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Author Topic: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(  (Read 9875 times)
Renegade
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« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2011, 07:09:07 AM »

Android has an app for DNS(dragon naturally speaking) so it is taking off already. There is also an app for google search with voice on android. So slowly but surely it is taking up. My point is that - few years back in my early twenties i used to do some searches via typing keyword, i can comfortably do the same in future ( for ahm) at home for obvious reasons not using speech recognition. But the point is, i can't imagine future generation holding the same conservative thoughts like me. Unless i do some fundamental brainwashing, there is no way they're going to pick those conservative thoughts and feel awkward for the same. (Hmm, current teen generation liking lady gaga and Justin bieber says it all about our doomsday).They may do weird actions while using the paper displays or holograms in future or shout some swear words to program their tablets and mobiles to execute some of their tasks.

Hmmm... You got me thinking... Would it be better if your computer could read lips? No noise.

I've actually got 4 mics on my desk here at home... So, SR/STT would really make my life somewhat easier for some things.

But with 2 webcams as well, reading lips would be, well, nah. Just easier for me to speak. But I can see a use for it. Like of like "hands free gestures".
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« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2011, 08:10:37 AM »

I just saw a video (1 hour and 49 minutes of it!) from the latest keynotes convention of Microsoft. I have to be honest that it was not that much of a drag. But what caught my interest was Windows 8 Server, that one will take virtualization to a whole new and much improved level.

Also, the possibilities shown with Visual Studio 2010 in that video is to be very interesting for the developers here at DC (amongst others it rendered 3D!).
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« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2011, 09:01:11 AM »

Android has an app for DNS(dragon naturally speaking) so it is taking off already. There is also an app for google search with voice on android. So slowly but surely it is taking up. My point is that - few years back in my early twenties i used to do some searches via typing keyword, i can comfortably do the same in future ( for ahm) at home for obvious reasons not using speech recognition. But the point is, i can't imagine future generation holding the same conservative thoughts like me. Unless i do some fundamental brainwashing, there is no way they're going to pick those conservative thoughts and feel awkward for the same. (Hmm, current teen generation liking lady gaga and Justin bieber says it all about our doomsday).They may do weird actions while using the paper displays or holograms in future or shout some swear words to program their tablets and mobiles to execute some of their tasks.
Hmmm... You got me thinking... Would it be better if your computer could read lips? No noise. 've actually got 4 mics on my desk here at home... So, SR/STT would really make my life somewhat easier for some things. But with 2 webcams as well, reading lips would be, well, nah. Just easier for me to speak. But I can see a use for it. Like of like "hands free gestures".
I think "leap reading" and "eye ball tracking" is definitely a one good research area as it'll help disabled people to use technology for communication and getting things done. In fact we can make them more independent on simple tasks like ATM withdrawals etc. So these two areas are def worth to look at. As for "speech", blind people are using it for now to effectively use computers. So this technology is definitely has it's pros that surpasses minor cons.
 
Now what's in it for developers ? I mean we're talking about how upcoming technology on this platform is going to help non-developers. But as developer i think i would like to see if some of our tasks are minimized in VS or any other MS dependent technology.
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Renegade
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« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2011, 09:19:52 AM »

So this technology is definitely has it's pros that surpasses minor cons.

+1 there!

Now what's in it for developers ? I mean we're talking about how upcoming technology on this platform is going to help non-developers. But as developer i think i would like to see if some of our tasks are minimized in VS or any other MS dependent technology.

If MS takes cues from any of the other vendors, they'll have SR/STT built into Metro with APIs for them. (And in .NET and not just C/C++ only APIs.)

I'm crossing my fingers... I just hope that we don't end up with the sucky closed APIs that some mobile OS vendors have... Sad To some degree it's ok as it affords protection for users, but where it doesn't protect the user, I don't want shielded APIs.
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« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2011, 05:00:47 PM »

Android has an app for DNS(dragon naturally speaking) so it is taking off already.

Haven't used Dragon, but the stock voice recognition on Android phones is useless. English is my second language, and my accent is not exactly native (UK or US), but I can get close when I try. Android doesn't understand a single word I say in English, and believe me, I don't have any speech impediments. When I switch to Polish (my native tongue), it understands every third word or so. My wife has a better diction than me, and when she speaks in Polish to the phone, it can't recognize a single word.

Then there are passwords. Are we going to be speaking them aloud too? Good going!

Then there are professions and places where silence (or near silence) is pretty much a requirement for doing any useful work. Any profession and any workplace where thinking is an important component of what you do. (Stockbrokers need not apply!)

I used to have an elderly neighbor, living in an apartment below mine, who would complain every so often because my keyboard clicking was keeping him awake (I was sitting on my ass, typing in complete silence). Forget about voice!

Forget about neighbors, too. It's midnight here,  my wife's asleep, while I'll be sitting here a few more hours. She's in the next room, but if I spoke commands, I'd wake her. And you don't want to be near my wife when her sleep is disturbed smiley


« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 05:16:35 PM by tranglos » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2011, 05:04:15 PM »

You do realize the whole point of this demo was to showcase the tablet UI features, right?

I hope it is, because it is entirely unusable, seeing as you need the entire desktop uncovered to do anything. You'd have to minimize all apps before opening another one.
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« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2011, 05:15:35 PM »

Still people assume that metro is forced on them. Do remember that windows classic interface (98ish) is still possible in win 7. Why do you think they'll dump their user friendliness and lose the market ?

I guess they won't, but the situation is not similar at all to the residual "classic Start menu"  in XP and later. There, the new interfaces are supposed to be better, are preferred and default. You are expected to use them and they are perfectly usable. Choosing the "classic" interfaces is  merely a matter of preference.

With Metro, it is not a matter of preference, because Metro is entirely unusable on a desktop system. Whenever an app is open on the desktop (i.e., always), you have no access to the Metro controls. You cannot choose it, you will never choose it on a desktop machine, because you won't be able to work that way. Unless you accept that you have to minimize everything before you can open or access anything else.

On a desktop system, that's way beyond ridiculous, way beyond insane. Why would anyone make it part of a desktop OS? It would only make sense if Win 8 was designed ONLY for mobile devices.
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« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2011, 01:04:07 AM »

In the 3 hours I had it installed, I noticed that apps that were not 'in focus' were marked as suspended in task manager.
Well, I like everything running, not to be suspended when it is in the background.

I also hated (too weak a word actually) the interface.

Hope it gets better as time goes on.
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Renegade
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« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2011, 01:12:51 AM »

In the 3 hours I had it installed, I noticed that apps that were not 'in focus' were marked as suspended in task manager.
Well, I like everything running, not to be suspended when it is in the background.

This is a form factor issue for the platform.

All mobile platforms that I've seen use an OnForeground and an OnBackground event for the application.

The purpose for the OnBackground is for you to save any settings and dispose of any resource intensive resources or processes.

The OnForeground event is for you to resume your application.

These are needed due to the limited CPU, memory, and battery life of mobile devices.

As far as the desktop is concerned with Metro, my guess is that people would be sticking to convention there for the time being, and later on when the platform is released, developers will then check to see where the app is running and deal with things more comprehensively.

These are still very early stages for the platform, so there will be issues like that.
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« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2011, 11:10:44 AM »

Purely FWIW, the hype & release of the win8 dev prev. is a marketing push to try & avoid another hugely expensive game of Catch Up like MS is going through with Bing. They want into the cell & tablet market. It's not like it's going to cannibalize their Windows or Ofc sales, and with Microsoft's history of just abandoning projects & perceptions that they may not be the best company for devs to work with, they need a big marketing push.

Metro is a cell phone/tablet interface -- perhaps the main advantage of having it available on PCs/laptops is as part of that marketing push... publish in their store & you get access not just to cell & tablet owners, but every machine running win8. It *may* also help less PC literate folks use Windows, but there IMHO the jury's still out. It *may* help corp IT when/where they need/use touch screens like on the factory floor. It's not for everyday, normal PC use -- for that you have the normal Windows interface...

Long story short, fingers are fat, sometimes clumsy things that are best suited to holding & using tools. Ignoring biometrics for a moment, you don't sign your name or write notes dipping your fingertip in ink. Fingers/thumbs work on a cell/tablet because 1) you're not doing something terribly precise, & 2) carrying/using a stylus can be a PITA. And then there's this: desktop monitors are not normally placed in your face, but sit towards the back of your desk, so among other things you can see the entire screen at a glance. Would you rather stretch your arm out or keep it comfortably at your side? IMHO that's why touch just doesn't work on/for most desktop users. And if you don't use touch, you don't need huge buttons/icons. That said & to be fair, Metro might be useful for moving some of the stuff you do on-line to your desktop, if/when/where that makes sense -- you can write a Metro app using JavaScript for example.

SO what else does the win7 SE have to offer? Any tech improvements they can manage to get ready by the time it's RTM. Better support for VMs, a more capable Windows' Explorer, the capability to run on less powerful hardware, *Maybe* Windows to Go [my guess is that it might be restricted to corp, and bring with it heavier DRM], along with other assorted bells & whistles like being able to open ISOs. Nothing more than a guess, I *think* that MS might be focusing more on special cases or situations they can sell to IT dept.s that have already moved to win7 -- convincing them to move the complete enterprise might be too much of a hard sell [Gartner seems to think so anyway].

PCs started as a hobbyist device [toy?], slowly moved into business use, & today are a large part of many, many everyday lives. PCs have also [& always] been very much Jacks of all Trades -- that's where things are changing nowadays... if all you want to do is watch movies &/or browse the web you simply don't want or need all those other capabilities, & certainly don't want to pay for them [in money, effort, or inconvenience]. Specialized PCs as appliances aren't just here, now, but they're being bought far more often than desktops. Cell phones, tablets, cable boxes, DVRs, TVs, eBook readers, hand-held players, cars, anything that can benefit from more intelligence is either becoming a PC or contains one. The general use PC isn't dead or dying -- it is being outnumbered. And if you can have a piece of every one of those sales, that's HUGE -- it may turn out that no one company can manage that, but it won't stop Microsoft, Google, Apple etc. from trying.
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« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2011, 07:38:08 PM »

Input is another big thing. Tapping a screen is NOT a replacement for a tactile keyboard. You simply CANNOT ever become as fast on a virtual keyboard as you can on a physical keyboard. e.g. How can you find F or J without the ridges or tactile sensation? A minor shift is easily corrected through touch on a normal keyboard. You cannot do that on a flat surface unless you look or start making errors as you type.

Fact is, tablet and phone input methods are still extremely primitive with almost no thought at all put into them. "Let's touch the screen" is just an overly simplictic approach to input. Contrast that with the keyboard and you have a very stark difference where the keyboard is logically thought out and incredibly well put together with actual thought put into human physiology and ergonomics.
Try Swype and similar keyboard input methods on an Android. On a phone, I am almost as fast as I am with a keyboard. Okay, so I'm not the fastest keyboarder on the planet, but I suspect that I'm about average.

Android has an app for DNS(dragon naturally speaking) so it is taking off already.
The Dragon app reflects real world usage. It supports voice, keyboard (with Swype or similar) and handwriting recognition. (I haven't tried it yet, so I'm relying on the app description page). Most of us use our computer in multiple types of environments. Sometimes voice is appropriate, sometimes a keyboard and don't we all wish we could just have the computer recognize our scrawl in real time. I don't think any of these methods will disappear.

Haven't used Dragon, but the stock voice recognition on Android phones is useless. English is my second language, and my accent is not exactly native (UK or US), but I can get close when I try. Android doesn't understand a single word I say in English, and believe me, I don't have any speech impediments. When I switch to Polish (my native tongue), it understands every third word or so. My wife has a better diction than me, and when she speaks in Polish to the phone, it can't recognize a single word.
My experience with the stock voice recognition is totally different. Maybe it's equipment differences? I have a Galaxy S. In the beginning it recognized about 75% of my speech, but it keeps getting better. Now that I've given it permission to recognize me, I usually get better than 90%. It works well for searches and short notes. One of my favorite apps is Vocanote that sends both the audio file and transcription via email. It's great for short notes on the fly so corrections can be made when convenient.

Steve
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 11:08:19 AM by steveorg; Reason: Fixed typo » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2011, 08:20:59 PM »

@steveorg - I tried something like Swype as Swype wasn't available (only OEM), but it didn't help me much. Yeah... A tad faster, but still mind-numbingly painful to type on a keyboard designed for the fingers of 8-year old girls. I have big thumbs and they cover everything so I can't see what I'm trying to hit.

I wish that phones would allow the use of a stylus. That would solve my problem better.
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« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2011, 09:13:59 PM »

I wish that phones would allow the use of a stylus. That would solve my problem better.

OTOH, if I had to whip out a stylus to answer the phone, I'd throw it against the nearest wall. I'm close enough to doing that as it is smiley

This is really a separate topic, but in the three months I've had my first smartphone I've learned to truly hate it. (HTC Sensation, BAD choice, don't buy it, ask me why if interested). Some of the issues are specific to this model, but in general, the whole input concept sucks for me.

One, Renegade's problem applies to all adult human fingers, they're all too fat (unless maybe a famished 8-year old). Two, I need how many hands to operate a phone? It's hard enough to answer a call with one hand, and downright impossible to make a call or do anything else. You'd have to use your thumb for touching, the fattest and least nimble finger of all. Third, if I'm reading something and want to flick a speck of dust off the screen, I have to lock the screen first (thus make it go blank), do the thing, then unlock it. Otherwise it's going to scroll or flip the page or activate something. Four, and this is partly due to my HTC's build, I can't put it face up on the table without accidentally triggering some function or other, usually the search softkey, with the inside of my palm. I've had to learn to lock the screen before I put down the phone.

This is not smart, and this is not a good UI. I don't even want to imagine what it's going to be like using it outdoor in winter's freezing temperatures.

The only good thing about it is that the ubiquitous net connection keeps me entertained during long waits at train stations, airports etc. Until the battery runs out, which is oh, about 2 hours.

<end rant (and I didn't even mention the bugs! The thing has more bugs than a pet cemetery!)>

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Renegade
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« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2011, 09:21:34 PM »

I wish that phones would allow the use of a stylus. That would solve my problem better.

OTOH, if I had to whip out a stylus to answer the phone, I'd throw it against the nearest wall. I'm close enough to doing that as it is smiley

This is really a separate topic, but in the three months I've had my first smartphone I've learned to truly hate it. (HTC Sensation, BAD choice, don't buy it, ask me why if interested). Some of the issues are specific to this model, but in general, the whole input concept sucks for me.

I've had several PDAs that used a stylus, and I could still use my fingers with them. Having both options would be nice... You could do it 15 years ago... Seems like we're regressing there.

I've got an HTC Desire HD, and it's ok. Mind you, I think that in a lot of things, I'm not as picky as a lot of people here. I tend to expect things to be pretty shitty to start with, so if anything actually works sort of ok, I'm relatively happy. tongue
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« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2011, 09:31:37 PM »

I've had several PDAs that used a stylus, and I could still use my fingers with them. Having both options would be nice... You could do it 15 years ago... Seems like we're regressing there.

Resistive screens inherently support both stylus and finger. These days, the much more common capacitive screens need a special stylus, but those are readily available
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Renegade
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« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2011, 10:20:38 PM »

I've had several PDAs that used a stylus, and I could still use my fingers with them. Having both options would be nice... You could do it 15 years ago... Seems like we're regressing there.

Resistive screens inherently support both stylus and finger. These days, the much more common capacitive screens need a special stylus, but those are readily available

Unfortunately they don't really fit very well into the non-existent stylus port...

However...

http://pocketnow.com/twea...-a-free-capacitive-stylus

http://www.labnol.org/gad...-for-touch-screens/13614/

There are a few ways to create one for free.

Still, I'd miss having that convenient little port to store the stylus.

I should stop being so darn lazy and either buy or make one. Actually, making one would be better; I'd be able to see if the inconvenience of having no storage for it makes it impractical.
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« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2011, 06:54:47 AM »

I've had several PDAs that used a stylus, and I could still use my fingers with them. Having both options would be nice... You could do it 15 years ago... Seems like we're regressing there.

I used to have a Palm, one of those early jobs with monochrome screens. Wasn't too much you could do with it, but the stylus was great. You had to learn their shorthand script for entering characters, but that was fun and with a more advanced touch-screen tech it could well be faster than pecking at those tiny on-screen keys of today. Although the script they designed worked only for Latin A-Z characters, so no accents or diacritics, and no localized software, either.

Unfortunately I didn't have much use for it other than reminders and quick notes away from home.  But my subjective satisfaction was definitely better than my current HTC's "flagship product" gives me.

(Yeah, I *am* picky. I held off buying a smartphone for two years until I found one that looked good, on paper at least. I fully expected short battery life etc., but who knew call quality was going to be worse than with any non-smart Nokia I'd owned before, or that the thing would be dropping GSM connection in the middle of a busy city where regular phones get four bars and grow a fifth if they didn't originally have it! Not the reviewers, that's for sure :-)


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Renegade
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« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2011, 07:53:14 AM »

The Palm writing recognition was brilliant. It was extremely fast. Much faster than typing on a virtual keyboard. I WISH that some of the mobile OS vendors would bring it back.
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« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2011, 11:00:40 AM »

I have used my CR-48 Chromebook as my only computer for many months now.  I don't miss my PC one bit.  My next device will be a Tablet because I can do 95% of everything that matters to me.

The only reason I keep a PC around is for high end Graphics software such as Photoshop or Movie Editing software.  That's about it.  Once tablets get powerful enough to run these type of programs, I won't need a PC at all.

Most of what I do is consumption.  When I feel like creating a blog post, I can always dock it to a keyboard.   cheesy
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« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2011, 11:06:04 AM »

@steveorg - I tried something like Swype as Swype wasn't available (only OEM), but it didn't help me much. Yeah... A tad faster, but still mind-numbingly painful to type on a keyboard designed for the fingers of 8-year old girls. I have big thumbs and they cover everything so I can't see what I'm trying to hit.

I wish that phones would allow the use of a stylus. That would solve my problem better.
 
Technologies like Swype are meant to be used with the forefinger or a stylus. On a tablet form factor or even in landscape on many phones, finger size shouldn't be an issue.

I've had several PDAs that used a stylus, and I could still use my fingers with them. Having both options would be nice... You could do it 15 years ago... Seems like we're regressing there.

Resistive screens inherently support both stylus and finger. These days, the much more common capacitive screens need a special stylus, but those are readily available

Unfortunately they don't really fit very well into the non-existent stylus port...
Many commercial styluses, such as this one at Amazon for $10, clip into the audio port. Not as good as a dedicated slot, but still a step in the right direction. This stylus at Amazon for $10 seems to work a little better but does not have the audio port clip, though it can accomodate a lanyard.

The Palm writing recognition was brilliant. It was extremely fast. Much faster than typing on a virtual keyboard. I WISH that some of the mobile OS vendors would bring it back.
It's called Graffiti and is available on Androids. I love Graffiti, but Swype is much faster.
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« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2011, 12:24:07 PM »

I have used my CR-48 Chromebook as my only computer for many months now.  I don't miss my PC one bit.  My next device will be a Tablet because I can do 95% of everything that matters to me.... <> Most of what I do is consumption.  When I feel like creating a blog post, I can always dock it to a keyboard.

I'm just about there, Proximo. I want either a Chromebook or tablet next year (probably a Sept. '12) simply because my current machine is old and most of what I do is content consumption, not creation. I'll keep this one for that. Frankly, I'd like to have a tablet I could take to breakfast, since there's almost no newspapers sold in print form in my town anymore. And on the lazy side, it'd be nice to have one when watching something on TV, for either stats, reviews, or to see their YouTube vids. I wouldn't do Windows, but it's great that Win8 is fully ready for the mobile/tablet side.
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« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2011, 05:35:33 PM »

The Palm writing recognition was brilliant. It was extremely fast. Much faster than typing on a virtual keyboard. I WISH that some of the mobile OS vendors would bring it back.

Just get graffiti from the market place and install it on your desire HD

Oops...sorry, should have read thread to the end before posting.

I will add though, that at least some diacriticals are possible with graffiti, just don't ask me how. Ive entered some, by accident, but can't remember exactly what I did to cause them to happen.
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« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2011, 08:01:19 PM »

The Palm writing recognition was brilliant. It was extremely fast. Much faster than typing on a virtual keyboard. I WISH that some of the mobile OS vendors would bring it back.
It's called Graffiti and is available on Androids. I love Graffiti, but Swype is much faster.

Just downloaded it. I'll also see if I can download that Swype clone (unless Swype is now available) and see which I can manage easier. I rather doubt that I'll be able to use Swype though. My thumbs cover half or a third of the keyboard as it is, so I can't see what I'm trying to hit.
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« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2011, 10:52:51 AM »

Just downloaded it. I'll also see if I can download that Swype clone (unless Swype is now available) and see which I can manage easier. I rather doubt that I'll be able to use Swype though. My thumbs cover half or a third of the keyboard as it is, so I can't see what I'm trying to hit.
Use one forefinger with Swype. No thumbs allowed!  Cool

Steve
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« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2011, 11:18:03 AM »

Just downloaded it. I'll also see if I can download that Swype clone (unless Swype is now available) and see which I can manage easier. I rather doubt that I'll be able to use Swype though. My thumbs cover half or a third of the keyboard as it is, so I can't see what I'm trying to hit.
Use one forefinger with Swype. No thumbs allowed!  Cool

Steve

That's the thing... I want to do it with 1 hand... Can't hold it and use a forefinger with 1 hand... Sad
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