in the Linux and Windows world.

Yay!
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 01:36:05 PM by 40hz »

Stoic Joker

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2012, 12:24:34 PM »
True, there's always room for improvement ... And (i guess) a new storage medium that's less grenade prone is too much to ask for. :)

40hz

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2012, 02:57:16 PM »
Quote
But I still got a thing for RAID ... That will take a while to pryme away from. *Shrug* hehe

Maybe you should join a support group? :huh: :P

Aren't those just Redundant Arrays of Independent(ly damaged) People? That would make the best first step to not go.

For your information, that's independently 'deluded' - not 'damaged' Buster!  ;D

Stoic Joker

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2012, 03:34:11 PM »
Quote
But I still got a thing for RAID ... That will take a while to pryme away from. *Shrug* hehe

Maybe you should join a support group? :huh: :P

Aren't those just Redundant Arrays of Independent(ly damaged) People? That would make the best first step to not go.

For your information, that's independently 'deluded' - not 'damaged' Buster!  ;D


Aw Gee Wiz mom... Do I really have to be Politically Correct while I'm talking shit? That'll just make me sound like... ... ...Them.

Stoic Joker

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2012, 06:23:27 PM »
And now the second chapter of As the Mind Boggles - What Again?!?


So a few days ago, I get this little blinking icon with a balloon message what says RAID Failure. Nice... Just what I need while I'm trying to get started on a new project that right out of the gate is supposed to take an entire year.

Weeee... + Word that rhymes with truck (hint: it isn't pineapple).


So I pop open the Intel Matrix Storage Console, to see who the hell died now. The 2 remaining old drives 0 & 1, are just fine. The brand new WD drive from BestBuy is however reporting an "Error Condition". I say condition, because it had a status of error, it was red, and it was blinking. These are all cues that something is in a condition what needs attention. It did not however tell me a damn thing about WTF'ing error was...specifically.

So... I right clicked the offending drive, to see what my options might be. And as it happens there was an option on said menu that asked - something to the effect of - Would you like this drive to be normal. And I thought to myself, why yes I would like that drive to be(have) normal(ly) ... And so I clicked said option ... And it set the drives status to normal, and began to rebuild. 1%. 2%. 3% ... It was a rather boring show so I went to bed.

The next morning, all was fine in RAID land as all the drives were happily frolicking in unison. But would it last?? No.

I get home from work that night and we're right back to the cheerfully blinking RAID Failure icon. This time the status of the drive is failed. Which is nice in a way as now I don't have to go digging around trying to figure out what some obscure error code means. However it does strike me that the previous day's error may have been that the drive was almost, but not quite, dead yet... (yes the Monty Python version) ...But it would be in a day-or-so...


I did manage to find another drive (also a WD Caviar blue), and the array is once again rebuilding. You'd think it would get faster with all the practice its had lately ... But no. It's at 7%.

And that will conclude my patience for the evening. So if you'll excuse me ... I have to go fucking snap.  :D

Thank you.

JavaJones

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2012, 04:55:24 PM »
Remind again why RAID is so awesome? ;)

- Oshyan

40hz

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2012, 05:44:42 PM »
Remind again why RAID is so awesome? ;)

- Oshyan

Because it's been spoken of highly by Java Jones?  :P

(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)

But if it's any consolation, I also had a RAID failure on a mirror yesterday. Swapped out the dive in slot-0, initiated a rebuild and almost (caught myself in time) told it to rebuild the array from the replacement drive rather than the one holding the data.

Fortunately, I always image the drive (and do a regular backup) before I do a rebuild, so it wouldn't have been a total catastrophe if I did. But who wants to restore from either one of those if they don't absolutely have to?

It was that kind of week I guess.

So...dip me in white chocolate fondue and call me Noob! Whatcha gonna do?  ;D

Next week will be better. Onward! :Thmbsup:

cranioscopical

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2012, 05:53:52 PM »
So...dip me in white chocolate fondue and call me Noob! Whatcha gonna do?
Lickety-spit?  :P

 

40hz

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2012, 06:51:34 PM »
So...dip me in white chocolate fondue and call me Noob! Whatcha gonna do?
Lickety-spit?  :P

 

Only if someone feels the need for foreplay. ;D


Stoic Joker

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2012, 08:33:02 AM »
The way the story of playing out, it's more like aft-play.

The array survived - yet again - But it's rather baffling/annoying that a brand new drive would go poof that quickly. Guess it'll be "fun" to see what happens next.

40hz

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2012, 09:43:06 AM »
But it's rather baffling/annoying that a brand new drive would go poof that quickly.

Have a relative that holds a BEE (from MIT no less!) tell me the problem with electronic devices is they can suffer from what he called "infant mortality." He said if you can (1) power up an electrical device, (2) run it for 72 hours under full load (3) then shut it down and let it cool off overnight (3) then bring it back up successfully - it will almost always (99.9999%) run without problems for the next six to eight years. That's because most electrical engineering defects manifest themselves very early on. And about 75% are heat-related, so they won't start to show up until the device has been running several hours.

The basic rule of thumb seems to be: If it's gonna die, it's gonna die shortly after you get it - otherwise it will die no sooner than one month out-of-warranty. So look for the longest warranty you can find. (Not that it will matter. Because hardly anybody ever registers or remembers where they put their receipt.)

According to my genius cousin, it seems that the way they move product these days, there's no longer any such thing as real burn-in testing. Unless it's being sold at MIL-SPEC premium pricing, what little QC there is tests the major components of a device or assembly very briefly. If the little ogre powers up, and a signal is detected on whatever I/O ports it has, it's considered "good." After that, it's off to antistatic bagging for shipping.

The manufacturers do a risk assessment, calculate the projected failure rate from actual returns, adjust the warranty as necessary, and budget for the inevitable replacements. So it's purely a lottery and numbers game. It's sort of like the old rule for buying a truck - it's either: (a) expensive, but top quality and going to last - or (b) inexpensive to buy and cheap and easy to fix.

Most electronic manufacturers opt for 'cheap to replace under warranty' because it's more cost effective for them to eat the occasional bad egg (and write it off on their taxes) than it is to properly and extensively test each individual product. And in the case of something as complex as a microprocessor (with its meeel-yuns and meeel-yuns of transistors and countless potential electrical states) - it's not even possible to completely test them any more. Or isn't if you don't have 20 years to wait for the tests to complete.

Looks like you got one of the bad 'uns.

For customers (friends, family, and me can forget it! >:D), I'll run hard drives for about 72 hours using multipass zero-writes under DBAN. And then run the extended SATA test. Any niggle - no matter how small - and I won't drop it in a RAID. Ditto if the RAID controller throws an exception during setup. I keep a very small supply (about 3) of these 'really good'  drives in stock since the tests take forever even though they're just a click-walk away-wait task. They're kept on a shelf guarded by three ancient Egyptian curses, a flame filled moat, and the meanest drop-out junkyard dog I could find. A sign on the shelf (in 16 different languages) says: Don't even think about it.

The real problem with RAID is that whenever I've mixed drives, I've run into similar hassles about one time in six. RAID controllers are fussy. And they should be. Unfortunately, minute r/w errors, spin sync & timing issues, or electrical differences that wouldn't bother anything else give RAID controllers big stones. Which they, in turn, share with us.

My suggestion? (1) Skip RAID. (2) Do a "po' boy's mirror." Sync relevant directories periodically to an internal drive. Good excuse to take regular work breaks - and you should be taking them anyway. (3) Weekdays: sync directories overnight to an external drive. (4) Image the data drive overnight to a second external once a week on Sunday.

Luck! :Thmbsup:

P.S. There's a 9mm Glock Tactical in the top drawer behind the pretzel bag if you need it. Just don't point it at yourself or the dog. ;)



« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 10:02:34 AM by 40hz »

Stoic Joker

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2012, 12:16:10 PM »
But it's rather baffling/annoying that a brand new drive would go poof that quickly.

Have a relative that holds a BEE (from MIT no less!) tell me the problem with electronic devices is they can suffer from what he called "infant mortality." He said if you can (1) power up an electrical device, (2) run it for 72 hours under full load (3) then shut it down and let it cool off overnight (3) then bring it back up successfully - it will almost always (99.9999%) run without problems for the next six to eight years. That's because most electrical engineering defects manifest themselves very early on. And about 75% are heat-related, so they won't start to show up until the device has been running several hours.

The basic rule of thumb seems to be: If it's gonna die, it's gonna die shortly after you get it - otherwise it will die no sooner than one month out-of-warranty. So look for the longest warranty you can find. (Not that it will matter. Because hardly anybody ever registers or remembers where they put their receipt.)

Actually I already knew that part ... It's a big part of why I tend to skip the extended warranties, as if it'll make it 30 - 90 days without going poof it'll most likely last forever.

Annoying was the operative phrase above. The other was more of a philosophical thing regarding the timing of my turn-in-the-barrel.


According to my genius cousin, it seems that the way they move product these days, there's no longer any such thing as real burn-in testing. Unless it's being sold at MIL-SPEC premium pricing, what little QC there is tests the major components of a device or assembly very briefly. If the little ogre powers up, and a signal is detected on whatever I/O ports it has, it's considered "good." After that, it's off to antistatic bagging for shipping.

The manufacturers do a risk assessment, calculate the projected failure rate from actual returns, adjust the warranty as necessary, and budget for the inevitable replacements. So it's purely a lottery and numbers game. It's sort of like the old rule for buying a truck - it's either: (a) expensive, but top quality and going to last - or (b) inexpensive to buy and cheap and easy to fix.

Most electronic manufacturers opt for 'cheap to replace under warranty' because it's more cost effective for them to eat the occasional bad egg (and write it off on their taxes) than it is to properly and extensively test each individual product. And in the case of something as complex as a microprocessor (with its meeel-yuns and meeel-yuns of transistors and countless potential electrical states) - it's not even possible to completely test them any more. Or isn't if you don't have 20 years to wait for the tests to complete.

Yeah ... Warmer. It never ceases to amaze me that a bunch of asshat beaners have managed to argue away the merit of making a quality product. I would like to set these people on fire.



P.S. There's a 9mm Glock Tactical in the top drawer behind the pretzel bag if you need it. Just don't point it at yourself or the dog. ;)


Ya almost had me spooked there for a second - had to make sure the web-cam was off. While I am partial to Glocks I keep one of these (40 cal) in my office (in easy reach), sitting on top of a copy of George Carlin's Napalm & Silly Putty.
Bersa Mini-40-FireStorm.jpg

kyrathaba

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2012, 03:45:21 PM »
I keep a .357 magnum loaded with hollow-points.

357 magnum.jpg

Stoic Joker

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Re: Can U Say Crap-O-Riffic??
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2012, 03:53:53 PM »
loaded with hollow-points

(Well of course) Do they still make another kind of bullet? ;)  :D