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Author Topic: NANY 2012 Release: Ethervane Echo  (Read 83970 times)
kyrathaba
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« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2011, 08:14:24 AM »

tranglos, great support.  I appreciate your quick responsiveness to feature requests and bug reports!  thumbs up
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tranglos
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« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2011, 04:54:48 PM »

  • have you thought about drag-and-drop or Move to ... ? The possibility of moving a clip from one Quick view to another (and in particular to a custom view, e.g. Archives) either by drag-and-drop or an option in the context menu to Move to ... As things are the Quick views can only contain filtered clips.

I'm not sure if I understand your request here. Views are by design defined by a set of conditions. So it wouldn't make sense to drag a non-sticky clip to the "Sticky" view, for example. Just make the clip sticky, and it will appear in that view. Or, if you have a view that sows only clips shorter than 10 characters, it would be illogical to allow dragging longer clips into that view.

If you mean more like manually maintained categories to organize clips - then I'm afraid Echo is designed specifically to avoid that. There are several advanced clipboard managers with that feature, from Mouser's CH&S to ClipMate, and of course it is very useful to a lot of people. However, I feel this design has a trade-off: reduced overall efficiency of searching and pasting clips. Since I spend many (too many!) hours typing text every day, I needed an app that would let me work as fast as possible. So Echo will never have categories to which you can drag or copy clips, that's exactly the feature that would make it unusable to me.

  • and what about clickable urls ?

Inside the editor, possibly (I will probably be replacing the editor with a different component altogether). But I don't think this can be done in the main list of clips, sorry! Basically, a clip is a single entity, a single item. You navigate between these items (clips), not inside the text of each clip. So it is physically impossible to click just a URL inside a clip - you can only click the whole clip.

I am wondering though if Echo could detect URLs inside a clip and list them in the right-click menu. Or have a special command / key press to find URLs and show them in a popup list.

(Of course, if a clip contains only a URL, it would be easy to launch it with a single click or key press. But very often URLs will be buried inside surrounding text, or you may have more than one URL in a clip, etc. Any feature to handle URLs must account for all these possibilities.)

BTW the way, unless I missed it somewhere, could you comment on the name : is it Ethervane like weathervane ?

Exactly! smiley It's just a word I came up with when looking for a free domain name.
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tranglos
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« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2011, 05:31:38 PM »

I strongly feel that the navigation commands should be buttons on the toolbar.

I agree as a general principle. At the same time, I am not yet convinced Echo actually needs a toolbar. It's meant to be keyboard-centric, and I kind-of like the sparse UI it has right now. Then again, a toolbar can always be hidden, so I'm adding a to-do!

Quote
A very cool feature to add to the editor is the ability to highlight search terms.  It's already awesome how the non-matches disappear (like evernote), but to make it perfect, the search terms would be highlighted individually.

I'll be looking into this, but right now, the control I'm using does not support that. Also, it might impact performance rather badly. But I agree that it would be sweet.

Quote
I can see of one use: trying to copy a portion of a clip already in the program.

Quite right. I'll probably redesign that part to have an option whether or not to capture clips from "inside" Echo.

This does involve a small usability problem though. You select a clip, press Shift+F2 to open it in the editor. When you finish editing, the clip is still selected - which is what you would typically expect. However, if new clips are added while you are editing the clip, then those new clips will get selection focus. At that point it is no longer obvious whether the original clip should be re-selected when you finish editing... which is why I decided to suspend capture during editing in the first place.

Quote
In the regular view, you can't highlight a portion of the note without opening the external editor.  In fact, if you made the stuff in the regular view selectable, you wouldn't even need an external editor.

It is selectable when editing (F2). But there is only so much I can do with "in-place" editor. I could make it permanent, but consider the price: you would not be able to navigate between clips using arrow keys any more. Imagine: you press down arrow, enter the clip, and the editor is active, so that you can navigate within it, select a part of it, etc.  If the clip has more than one line, you would have to press down arrow repeatedly to go past all the lines before you would reach the next (lower) clip. Navigation would become rather annoying. And since this is a clipboard manager, not an editor or a note-taker, I feel that the usability of clip navigation has priority over editing.

Quote
But I'd really like to be able to select and copy a portion of a clip without having to double-click on it first, or open up an editor, or any extra steps.

I don't think you can avoid at least one extra step[, otherwise you'd have the navigation nightmare. One thing I could use is the "long click" idiom, or a second click on the same item. Click an icon on the desktop, it selects the icon. Click it again after a short delay, the caption opens for editing. I can do that.

Quote
And when I copy that subclip, I'd like the option in the preferences to record or ignore copied subclips.  i would set it to record everything including subclips.

The preference, yes. But in the in-place editor the selection issue is even more problematic. A new clip automatically gets selected (and usually placed on top, if you're sorting by date). Consider what that would do if you were editing a clip: select some text, copy it, and in the blink of an eye you are now at the top of the list, with the new clip selected. And it's not just a question of "so don't select the new clip" - you cannot add a new clip to the list without first shutting down the active editor. (At least I don't think it's possible, but I'll check.) When you press F2, a memo-like editor is "invisibly" placed over the clip, so it looks like you're editing the item directly in the list. But you're not: you're working in a little invisible memo. As long as that memo exists, you cannot modify the list in any way (again, I think you can't).

Quote
Another feature I'd love to have (as in CHS and Arsclip) is a quickpaste menu for pasting stuff.  So with CHS and ARSclip, with a hotkey, you can have a quickpaste menu appear right under your mouse pointer which is awesome.

I thought the menu in Arsclip was awful! :-) I mean, the menu can show only a small number of items, it cannot be searched or filtered, plus IIRC Arsclip puts it in the tray, which is usually far from where the caret is. So why or how would you use that instead of the main list in Echo? (For example, should the menu contain only certain clips that you mark for inclusion?)

As for the positioning, Echo already tries to show up right next to the caret - or the mouse pointer, if the caret is not available. This doesn't always work; in some cases Echo doesn't seem to detect the caret position, I'll have to look into that at some point.

Quote
Also, how about an option to show the entire note in the normal view, regardless of the length.  I know we can set it to a big value, but how about just a "always show entire note" setting?

...and then you open "Moby Dick" in a PDF, do Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C... No, I think there has to be a limit. Because if you did that, it would totally kill the search feature - it would take a full minute or so to update the list instead of a split second. Just set it to a really large value if you wish, please :-) .


« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 05:28:04 AM by tranglos » Logged

joiwind
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« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2011, 05:50:22 AM »

Thanks for your detailed reply tranglos - things are clearer now ... ! And I do understand the way you wish to go.

About clickable urls : how about urls in the URLs View being clickable - just another idea ?

And the name : reminds me of EthervaneRadio ... Grin
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« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2011, 06:26:50 AM »

@tranglos, first congratulation on "Ethervane Echo" pledge.

Second I pledged "Paste Text Like", which works with clipboard too, so we are both in same boat now smiley

Without making "Ethervane Echo" any lesser than "ArsClip", I will like to say that you can open the ArsClip menu at cursor position (set hotkey in Configure) and can increase the number of item (Configure / Show Options). It does has search feature (N - Search, in menu). Permanent clip with script, edit clipboard, exclude program, paste method, form mode etc. are few others which I use occasionally.

But "ArsClip" too has it's short coming, and I will suggest you take idea from it and enhance it and make it more easier.

Regards,

Anand
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tranglos
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« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2011, 09:01:55 AM »

@tranglos, first congratulation on "Ethervane Echo" pledge.

Second I pledged "Paste Text Like", which works with clipboard too, so we are both in same boat now :)

I've noticed! The more, the merrier. The clipboard seems to be a fairly simple concept on the surface, but when you start extending its capabilities, different people go in so many different directions. It's quite cool that way.

Quote
Without making "Ethervane Echo" any lesser than "ArsClip", I will like to say that you can open the ArsClip menu at cursor position (set hotkey in Configure) and can increase the number of item (Configure / Show Options). It does has search feature (N - Search, in menu). Permanent clip with script, edit clipboard, exclude program, paste method, form mode etc. are few others which I use occasionally.

Yeah, I only remember testing a version of ArsClip a long time ago. I haven't looked recently. Excluding applications is already available in Echo, too - that's one of the things I was missing in Ditto.  Still, a menu cannot have multi-line items, for example, and if there is a special menu command to initiate search, it's probably not the kind of "instant search" that I am after. (OK, so I'm talking without seeing it again, never mind :-)
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« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2011, 02:30:06 PM »

Yeah, I only remember testing a version of ArsClip a long time ago. [...] if there is a special menu command to initiate search, it's probably not the kind of "instant search" that I am after.
You have to hit a key on the popup to invoke Search.  After that, it is what I think people mean by an "instant search" feature.  That is, press "d","o","n" and you get everything that includes those, add an "a", and you start to see only those entries with "donation coder" in them.  The more letters you add, the more you close in on your target, and removing letters widens it in real time, the list of possibles widens to match.

As for anandcoral's program, I think of it as in the (smaller) class of "clipboard manipulators" that includes Text Monkey, Clippy, and FDC.  I'm happy enough for them to remain a separate class of software, especially for the more specialised functions.
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« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2011, 01:46:23 PM »

First of all I must say that this has quickly become my favorite clipboard manager.
Since I was using Ditto before and read your intro I downloaded the program, and replaced Ditto with it the same day.

There seems to be some kind of problem with the search though.
Using this clip for example.
The clip was copied in its entirety, but searching for hello gave no results...
I also tried deleting all the clips and restarting.
If you try copying a smaller part of the clip at some point the search does yield results.
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tranglos
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« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2011, 02:06:31 PM »

First of all I must say that this has quickly become my favorite clipboard manager.
Since I was using Ditto before and read your intro I downloaded the program, and replaced Ditto with it the same day.

Thank you! And welcome to DC!

There seems to be some kind of problem with the search though.
Using this clip for example.
The clip was copied in its entirety, but searching for hello gave no results...

I can tell this is going to be a FAQ smiley

The word 'hello' in your clip is preceded by about 600 other characters. By default, Echo only searches the first 512 characters of any clip. This is important for performance reasons, since clips are not kept in memory, but in the database on disk. My justification for that decision is that a great majority of clips are not very large chunks of text, so that, um, 512 bytes should be enough for everybody smiley

There is another reason: it is going to be very inconvenient (and slow) to browse really long pieces of text in the list of clips. So clips must be truncated for display.

Given these two practical limits, Echo uses the same setting to control two things: the max length of a clip that is displayed, and the max length of a clip that is searched.

You can find and increase the setting under Tools -> Preferences -> Database -> MaxDispTextSize.

Initially it is set to 512. You can increase it, but the larger the value, the slower your searches will be, if you do keep a lot of long clips. It's a trade-off, and you can experiment to find a good compromise.

Note also that changing this value only affects clips captured after the change. Clips already stored in the database will still be limited to the previous max value. This can be fixed (so that the change affects already stored clips as well), at a cost of re-writing the database, which may be a long operation (a few seconds to a minute or more, depending on your db size and hard disk speed).

(I should stress that the limit does not mean that clips are cut off at that length. Echo always stores and pastes back the complete clip, exactly as it was originally captured. The limit only determines how big a part of the clip is searched and displayed.

There is another setting that tells Echo to ignore (not even capture) clips that are larger than a certain length. This one is at Tools -> Preferences -> Capturing clips -> MaxTextSize, and it is initially set to 1 MB. The size refers to the length of plain text contained in the clip.)

Check out the "Limitations" and "Troubleshooting" topics in the help file as well. This issue is explained there, but perhaps not as clearly as it could be. ("Cannot find a clip, but you know it exists in the database", item 2 under Troubleshooting.)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 03:11:31 PM by tranglos » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2011, 03:19:00 PM »

I'll have to try and play with the setting a bit.
Thanks.
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« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2011, 07:36:27 AM »

Trying this again - havent used it much yet.

I want to edit clips within the app but keep the original version - sort of like save as
is this possible? (I couldnt find a way)

It's easy for me to do this in a text editor, so, just wondering if possible here
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« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2011, 08:13:08 AM »

I want to edit clips within the app but keep the original version - sort of like save as  is this possible? (I couldnt find a way)

It's easy for me to do this in a text editor, so, just wondering if possible here

Not yet, but it's on my todo list (in the external editor, a button such as "Save as New").

Right now the best you can do is:

1) Open a clip in external editor (Shift+F2)
2) Modify it there.
3) Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C to copy the whole edited clip.
4) Cancel the editor (ESC), since you don't want to replace the existing clip.
5) Press Ctrl+M to manually capture the new clip. (It was not captured in step 3, because Echo suspends capturing when the editor is active. This is another todo item :-)
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tomos
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« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2011, 08:50:18 AM »

thanks tranglos thumbs up

I ran into a problem with FileHamster (FHm) comment window - I have FHm set to show comment window when making a revision (when I save a file). This comment window is always on top.
If I then call Echo, it is below the comment window, so is not very usable - do you think could it be made more assertively (!) "on top" ?
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« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2011, 09:18:42 AM »

thanks tranglos thumbs up

I ran into a problem with FileHamster (FHm) comment window - I have FHm set to show comment window when making a revision (when I save a file). This comment window is always on top.
If I then call Echo, it is below the comment window, so is not very usable - do you think could it be made more assertively (!) "on top" ?

Under Vista and later, I don't think so. I can make give it the regular "on top" flag, but it won't be any more "on top" than any other window that claimed on-topness for itself.
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« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2011, 05:13:02 AM »

[1] Is there a pattern to where the window shows on the screen - it always seems to come up directly behind the Filehamster comment window (just right of centre-bottom of screen), but if I escape and call it again, it shows mid left of screen.

[2] How do I change the shortcut - I tried Shift & F12 - typing in F12 but that didnt work (or does it need a restart? - no that no help)
Ctrl+Alt+v doesnt work either.
Win+v works - I'll stick with that**
(BTW what does the MK mean on the qualifier keys in options?)

** Shift+Insert worked as well
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tranglos
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« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2011, 06:50:47 AM »

[1] Is there a pattern to where the window shows on the screen - it always seems to come up directly behind the Filehamster comment window (just right of centre-bottom of screen), but if I escape and call it again, it shows mid left of screen.

I'm seeing the same behavior on my system, but I don't know what's causing it. In default configuration Echo tries to detect where the text caret is and shows next to the caret (a little to the right and below if possible, but position is adjusted to make sure the whole window fits on screen). Caret position is obtained from Windows. Still, sometimes Echo shows not only far from the caret, but in my case on another monitor which doesn't even contain an active window.

Either Windows is lying to me or my code doesn't cover all bases. As you've noticed, sometimes you press the hotkey, then ESC, then the hotkey again, and each time Echo shows at a different location. The only way I can explain it is that each time Echo gets different caret coordinates from Windows, even though the caret has not moved. I'll look into it.

(On edit: All this works, when it works, only if the active window actually has a blinking text caret. If it does not, then caret does not exist and Echo shows up at its most recent location. This will often happen with web browsers, image viewers, any app without an active text editing field. But then, you don't / can't paste clips there, anyway.)


If this gets too annoying, there are a few other options in Tools -> Preferences -> Display -> PopupPosition:

ppLast : always show at the last remembered position (like most apps)
ppAtMouseCursor : show near the mouse cursor
ppActiveMonitorCenter : show in the middle of the monitor that contains the active window

[2] How do I change the shortcut - I tried Shift & F12 - typing in F12 but that didnt work (or does it need a restart? - no that no help)
Ctrl+Alt+v doesnt work either.
Win+v works - I'll stick with that**
(BTW what does the MK mean on the qualifier keys in options?)

Restart is not needed. The modifier is indeed optional, although it's usually not a good idea to use e.g. F12 by itself. The reason it's confusing is the same as why the whole Preferences dialog is confusing smiley The hotkey is controlled by two settings:

In "ActivationHotkeyKey" type the name of the key itself, without modifiers, e.g. 'Ins', 'a' or 'F12'.

In "ActivationHotkeyModifier" click the + symbol at left to expand the list, and there'll be four separate modifier keys listed. Set to True for the modifiers you want, keep the rest False.



As soon as you click OK or Apply, the new hotkey should be active.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 07:43:10 AM by tranglos » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2011, 07:12:55 AM »

[2] How do I change the shortcut - I tried Shift & F12 - typing in F12 but that didnt work (or does it need a restart? - no that no help)
Ctrl+Alt+v doesnt work either.
Win+v works - I'll stick with that**
(BTW what does the MK mean on the qualifier keys in options?)

Restart is not needed. The modifier is indeed optional, although it's usually not a good idea to use e.g. F12 by itself. The reason it's confusing is the same as why the whole Preferences dialog is confusing smiley The hotkey is controlled by two settings:

In "ActivationHotkeyKey" type the name of the key itself, without modifiers, e.g. 'Ins', 'a' or 'F12'.

In "ActivationHotkeyModifier" click the + symbol at left to expand the list, and there'll be four separate modifier keys listed. Set to True for the modifiers you want, keep the rest False.

As soon as you click OK or Apply, the new hotkey should be active.

hmm.. yeah, I was doing it correctly - these particular combos still not working here.

         Shift+F12
         Ctrl+Alt+V**

Win+F12 does work so it's not a problem with F12.
Shift+F12 doesnt work with either Shift key.

I could try your app to show all shortcuts taken to see if something else is using them (what's it called again?!)

** Ctrl+Alt+V didnt work one minute ago - is now working. Something funny going on - obviously not necessarily with your app... I dont believe it's user error, but it could just be one of those days cheesy
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« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2011, 07:31:47 AM »


I could try your app to show all shortcuts taken to see if something else is using them (what's it called again?!)

ActiveHotkeys: http://ethervane.com/files/activehotkeys.zip

It does look as if some other process could be swallowing some combinations.
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« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2011, 07:59:09 AM »

It does look as if some other process could be swallowing some combinations.

yes, that's it, thanks thumbs up
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« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2011, 07:33:22 AM »

I can make give it the regular "on top" flag

I expected it to be easy, since all my earlier apps written in Delphi 3 had that feature. Turns out, nothing is easy anymore, especially under Vista/7. I'm having major problems getting the "always on top" thing to work. The whole sordid story is here, unsolved.
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« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2011, 11:28:17 PM »

By the way, tranglos, all of your responses to my feature requests were perfectly reasonable.  I never responded back.  Yes, as usual you have thought all of this through very well.

It's a great program, I've been using it in parallel with my other clipboard programs like ARS and CHS.  With the CHS features, ARS is being phased out for me.  I like Echo for some of the interface issues.  The one I'm probably going to commit to in the end is AceText, but also in parallel with these free ones.
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« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2011, 10:51:45 AM »

Congrats, Tranglos, on a fine app. It has already become my "session clipboard" (I use the "database in memory" mode).

One thing I'm unclear about -- no matter how much I increase MaxDispTextSize, the display of each item is limited to 5 lines, even if FixedItemHeight is false. To view more of the item I need to adjust the width of the window. Even then I never seem to see the full item, unless I use the editor. Is there another setting I need to adjust?
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« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2011, 01:50:16 PM »

One thing I'm unclear about -- no matter how much I increase MaxDispTextSize, the display of each item is limited to 5 lines, even if FixedItemHeight is false. To view more of the item I need to adjust the width of the window. Even then I never seem to see the full item, unless I use the editor. Is there another setting I need to adjust?

MaxDispTextSize applies only to clips that will be captured after you've changed the setting.

Another setting controls how many lines of each item can be displayed: Preferences -> Display -> MaxLinesPerItem. This one will be applied immediately, but the displayed text of each item will still  be limited to MaxDispTextSize.


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« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2011, 05:23:01 PM »

Thanks, MaxLinesPerItem was what I was looking for. But I can't set it higher than 10?
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« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2011, 05:38:54 PM »

Thanks, MaxLinesPerItem was what I was looking for. But I can't set it higher than 10?

I'll remove this restriction in the next release. The practical limit is the vertical screen resolution, because items taller than the screen would be quite inconvenient to view.





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