Main Area and Open Discussion > Living Room
Products designed to fail, a documentary
Renegade:
If people can be ignorant like this, then the educational system would seem to have already failed to teach them to take responsibility for thinking critically for themselves. They are arguably as likely to have read and understood what Aristotle or Kant had spoken/written of as a flea would be likely to comprehend its place in the universe. If you looked into such peoples' eyes you would probably see all the lights on, but that nobody's home.
-IainB (November 07, 2011, 05:37 AM)
--- End quote ---
I must agree. You're quite right.
The vast majority of people are complete idiots on any given topic. I know that there are topics that I'm a complete idiot on. On other topics, I'm quite competent.
The core problem that I see (as per my highlight above), is that the education system has utterly failed in producing people that are capable of thought. Real thought. Not regurgitating nonsense they gobbled down from somewhere.
Any idiot can cite some source, but it takes reflection, intelligence, and an ability to think to analyze that and produce something of value.
People spout out "critical thinking" quite often as some buzz word, but few really understand what it is, and fewer yet can do it.
One of the most important things in thinking properly is knowing when to shut up. It may seem like a cop-out at times, but it's better to simply shut ones mouth than spout of nonsense. I quite often resort to stating that I do not have an opinion on a topic simply because I am not informed enough on it to have formed an intelligent opinion.
This all is a failure of the education system. I truly believe that education can solve problems. But education in "HOW TO THINK". That's the real problem. Anyone can think, just as anyone can do almost anything. That doesn't mean that the results of somebody's efforts are useful. e.g. I could try to race in a stock car race. While I'm a good driver, I don't have the training in HOW to race properly. I'd lose. The same thing goes for thought. People try to think, but they simply can't because they've never been taught how to think.
As an expat, I've seen things in different places that are completely insane, and other things that are utterly brilliant. I've also seen things that at first glance look totally nutty, but upon further examination, they work, and they work well. Some things take years to understand. So thinking involves being able to adopt a perspective or a set of givens. Often good thought can solve the same problem in different ways. There's nothing wrong with having multiple solutions to a problem.
To put that simply:
X + Y = 3
X = 1, Y = 2
X = 2, Y = 1
2 solutions to the same problem. Neither is wrong. This is something that people generally don't get, and is a huge source of bigotry. i.e. "MY" solution is better than "YOUR" solution.
In the climate debate, my frustration is the religiosity of it. That doesn't gel well with me. "God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him." Why then raise the spectre of some twisted, lesser form of god? Karl Popper ended science long ago. Science is a method. Done.
I've really appreciated your input here and the many links. (I must confess, I've not had time to follow and read them all.) It's refreshing. A logical, scientific approach where no god is sacred... Truly refreshing!
wraith808:
Islamism:[/b] Islamist activists of today, who are eternally obliged by Allah in the Koran to ensure that Islamism is the dominant religion and legal system, and that it is enforced (typically under threat of barbaric punishment or pain of death) in any society/culture where they find themselves. I saw an estimate of 140+ million people who have had to die at the hands of this Religion of Peace, over its 1,400 year-old history.
-IainB (November 06, 2011, 09:55 PM)
--- End quote ---
Have you read the Koran? I was quite surprised when I did read parts of it, that apparently some things are left out of the rhetoric. Then I did some research, and found that most things that you hear regurgitated and used as an excuse for violence are misquotations/misinterpretations. It actually talks of respect for the followers of Christ, not persecution. And I don't think that this is unique in this situation either.
Religion isn't necessarily evil. People have evil uses for religion, IMO.
IainB:
The vast majority of people are complete idiots on any given topic.
...
I've really appreciated your input here and the many links. (I must confess, I've not had time to follow and read them all.) It's refreshing. A logical, scientific approach where no god is sacred... Truly refreshing!
-Renegade (November 07, 2011, 07:12 AM)
--- End quote ---
Maybe it's not that people are necessarily "idiots" - though I used to arrogantly think that. A lot of them are quite smart idiots. I reckon that it's the ignorance that does for them, combined with poor thinking skills.
Much of my adult life has been spent fighting ignorance, bigotry and stupidity - some of which I am embarrassed to admit has been mine.
Like you, I usually avoid "giving my opinion", preferring to arrive at a rational and thought-out conclusion that can be substantiated with a solid rationale based on good theory and practice.
My belated start to trying to sharpen up my own thinking skills was when I read Edward de Bono's book Teaching Thinking, in about 1983/4. I still refer to it - still like to keep practicing/reviewing the recommended behaviours/methods. Reading the book made me realise that I was stuck in what de Bono calls an "intellectual deadlock", where your ego will not allow you to accept that you needed to improve your thinking skills, because that could be tantamount to meaning that you hadn't been thinking perfectly well all this time...so, no change was needed for the perfect. (The ego is quite irrational.) He said that the smarter people were, the more likely they were to become stuck in this deadlock, unable to change and further develop their thinking skills. This is like letting your ego run the ship, including your thinking. It's a rut, and we tend to become stuck in it, but once we know it is there, we have some options.
When my son told me, years back, that he was doing Edward de Bono's Thinking Skills course at his boarding school, I was very pleased. I hadn't known that New Zealand schools had picked this up (it's de Bono's CoRT curriculum - Cognitive Research Trust), though I knew that it was being used by hundreds of secondary schools in the UK at the time.
I was even more impressed several years back when I read that UK schools had Critical Thinking as a GCSE "O" level (or whatever they call them now). It helped the children to develop a transferable skill that apparently enabled improvement across all their other subject studies.
The textbook (an extract is here) Critical Thinking - An Introduction (Alec Fisher) was by the professor in charge of the initial Critical Thinking course introduced to secondary schools in about 2001 (I think it was then). I read that it is now in its 2nd edition.
I ended up buying that book from Amazon, and also Fisher's further study book The Logic of Real Arguments.
Both books were very useful, and helped me to improve my critical thinking skills through practice of the exercises given. This all helped me directly in my work, where I am often faced with new/complex problems that clients expect me to help them resolve as if by magic.
By the way: I am very grateful for, and feel somewhat humbled by the recognition in your statement:
I've really appreciated your input here and the many links.
--- End quote ---
IainB:
Have you read the Koran? I was quite surprised when I did read parts of it, that apparently some things are left out of the rhetoric. Then I did some research, and found that most things that you hear regurgitated and used as an excuse for violence are misquotations/misinterpretations. It actually talks of respect for the followers of Christ, not persecution. And I don't think that this is unique in this situation either.
Religion isn't necessarily evil. People have evil uses for religion, IMO.
-wraith808 (November 07, 2011, 07:46 AM)
--- End quote ---
I have been studying the Koran since about 2000. One of my favourite translations is the Koran published in paperback form by The Penguin Classics (published and republished between 1956 and 1974). It is by N.J.Dawood , who, according to the biographical notes of my 1974 copy:
* translated "Tales from the Thousand and One Nights" and "Aladdin and Other Tales", for the Penguin Classics.
* was born in Baghdad.
* came to England as an Iraq State Scholar in 1945.
* graduated from London University.
* was a director of Contemporary Translation Ltd. and managing director The Arabic Advertising and Publishing Company Ltd., London.
* edited and abridged "The Muqaddimah of Ibn Khaldun".
* translated numerous technical English works into Arabic.
* had written and spoken radio and film commentaries.
* contributed to specialised English-Arabic dictionaries.
If English is your language of preference, then I would suggest NJD's English translation because it is one by a Muslim and an academic who was equally at home with English and Arabic - possibly unlike other translators that you might come across - e.g., there are 6 versions in the Bahai Interfaith Explorer collection - which is a program with a database which includes the religious texts from many of the major sects on the planet. I installed it on my laptop a couple of years back and it gets updated with refreshed editions from time to time.
It's not easy to misquote the Koran once you have studied and understood it. It is very specific about things. Of course, you would not necessarily expect a child of 6, who has learned to recite parts of the Koran, to be able to fully understand what she is reciting, but she will learn the specific parts by rote.
The reader needs to bear in mind that the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) had a vision where the angel Gabriel read to him from words which had been inscribed on stone by Allah. Mohammed (pbuh) then recited what Gabriel had said to him, and it was later written down verbatim by the scribes who listened to him. ("Koran" means "Recital".)
When a Muslim holds the Koran up in his right hand, he knows that he holds the absolute and infallible word of Allah, and that there is no picking and choosing as to what to believe, how to think about things, how to implement Allah's directives. To become a Muslim, you have to submit absolutely to Allah ("Islam" means "Submit"). This includes submitting any desire for freedoms, other than that freedom which Allah allows you. (This explains those placards you may have seen, held up by protesting Muslims, that say something like - for example - "Freedom go to Hell".)
No other religion has this - the absolute and infallible word of Allah. All other religious texts are invented and written by human authors. That includes the Old Testament of the Bible, for example, and the New Testament (the latter being written mainly by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John.
You submit to Allah to become a Muslim ("Islam" means "Submit"). That is why the Koran is treated with such reverence by Islamists.
Carol Haynes:
I don't care what anyone believes so long as they do as I say
--- End quote ---
1st - 20th century creed for xxxxxxx
for xxxxxxx insert your religious or political belief system.
None of it is a question of real belief - it is all about power.
My personal belief:
I don't care what anyone believes so long as they don't expect me to believe it and leave me to live own life in peace
--- End quote ---
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version