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Author Topic: Where is Adobe Photoshop Elements 4.0??  (Read 23359 times)
Carol Haynes
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« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2006, 12:27:43 PM »

Another one which has had good reviews (particularly for Pro work) is iView MediaPro 3 (tthere is an earlier version available for non-Pro use). Not cheap but looks interesting. If you are interested in pro digital photography there is currently an off at http://www.phaseone.com/C...News/iViewpromoFeb06.aspx for a "CaptureOne Pro and iView Media Pro" (if you are feeling rich).
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moerl
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« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2006, 07:28:50 PM »

thanks for the explanation. it's very interesting to hear the comparison between acdsee and photoshop elements. when i've got a moment i'll try and see if there is a method of using acdsee that is more akin to what you are used to.

i'm just looking at this quickly but i'll look closer if you need the help.

it seems you've got 'show all files' enabled under the 'filters' setting. if you disable that i think you'll get rid of a lot of the thumbs. if that doesn't work then it looks like a weird problem.

there doesn't appear to be a way of quickly excluding specific files from the database. you can exclude entire folders but i doubt that is what you want to hear. would creating an 'exclude' tag work?

just a quick edit: with the 'exclude' tag, you'd still have to use a folder method i think, i.e. everything that's in the excluded category would have to be in a particular folder(s) - not really what you are after i admit.
I assume you've read my latest long post about the differences from this afternoon. That's the best one yet, with the most specific information about differences. I must say I'm not sure what to do at this point. Aside from the stack feature and the somewhat more logical handling of tag/category names inside the application and the on-tag-thumbnailing in APE.. I suppose ACDSee works much the same way. One other advantage of ACDSee is that it starts up WAY faster due to being meant more as an image viewer rather than mainly an image organizer, which is one of APE's main features.

I prefer another product not included in the Image Manager Shootout.  IMatch 3, available at www.photools.com, is very powerful and reasonably priced.
As I said, I WILL have to check this out. I remember it being very powerful, so I'm very curious to see what they've done with the latest version. Thanks for the reminder!

Another one which has had good reviews (particularly for Pro work) is iView MediaPro 3 (tthere is an earlier version available for non-Pro use). Not cheap but looks interesting. If you are interested in pro digital photography there is currently an off at http://www.phaseone.com/C...News/iViewpromoFeb06.aspx for a "CaptureOne Pro and iView Media Pro" (if you are feeling rich).
I checked out their website and was very impressed especially with how deeply iView seems to be involved with the photography world. They're present at pro photography conferences, work with professional photography magazines and claim to be the leading management tool especially for professionals. While it looks VERY attractive and is even far more than a "mere" digital photo management tool, but rather a media management tool because it supports just about all media formats in existence, the price of $199 is steep as hell. Who among us here would be willing to pay that?
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moerl
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« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2006, 07:46:59 PM »

Found a review for iMatch: http://www.luminous-lands...ews/software/Imatch.shtml. It's favorable smiley
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nudone
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« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2006, 03:07:05 AM »

your views on photoshop elements has been very illuminating. i'm beginning to get an urge to try it again. i tested it when doing the shootout but i may have been unfairly biased against it. the tagging method you've described certainly sounds like a good organising method. the start up speed would annoy me if it's slower than acdsee as i tend to open and close programs very often rather than leaving them running all day. or, more importantly, i may just want to check a single image for a few seconds and then move onto other things - i certainly wouldn't want to wait for photoshop elements to open up just for that.

also i guess i'm not much of a tagger - though, i do see it the way of the future.

maybe i'll give photoshop elements a quick once over but as i gave up using adobe bridge because of it's startup delay i think acdsee is probably what is most suited to me.

perhaps we just sit in different camps - there are those of us that still feel most comfortable with the logic and order of a tree hierarchy and then there of those of us that appreciate the power of the tagging system.
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Carol Haynes
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« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2006, 05:24:46 AM »

Can't help feeling the APE will take longer than Bridge to load as it has to load the whole of APE (including font tables and startup plugins).
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nudone
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« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2006, 08:29:23 AM »

Can't help feeling the APE will take longer than Bridge to load as it has to load the whole of APE (including font tables and startup plugins).

well, i've not tried it yet, but if photoshop elements is going to be slower than bridge then i won't be trying it. i may as well just confess it's not the tool for me.
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Carol Haynes
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« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2006, 08:58:32 AM »

To be fair neither Bridge not APE have photo management as their primary purpose.
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moerl
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« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2006, 07:22:36 PM »

your views on photoshop elements has been very illuminating. i'm beginning to get an urge to try it again. i tested it when doing the shootout but i may have been unfairly biased against it. the tagging method you've described certainly sounds like a good organising method. the start up speed would annoy me if it's slower than acdsee as i tend to open and close programs very often rather than leaving them running all day. or, more importantly, i may just want to check a single image for a few seconds and then move onto other things - i certainly wouldn't want to wait for photoshop elements to open up just for that.

also i guess i'm not much of a tagger - though, i do see it the way of the future.

maybe i'll give photoshop elements a quick once over but as i gave up using adobe bridge because of it's startup delay i think acdsee is probably what is most suited to me.

perhaps we just sit in different camps - there are those of us that still feel most comfortable with the logic and order of a tree hierarchy and then there of those of us that appreciate the power of the tagging system.
I think tagging/labels are brilliant and are very much in the future of all sorts of electronic organization methods. Folder structures are a think of the past for me.. and will be even more so once we all get Vista. Just the fact that Vista very much includes the philosophy behind tagging as a core way of organizing files is a good way to give an example. Of course some people still will prefer hierarchical folder structures and that's fine.. but just TRY tagging and you should see the benefits rather quickly smiley

Also, I wouldn't say photo management is not one of APE's main functions. It is. APE has a very good organizational component, so I don't see how one could say it's not one of its major components. It does come with other tools and it is sort of an all-in-one deal, but that doesn't make the organizational component any less good. I'll stick with ACDSee for a while and see how I like it though.

As for APE's start up speed.. APE is not an image viewer. It's an image management/organization/editing program. So it does take a little longer to start up. I recommend Fast Stone Viewer for a viewer or even IrfanView or XNView. Then again if you have and are happy with ACDSee, you get both in the same program. Organization AND viewing, because ACDSee does start up pretty quickly.
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Carol Haynes
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« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2006, 03:00:06 AM »

Also, I wouldn't say photo management is not one of APE's main functions. It is. APE has a very good organizational component, so I don't see how one could say it's not one of its major components. It does come with other tools and it is sort of an all-in-one deal, but that doesn't make the organizational component any less good. I'll stick with ACDSee for a while and see how I like it though.

I haven't used APE 4 (the last version I have is 2) so I can't comment on specific changes but I think it is true to say that APE is designed as photo editing software - it is after all the cutdown version of Adobe PhotoShop aiming at the consumer market. Photo organisation was very much added as an afterthought to both Photoshop and APE, in particular it was really added as a browser to find images to edit. I know that they have gone further now in APE 4 and added organisational functions (by incoroprating ideas from the old Album software) but I would still say that it isn't the primary purpose of APE whereas other software such as ACDsee/Picassa etc. really only has organisation as a purpose.
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nudone
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« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2006, 03:17:54 AM »

ah, Carol, you've just reminded me of what happened in the image manager shootout. it was adobe 'album' that was tested, not photoshop elements.

i have to agree with you on acdsee, picassa, etc. being managers/organisers first and editors second and that 'elements' and, of course, photoshop are primarily editors with organisation windows added on. not that this means that they can't be good managers (elements certainly sounds better than bridge for tagging) but it does appear to explain the quicker startup speeds from the 'proper' managers.
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moerl
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« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2006, 08:35:27 PM »

I just started tagging images with ACDSee... and find that it sucks at it. I can't even drag multiple tags onto one image at the same time? It will take me twice and thrice as long to tag everything if I can't do that.. and APE does it just fine. I think I'm back to APE for image organization. Good try, ACDSee, but at organization, you suck. Sadly Sad. I like the speed of ACDSee and just about everything else about it. But organization is the key feature that I need in an application of this type, more than anything else in it. APE just wins in that department. For now.
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nudone
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« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2006, 02:34:59 AM »

maybe the real answer is to find the graphics manager that supports the powerful tagging you've described (and it certainly does sound impressive) but with the speed of acdsee, or, something quicker.

it shouldn't really be too much to ask that there be an image manager out there that has no editing functions (not really essential for this kind of app) but supports quick load up and supper tagging/notes/metadata/etc/etc.

any ideas?
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moerl
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« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2006, 02:40:51 AM »

Picajet FX is probably a good contender. Back when I tried it once, it kept crashing on me so I got rid of it and never tried again.. but it looks very interesting. It may have been an issue with my system as well. It's particularly interesting to me because it seems its MAIN FOCUS is image organization, which is just what I'm looking for. I tagged my images using APE tonight though and I just love it. Its organizational features are truly amazing. ACDSee doesn't even come close, I'm afraid. ACDSee has many great things going for it, but image organization isn't one of them.
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« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2006, 04:10:58 AM »

How about pixvue at http://www.pixvue.com/ if you want a lightweight organizational tool? (tho the requirements say 20 mb free needed)
Seems to be just a "tagger" coping with exif,iptc and xmp - ie no edit tools built in. I like the simpleness.
The retro aspect would be a bit of a worry - having to tag your whole photo collection manually after the installation.
Having said that, I'm not using it - I'm an IMatch person.

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nudone
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« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2006, 08:08:25 AM »

I just started tagging images with ACDSee... and find that it sucks at it. I can't even drag multiple tags onto one image at the same time? It will take me twice and thrice as long to tag everything if I can't do that.. and APE does it just fine. I think I'm back to APE for image organization. Good try, ACDSee, but at organization, you suck. Sadly Sad. I like the speed of ACDSee and just about everything else about it. But organization is the key feature that I need in an application of this type, more than anything else in it. APE just wins in that department. For now.

i've woken up a bit now and just realised what you said. you're right in saying that you can't 'drag' multiple tags onto images but CAN add multiple tags if you use the 'properties' pane to do this sort of thing...

just select the image(s), then with the 'properties - database' pane in view, simply click on the tags (categories) you want to add to the files.

i'm wondering if people don't quite 'get' acdsee because they don't adjust the layout that it installs with. i really find the default views of no use and the only real way of tapping into the power is to arrange the 'organize' and 'properties' panes to be in view at all times. the default set of buttons are pretty useless also.

once you've removed the 'context sensitive toolbar' and replaced it with the 'main toolbar' with your favourite buttons and menu commands you'll get more use out of acdsee. this combined with an arrangement of the panels being in view will certainly show you the power that the program has. oh, and the workspaces you can save and call up when required take it to another level altogether. each workspace can have it's own set of menus, buttons and panels in view - just stick a 'workspace' button on one of your menus so that you can get to it at all times.

tomorrow i'm going to try and dedicate a bit of time to have a look at photoshop elememts and imatch and maybe a couple of others to see just how they compare.
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nudone
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« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2006, 08:13:07 AM »

you could also use the 'keywords' instead of the 'tags' (categories) in a similar way as i mentioned above.
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nudone
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« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2006, 12:39:44 PM »

well, i doubt this is going to be any kind of great revalation but i'm sticking with acdsee.

i've spent a bit of time with 'imatch' but it just feels like something i would have used on windows 95. i'm sure it must be good for metadata but i wouldn't recommend it for anything else.

and, photoshop elements doesn't really do it for me either. just like adobe album i would say (if you disregard the editor part). yep, the tagging kind of looks funky and nice but i don't really see how it improves greatly upon what acdsee does. if anything, it feels claustrophobic and too restrictive in how you've got to work with it. i guess that's great if you fit into it's way of thinking.

i'll admit i want 'power' and the most options available at all times and i can appreciate that that isn't going to suit everyone.

i'm just glad i got used to using acdsee when i did. it was the right choice for me.

now come, join me brothers, and let us all gather around and thank ACDSystems for creating ACDSee Pro.
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moerl
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« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2006, 12:40:55 AM »

you could also use the 'keywords' instead of the 'tags' (categories) in a similar way as i mentioned above.
Sure, except with keywords, you have to type them all in manually. Just imagine the task of trying to tag 2,000+ pictures doing it that way... it really is no alternative to real, draggable tags.

well, i doubt this is going to be any kind of great revalation but i'm sticking with acdsee.

i've spent a bit of time with 'imatch' but it just feels like something i would have used on windows 95. i'm sure it must be good for metadata but i wouldn't recommend it for anything else.
Nothing wrong with sticking with what you know and like smiley. And I'm surprised at your impression of iMatch. It must not be as great as I thought, then! Anyone got anything else to say about iMatch? I can't believe it's THAT bad. I need to give my system a break with installs/uninstalls so I'm not keen on trying it out, especially since I'm quite happy with APE's organizational component for the time being. It just works very, very well. It's got the most powerful, intuitive tagging I have found anywhere, ever.

and, photoshop elements doesn't really do it for me either. just like adobe album i would say (if you disregard the editor part). yep, the tagging kind of looks funky and nice but i don't really see how it improves greatly upon what acdsee does. if anything, it feels claustrophobic and too restrictive in how you've got to work with it. i guess that's great if you fit into it's way of thinking.
I really can't speak for APE's editor as I've never used it. I stick to the organizer part and have yet to check out the editor. From what I've heard and read, however, the editor is at least as amazing as the organizer. Anyway.. I have no doubt that ACDSee is more powerful. Especially when considering the Pro version. If you need that sort of power there is no doubt you will be better served with ACDSee than with APE. Although generally Adobe meant to target more of a beginner/intermediate crowed with APE, just about no review/impression I've read ever fails to mention that APE is very well suited for everyone from beginner to advanced/pro photographer because its tool-set is so diverse and useful. Given the greatness of the organizer alone, I have no doubt about the truth of this assertion.
Also, I must defend APE here. To say that "the tagging kind of looks funky and nice" and that you "don't really see how it improves greatly upon what acdsee does" is to do APE a great injustice. I am completely serious when I say that APE RAPES ACDSee when it comes to image organization. It's not just the funkiness and cuteness of APE's interface and the nice little details like giving even the tags themselves thumbnails.. it's the sheer power of it. Comparing APE's tagging/organization system to ACDSee's is hard. I wanted to make an analogy but couldn't come up with anything that would fit. One example: I never found a way to assign multiple created tags to one image or multiple images in ONE STEP. In APE, it's as simple and as intuitive as clicking once on the tags that you wish to use, and then simply dragging them over to either just one image or a group of images you selected before. Let go of the mouse button, and your selection is tagged. When I tried to do that in ACDSee, each time I clicked on a tag merely to select it, ACDSee would actually change the display of the Image Well to display only the images using that tag. The same thing can be achieved with APE, but it's done by clicking the checkbox to the left of each tag. That way, you can either just select tags for use by dragging OR you can use the "display only images with this tag" checkbox. That in itself beats the living shit out of ACDSee in terms of tagging/organization, but there is more. APE distinguishes between categories and tags. A tag can have no items below it while a category can. With ONE option from the right-click context menu, you can turn any tag into a category and any category into a tag, if this is needed. This is extremely handy because sometimes you will realize that a tag you made would actually be better off being a category because you can fine-tune that particular item even more by adding sub-items. Example: let's say you create a tag called New York for pictures you shot in NYC while you were there on a trip. Now you tag pictures from that trip and suddenly realize that it would be even better to sub-divice the NYC shots into categories like.. "Trip to Statue of Liberty", "Empire State Building Visit", "Central Park", etc. If you created "NYC" as a tag initially, you cannot create sub-items of it. But here's where that feature comes in. Right-click, simply select "turn tag into category" or whatever, and boom. Now NYC is a category instead of merely a tag, and you can create SUB TAGS for that category, labeling them with the example items such as I mentioned above. ACDSee has nothing like this as far as I could tell. There's more. APE has image stacks. If you have similar shots, like burst shots or simply very similarly composed images of the same subject, with similar angles and light conditions and everything, you can create a stack of that so that not all thumbnails show up when browsing your image database, but only one of them that will be representative of that image group. Only the top image will show and the rest will be shown only by edges on the side, on multiple levels, below that top image, to indicate that that's a stack and not just a single image. With context-menu right click commands, you can immediately stack and unstack groups of photos. APE also makes use of its own feature by creating automatic stacks in case you choose to use automatic red eye fixing, because it will first make a copy of the image, apply its red-eye fix to one of the copies and leave the original alone, then create a stack of the fixed and untouched image, leaving you with both the fixed version and the original that you shot. It's beautiful. It doesn't screw with your work by simply messing with the image and then asking you if you want to accept or reject the changes... it just does it and leaves you with options by saving BOTH images. That's very smart in my book. I think I could go on, but this should be enough. I repeat: APE kills ACDSee, even the Pro version, 10 times over in terms of image organization, which, to be honest, is sad and disappointing for ACDSee, especially considering that it's targeted primarily at advanced photographers and pros.

Also... claustrophobic and too restrictive in how you've got to work with it? I don't know. It does rely on tagging, and heavily so, but how that is restrictive I don't know. Claustrophobic? Please tell me how. I'd love to hear to see another view.

i'll admit i want 'power' and the most options available at all times and i can appreciate that that isn't going to suit everyone.
That's true. You probably do have more options with ACDSee. Also, I'm not just trying to say ACDSee sucks and APE rocks. I know better than to do that. We all know ACDSee is a great application. It just boils down to what you primarily use it for and what style of organization you use. If you're a tagging person, there is no question that APE kills ACDSee. If you prefer folder-based hierarchical organization, ACDSee probably is the better choice. That's not to say ACDSee doesn't have tagging features, but compared to APE's, they simply suck. Also, I have to say I greatly miss a duplicate image finder in APE, which ACDSee does have and it's great. Also, ACDSee starts up in a fraction of the time that APE takes, although after the initial startup APE is very, very fast because of prefetching, I suppose.

i'm just glad i got used to using acdsee when i did. it was the right choice for me.
Glad to hear you found your baby smiley. As for me, I'm still looking. While I think APE is great, it isn't perfect. What is? And ACDSee fails miserably by my standards of image organization, as good and great as it is/may be disregarding that particular function. It's too bad.

now come, join me brothers, and let us all gather around and thank ACDSystems for creating ACDSee Pro.
I'll leave this to those addressed :p
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nudone
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« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2006, 02:30:18 AM »

thanks, moerl, that is a fantastic reply. i'll have to read it a couple of times again to get all of your points. there is one thing i'd like to point out immediately, though, and that is the bit i said about having the 'properties - database' pane open in acdsee. you seem to have missed this area, which is unfortunate as it's the bit where you can assign multiple tags in a relatively simply manner. please don't mistake this with the 'organise' panel - that is used for selecting images after they have been tagged. i admit it's not as neat as how 'photoshop elements' does it - you can't drag multiple tags at a time but you can select the image(s) you want tagging and then quickly click the check boxes in the 'PROPERTIES - Database -organise' panel to get the job done. i think the amount of clicking involved in this task will be pretty even between acdsee and photoshop elements.

i see your point about image stacks but i don't quite understand why you can't create 'sub' tags in acdsee. saying photoshop elements makes more sense because it has categories and tags but they do different things i'm not sure about either. why not just embrace the word category and let acdsee do it. i can create sub categories and move them around between other categories, delete them, rename them and move them to the 'root' level of the tree - is this what you had a problem with - i admit moving a category back to the root was a bit tricky at first.

by 'claustrophobic' i pretty much meant 'where's the folder structures'. i know, i know, that isn't how photoshop elements works. it's just taking too much away for my liking. i need more customisation options too. like Zaine, i like to change the layout of a program if it will allow it. i like the most common buttons i use to be there in view at all times. with acdsee i can chop and change the layout to my liking and then take it further still by saving different layouts for different tasks.

i've got to dash to work now but i'll reread your last post again and try to reply again.
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nudone
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« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2006, 02:50:23 AM »

oh, just remembered, with keywords you don't have to keep typing them in manually. once you've created them you can use the 'keyword picker' box to click on the keywords you want. dare i say it - does this offer even more power for 'tagging' your images than photoshop elements? not only do we have 'categories/tags' but we also have the power of 'keywords' also.
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nudone
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« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2006, 04:49:55 AM »

i thought it might be better explained if i provided a screengrab. this isn't exactly how i lay out acdsee, i've taken the screen grab whilst i'm at work but you should get the idea...

other than that, i agree photoshop elements has a nicer tagging system - i don't like how acdsee splits the tagging process up across different panels (maybe it helps in some ways but i'd have to invent a reason). the image stacking sounds like a handy feature too.

i can imagine that the tagging power within acdsee will grow with future releases, like i said, i'm not entirely sure what the benefits are of splitting this job up between panels - it certainly is more intuitive with photoshop elements. other than these two points i don't feel i'm missing out on anything in the tagging department by using acdsee instead of photoshop elements.


* acdsee-panels-example.gif (75.13 KB, 1012x931 - viewed 394 times.)
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moerl
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« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2006, 04:56:55 PM »

I'll get back to you when I find some time to read all that you have written smiley. Just judging by what I see at a glance now, though, I can make this comment, though not having read all of what you have written, the answer may already be contained in one of your posts: if you have keywords AND tags, how do you use both of them? I mean, if you're going to use keywords for tagging but yet can't drag multiple TAGS onto images at once, doesn't that make a mess of everything? That's how I see it right now, but again, I have to read all of what you've written, which I can't do right now.
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nudone
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« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2006, 02:34:04 AM »

i haven't got a good reason as when to use 'keywords' and when to use 'categories/tags' (or both at the same time). wish i had.

the tags are obviously easier to select when viewing your files so 'keywords' only seem useful when searching. if you can think of a really good reason i'd like to hear of it too.

if you read anything of what i wrote then just read the bit about the 'PROPERTIES - DATABASE - organise' panel, as that is where you 'tag' your images NOT in the 'ORGANISE' panel.

to be honest, the way the tagging works in acdsee appears to be either suffering from a bug or whoever made it just didn't appreciate what was required. being able to only drag one 'tag' at a time makes no sense at all.
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mouser
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« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2006, 04:50:05 AM »

a side question: is moerl trying to win a contest for most words in one post without a line break?
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« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2006, 02:12:17 AM »

a side question: is moerl trying to win a contest for most words in one post without a line break?
lol.. yeah, sorry about that one. I just somehow felt like it really was all one paragraph because everything that was said in it was related. Oh well.
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