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Products designed to fail, a documentary
wraith808:
I have been studying the Koran since about 2000. One of my favourite translations is the Koran published in paperback form by The Penguin Classics (published and republished between 1956 and 1974). It is by N.J.Dawood , who, according to the biographical notes of my 1974 copy:
-IainB (November 07, 2011, 09:36 AM)
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Well, then I don't get the quote:
who are eternally obliged by Allah in the Koran to ensure that Islamism is the dominant religion and legal system, and that it is enforced (typically under threat of barbaric punishment or pain of death) in any society/culture where they find themselves
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I know that Mullahs in many cases pervert parts of the Koran to make such things necessary- but I've never seen any argument that stands up to the light of reason. In fact, most of the Muslims that I know look down on this perversion of the Koran, which is why I was a bit befuddle about your comments. In your study of the Koran have you come upon something that I haven't in my admittedly limited exposure to it?
I don't care what anyone believes so long as they do as I say
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1st - 20th century creed for xxxxxxx
for xxxxxxx insert your religious or political belief system.
-Carol Haynes (November 07, 2011, 09:55 AM)
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Not from my studies of Christianity, which are more extensive than my studies of the Koran. In fact, it is stated many times in the new testament that worldly authority and spiritual authority are two different things, and that if someone doesn't believe you or receive you, that you are to move on. Now what it is equated to in practice is quite difference. But Christianity is about actions following belief, not the other way around.
Thoughts?
Carol Haynes:
Not from my studies of Christianity, which are more extensive than my studies of the Koran. In fact, it is stated many times in the new testament that worldly authority and spiritual authority are two different things, and that if someone doesn't believe you or receive you, that you are to move on. Now what it is equated to in practice is quite difference. But Christianity is about actions following belief, not the other way around.
Thoughts?
-wraith808 (November 07, 2011, 10:06 AM)
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Not really on here - but what I will say is that all three middle eastern religions (Judaism, Islam and Christianity) are all based on the teachings of the first 5 books of the old testament (as well as later addons) and those books are not exactly tolerant of dissenters.
wraith808:
Not really on here - but what I will say is that all three middle eastern religions (Judaism, Islam and Christianity) are all based on the teachings of the first 5 books of the old testament (as well as later addons) and those books are not exactly tolerant of dissenters.
-Carol Haynes (November 07, 2011, 10:52 AM)
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The New Testament (one of the later addons) includes the Great Commandment, which sort of modifies it. Perhaps because of these same issues.
Renegade:
The vast majority of people are complete idiots on any given topic.
...
I've really appreciated your input here and the many links. (I must confess, I've not had time to follow and read them all.) It's refreshing. A logical, scientific approach where no god is sacred... Truly refreshing!
-Renegade (November 07, 2011, 07:12 AM)
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Maybe it's not that people are necessarily "idiots" - though I used to arrogantly think that. A lot of them are quite smart idiots. I reckon that it's the ignorance that does for them, combined with poor thinking skills.
Much of my adult life has been spent fighting ignorance, bigotry and stupidity - some of which I am embarrassed to admit has been mine.
-IainB (November 07, 2011, 08:50 AM)
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I probably came off harsh there. Let me clarify:
Ignorance: Not knowing
Idiocy: Not knowing & not knowing when to shut up ;D
Everyone is more ignorant than they are informed. That's pretty much trivially true. There's no shame in being ignorant.
Well, except for some common sense things, like make sure to look the right way for the train so it doesn't bash your head in from the opposite direction as you stick your noggin out over the tracks, and don't get drunk then run around on a busy freeway at night and get yourself killed. (Those are both true stories -- about the same guy -- amazingly he survived the train hit only to die drunk running around on the freeway.) i.e. If you deserve a Darwin Award, you deserve a Darwin Award. :P
You're certainly not alone in having done dumb stuff, if that's any consolation. I could point to threads here where I've illustrated my idiocy. :P ;D
IainB:
None of it is a question of real belief - it is all about power.
-Carol Haynes (November 07, 2011, 09:55 AM)
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Well, though this is off-topic (and I do try to bring t back, below), I do think it is a very interesting point.
First off, I should say that you make an interesting and potentially valid point, but you diminish it's validity by over-generalisation.
Whilst I would be tempted to agree that the statement in the above quote could perhaps be correctly applied to some religions/sects:
(a) I don't see how you could, by the negative phrase "None of them", substantiate its application to include all of them by default.
(b) I don't know that you would be able to substantiate what you say about belief as a fact, since there are many leaders of these sects who seem to genuinely believe in what they preach, and who at the same time do not appear to exercise power/influence over others, even if they have it. Thus, unless they are deliberately attempting to deceive us, then I would suggest that such people would probably for the most part consist of harmless, well-intentioned and devoutly religious folk. To such folk, the power could well be a bit like our appendix - we don't seem to know what it is useful for.
So, whilst there may certainly be some religions/sects that you could say with justification (e.g., the proof of a well-documented and strong religio-political ideology and a charter that enforces that as a rule) that they operate a model that seeks to (say) exert influence/power and extort money from members (usually tax-free as well!) - rather than just having good intentions towards humankind - there are arguably some "non-mainstream" religions/sects that generally do not fit that model at all. Examples of such could arguably include:
* Atheism. (Only joking!) ;D
* Quakerism.
* Judaism.
* Buddhism.
* Bahaiism.
* Heaven's Gate - a personal favourite of mine. :)
* Swedenborgianism.
* Spiritualism
* Sant Mat.
* Hinduism.
* Misogynism. (Oops! Sorry, that probably more properly belongs in the "mainstream" religions.) ;D- and probably numerous others.
I could attempt to bring this back on topic by suggesting that, if you consider that:
(a) The video Products designed to fail, a documentary shows what apparently seems like an inherent and rather obscene (to some people) acceptance of predatory or consumer rip-off strategies by psychopathic Corporations (QED, The Corporation video).
(b) These things (the psychopathic Corporations and their rip-off behaviours) are a direct result of the Western economies/societies having created them by legislation and accepting them by default/mute acceptance - thus making them characteristic of what has been created (i.e., they are exactly what you would expect to find, under the circumstances).
(c) That the Western economies/societies have, for the most part developed Capitalism from a Judeo-Christian base system of belief.
Then:
(i) We could blame the current sorry state of affairs on religion at its historical root - i.e., what we are experiencing may be a sort of post-secularism after-effect of this religion and associated religiousness or religious thinking.
(ii) There could be a prima facie case here to say that there is no further point in discussing the obscenities of the status quo and we should get on with planning and agitating to mandate a change to the system(s) that created it.
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