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Last post Author Topic: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(  (Read 15681 times)

MrCrispy

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Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« on: September 21, 2011, 07:55:30 PM »
After months of anticipation and excitement, the W8 reveal was such as huge letdown. I was hoping for something fresh and exciting, similar to the Windows 7 M3 build. Instead, what we got is this -

- an OS designed for tablets and phones. 'Touch-first' really means 'screw you mouse and keyboard users'
- Nothing new for desktop users except inconvenience of being dropped into Metro. Ok, Explorer ribbon, file copies, faster startup, and new task manager.
- As a developer, WinRT is a failure - its only good for Metro apps, any desktop app will still need the old frameworks like .NEt, WPF, Win32

In other words, for 99.9% of the population running a desktop OS, there's absolutely nothing new and no reason to upgrade. Nothing new in the OS, nothing new for developers.
On the other hand, if you wanted to write the next version of your iPad app for Windows tablets (which won't be out for at least 6 months) you're in luck.

Josh

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2011, 08:29:47 PM »
You do realize the whole point of this demo was to showcase the tablet UI features, right?

mahesh2k

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2011, 09:04:21 PM »
I don't know why people are thinking as if MS wants to shoot on their own feet.

1. This is developer preview, not consumer release RC. It is meant for developers to use Metro UI without any simulator in VS for developing apps for tablets.
2. Developer Preview focused only on Metro UI, base code is still Win 7 and nothing added to it. So this will give them idea about backwards compatibility and driver support. Again, this has nothing to do with consumers liking this preview.
3. Tiles are hard to navigate in case of laptops, desktops and netbooks. Any 5 year old can see the difference and that is why they're not making Metro Tablet UI default for desktop consumer release. I guess this news was released one month ago in ars.technica. Still people assume that metro is forced on them. Do remember that windows classic interface (98ish) is still possible in win 7. Why do you think they'll dump their user friendliness and lose the market ?
4. Cloud login and apps is something to worry about and i'm with most of the people here. I don't want to go - cloud for plenty of reasons like - slow connection, data loss, security, data ownership, data mining etc etc.
5. Win 7 apps store is for mobile/tablet user.
echo("Win 7 apps store is for mobile/tablet user")
So lets not worry about apps restriction for desktop users. Do remember the fact that large percentage of windows desktops have applications which are meant for offline usage and this will go on unless people shift their mindset in trusting cloud technology.

It's too early to make any comment on Win 8 unless they release RC 3 or RC 4 aka Final Build as per tradition. Win 7 picked up popularity after RC3 AFAIK. I'm waiting for these instead of tablet preview, media center preview or dev preview.

craigvn

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2011, 10:00:10 PM »
Not sure where you've been for the last 10 years, but for most people the desktop is not their primary computer. That ship has sailed. Their phone, tablet or other device is what is increasingly what they turn on first. MS currently has almost no share of that market, but are gunning for it. The desktop PC is that boring thing they create spreadsheets on at work and couldn't care less if it disappeared tomorrow.

mahesh2k

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2011, 10:45:14 PM »
Quote
Not sure where you've been for the last 10 years, but for most people the desktop is not their primary computer.
You mean those who have no work on computer other than checking mails, listening to music and spending time on social network ?

This huge shift is happening for them last 2 years and not last 10 years. That's exaggeration at it's best.

As for desktop computing, it's not just about spreadsheets. Educational and research usage of computer will always remain on desktop. Same goes for developers and many other domains in computing. It's funny to imagine developer typing 1k lines of code on tablet and then compiling on ARM Processor for next 5-6 hours(heard of mainframe programs?). Same goes for music, animation and other development areas where desktops for speed and dev. tools are irreplaceable.

nosh

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2011, 11:01:06 PM »
Quote
It's funny to imagine developer typing 1k lines of code on tablet and then compiling on ARM Processor for next 5-6 hours

 ;D  :up:

MrCrispy

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2011, 12:17:09 AM »
Not sure where you've been for the last 10 years, but for most people the desktop is not their primary computer. That ship has sailed. Their phone, tablet or other device is what is increasingly what they turn on first. MS currently has almost no share of that market, but are gunning for it. The desktop PC is that boring thing they create spreadsheets on at work and couldn't care less if it disappeared tomorrow.

Phones and tablets are a tiny minority. The shift has been from desktops to laptops, and those don't have touchscreens. Even if Metro is not enabled for desktop devices, it still doesn't mean we'll get any improvements for desktop apps over Windows 7. Sinofsky has made it clear that Win8 is 'touch-first' experience. Based on previous releases, its very unlikely we'll see major changes from this point onwards. And WinRT has a lot of nice features, and its useless for desktop apps. Its quite clear where the focus is, and its not on non-touch devices.

mitzevo

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2011, 03:52:24 AM »
Not sure where you've been for the last 10 years, but for most people the desktop is not their primary computer. That ship has sailed. Their phone, tablet or other device is what is increasingly what they turn on first. MS currently has almost no share of that market, but are gunning for it. The desktop PC is that boring thing they create spreadsheets on at work and couldn't care less if it disappeared tomorrow.

" The desktop PC is that boring thing they create spreadsheets on at work and couldn't care less if it disappeared tomorrow."

Clearly you miss typed "They", when you should have used "I", which would then justify your/their opinion and understanding of the subject.

Sure, tablets and smart phones maybe the future, but hell no, desktops haven't sailed away and won't be for a very loooooong time.
The clock is running. Make the most of today. Time waits for no man. Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why it is called the present.

Renegade

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2011, 05:56:08 AM »
Sure, tablets and smart phones maybe the future, but hell no, desktops haven't sailed away and won't be for a very loooooong time.

+1

Any time I hear predictions about the demise of the desktop, I just want to strangle someone. That prediction is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of human-machine interaction where ONLY the most basic consumption is taken into account.

Form factor is the big thing. Phones, tablets and laptops simply do not offer the massive display possibilities of a full monitor, or array of monitors. Those monitors are not "portable" (yet).

Input is another big thing. Tapping a screen is NOT a replacement for a tactile keyboard. You simply CANNOT ever become as fast on a virtual keyboard as you can on a physical keyboard. e.g. How can you find F or J without the ridges or tactile sensation? A minor shift is easily corrected through touch on a normal keyboard. You cannot do that on a flat surface unless you look or start making errors as you type.

Fact is, tablet and phone input methods are still extremely primitive with almost no thought at all put into them. "Let's touch the screen" is just an overly simplictic approach to input. Contrast that with the keyboard and you have a very stark difference where the keyboard is logically thought out and incredibly well put together with actual thought put into human physiology and ergonomics.

Ok. Someone's going to call me on that... Here's why...

Get a tablet. Or get a book about the size of a tablet and pretend that it's a tablet. Hold it. Don't turn it on, or if you do, read a book on it. Sit down with it or walk around with it.

Next, notice where your hands are.

Case closed.

The Apple UI dogma is to have the "Back" button at the top left of the screen. If you didn't notice, when you were reading this was the furthest away point for you to be able to actually press it.

i.e. The optimal user input portion of a tablet is the lower-left and lower-right corner quarter-circles of the tablet with an effective radius slightly less than that of the length of your thumb. That's where your easiest input is.

Examine where the ACTUAL input interfaces are in most applications... Not there, that's for sure.

Some applications make sense to not have the inputs there, though it's a case-by-case thing.

Things will change when STT (speech recognition) becomes viable/real. Eye tracking will also change how devices work. However, we are a very far way away from that.

However, current speech recognition engine revenue models make it impractical for most software. For some really really good information on speech recognition, listen to our interview with Adam Smith on The Doc Report. I don't mean that to be self-promotional -- I mean that quite literally. We talk at length about speech recognition.

Anyways, I think I'm wandering off-topic here somewhat.

I've not tried the new Windows developer release, so I can't really comment on it other than to say... it's a developer preview, as is already noted above.
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xtabber

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2011, 10:12:19 PM »
Things will change when STT (speech recognition) becomes viable/real.

Not likely. The problem with speech recognition is not that it doesn't work well enough, but that it is not appropriate as an input method in the vast majority of situations where a user needs to interact with a computer.

Think about a room full of people talking on their cell phones and then think about a room full of people talking to their computers.





mahesh2k

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2011, 10:43:21 PM »
Yeah. Speech recognition is one hell of privacy breaker. Difference between "typing pron keyword" and shouting "pron", says it all.  ;D

Renegade

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2011, 11:49:43 PM »
Things will change when STT (speech recognition) becomes viable/real.

Not likely. The problem with speech recognition is not that it doesn't work well enough, but that it is not appropriate as an input method in the vast majority of situations where a user needs to interact with a computer.

Think about a room full of people talking on their cell phones and then think about a room full of people talking to their computers.



I guarantee that it will change the game. The "noisy room" or "voice in a room" problem was solved a few years ago, so now the only thing there is patent licensing, which as I alluded to above or before, is a large part of the problem. I don't have a reference though. I read about it a while back in one of the audio/DSP newsletters I subscribe to or something like that. However, for a similar technology, check out Melodyne as it has note and instrument separation.

I'll have to disagree about speech recognition at the moment: speech recognition doesn't work well enough right now, which is again part of the problem. Listen to what Adam Smith has to say on the topic in the interview I linked to above.


Yeah. Speech recognition is one hell of privacy breaker. Difference between "typing pron keyword" and shouting "pron", says it all.  ;D

Hahhahaha~! ;D

Well, if you want to surf pron in public... I suppose.

But how much quicker would it be to consume information on your phone if you could go from inside of one application to another, e.g. "quit surf the register site search apple patent lawsuit go". That's a lot faster than fumbling around like you need to now.

SR/STT will change the game when it become practical. We're a few years out at a minimum though.
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Renegade

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2011, 12:10:56 AM »
The problem with speech recognition is not that it doesn't work well enough, but that it is not appropriate as an input method in the vast majority of situations where a user needs to interact with a computer.

Thinking again, if by that you mean it's "not appropriate in public" as some sort of "manners" thing, and not the technical aspect, I still think that it will fly.

After all, what's the difference between talking ON the phone and talking TO the phone?

So, if you can get away talking on the phone, there's no difference. e.g. In some places it is against local by-laws to talk on the phone, like in some subways/metros/undergrounds.
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Carol Haynes

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2011, 09:54:51 AM »
So, if you can get away talking on the phone, there's no difference. e.g. In some places it is against local by-laws to talk on the phone, like in some subways/metros/undergrounds.

Except that it drives everyone else nuts - if it becomes endemic in offices there will be a huge medical bill from the violence and nervous breakdowns!

I'll be first in line for the jacket - nothing drives me off using the train than the incessant yabbering of rubbish on mobile phones for the entire journey. Unless it is me using the phone, of course.

If people think road rage has got bad wait until you see the reaction to office rage caused by speech interfaces in open plan office spaces!

Renegade

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2011, 10:06:27 AM »
Except that it drives everyone else nuts

That's a social issue, and those rules change in different places. Still, I don't think that it will prevent anyone from doing using their mobile devices with voice when it is finally "there". People do it now anyways. Let's face it -- nobody cares about anyone else, and being demure or polite is so last millennium. :)
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

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Renegade

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2011, 10:54:35 AM »
Google has some SR/STT for their search engine:

Screenshot - 2011-09-24 , 1_48_47 AM.pngCouldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(

It's limited, but for short, focused speech, it works ok.

If Metro has decent STT built in with an API for it, that would rock. Most mobile OSes have some kind of STT in them, so I'll be disappointed if Metro doesn't... Does anyone know?
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

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Carol Haynes

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2011, 10:55:13 AM »
I would effectively turn every open plan office into a call centre! I amnot sure everyone would be happy with that (outside the cheaper markets in SE Asia)

Stoic Joker

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2011, 11:35:01 AM »
Except that it drives everyone else nuts

That's a social issue, and those rules change in different places. Still, I don't think that it will prevent anyone from doing using their mobile devices with voice when it is finally "there". People do it now anyways. Let's face it -- nobody cares about anyone else, and being demure or polite is so last millennium. :)

I'm with Carol on this one. Social Issue (Meh...) no. Educational issue ... definitely getting warmer.

Lets take two people talking in a crowd. They will typically speak just and only loud enough to be heard by the other person. Now put one of these people on a cell phone.... And suddenly they are seized with the need to inhale deeply so the can bellow into the phone loud enough to be heard in the next god damn county. Why? Because they're to freaking stupid to realize that one of the phones most basic functions is to amplify the speakers voice so it can be heard.

I sometimes get calls from one of these people, and no matter how far I turn down the volume. I can't make out what they're saying because the (their) phone is distorting so badly from their inanely loud choice of speaking voices.

Or to put it in nice short words: Use you're indoor voice when on the phone ... it isn't designed to be screamed through, and you're not up in a tree trying to be heard on the other side of a fucking jungle..

This behavior isn't rude ... It's retarded.

daddydave

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2011, 02:14:32 PM »
I would effectively turn every open plan office into a call centre! I amnot sure everyone would be happy with that (outside the cheaper markets in SE Asia)

It's time to dust off John Dvorak's old joke from the 80's about going into a room of voice commanded computers and saying loudly "Format hard disk!"
If bad things happen to other people, it's karma. If bad things happen to me, it's kismat!

Stoic Joker

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2011, 02:45:12 PM »
I would effectively turn every open plan office into a call centre! I amnot sure everyone would be happy with that (outside the cheaper markets in SE Asia)

It's time to dust off John Dvorak's old joke from the 80's about going into a room of voice commanded computers and saying loudly "Format hard disk!"

 ;D  :Thmbsup:

Renegade

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2011, 08:42:35 PM »
I'm with Carol on this one. Social Issue (Meh...) no. Educational issue ... definitely getting warmer.


I think you guys are being idealistic. What happens when you give people rope? They hang themselves. Same deal here. Give people a new way to do anything, and they will. Throw a handgun into monkey cage at the zoo and you're in for some real entertainment. The first one loses his own head. The second one, well, that's where the black humor really starts... :P


This behavior isn't rude ... It's retarded.

And you expect what from the sheeple? :P


I don't talk on the phone much at all. Once every few days maybe. But looking around me, everyone else does. A lot. Give them voice commands for their mobile devices and there won't be a car on the road where anyone has their mouth shut. I don't think that will change outside the car either.

Face it. People love to hear the sound of their own voice.

Here's a little experiment. The next time you have a conversation with someone, be quiet as much as possible. I bet there won't be any silence no matter how hard you try to zip it. Throw in the odd "yeah" or "mm-hm" for dialectical lube, and whoever you're talking to will likely ramble on forever.

You're both describing what actually happens. People in public yabber on their phones forever. I think I'm describing *almost* the same thing, i.e. People in public will yabber TO their phones forever.

Hell... I think that the ELIZA program will make a comeback just so that people can keep yacking! :)

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Stoic Joker

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2011, 09:17:03 PM »
You're both describing what actually happens. People in public yabber on their phones forever. I think I'm describing *almost* the same thing, i.e. People in public will yabber TO their phones forever.

Oh god... We. Are. So. Fucking. Screwed...

Renegade

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2011, 09:41:40 PM »
You're both describing what actually happens. People in public yabber on their phones forever. I think I'm describing *almost* the same thing, i.e. People in public will yabber TO their phones forever.

Oh god... We. Are. So. Fucking. Screwed...

Buy stock in noise canceling earbuds/headphones NOW~! :P ;D
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

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Carol Haynes

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2011, 04:20:15 AM »
Why do you think the iPod took off - it is the only way to stop listening to people talking all the time. You listen to them screaming to music instead - but at least you get to chooser the scream.

mahesh2k

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Re: Couldn't be more disappointed in Windows 8 :(
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2011, 05:25:41 AM »
Android has an app for DNS(dragon naturally speaking) so it is taking off already. There is also an app for google search with voice on android. So slowly but surely it is taking up. My point is that - few years back in my early twenties i used to do some searches via typing keyword, i can comfortably do the same in future ( for ahm) at home for obvious reasons not using speech recognition. But the point is, i can't imagine future generation holding the same conservative thoughts like me. Unless i do some fundamental brainwashing, there is no way they're going to pick those conservative thoughts and feel awkward for the same. (Hmm, current teen generation liking lady gaga and Justin bieber says it all about our doomsday).They may do weird actions while using the paper displays or holograms in future or shout some swear words to program their tablets and mobiles to execute some of their tasks.