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Author Topic: Problem: I can't understand how to get a W7-64 machine into an XP-32 network  (Read 4485 times)
cranioscopical
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« on: August 15, 2011, 09:27:05 AM »

Friends, I could really use some help (a lot of people tell me that)!


The issue
Lately, I've been wrestling with a slew of failures on my main computer. I'm up against a nasty deadline so I decided to buy my way out with a new personal machine. This took me from XP-32 to Win 7-64.

My problem is coaxing the new W7 machine onto my small home network of XP-32 SP3 machines.

To say that I'm not good with network stuff is akin to saying that the world economy is slightly imperfect.
 


The grovelling
Between wrestling with a flaky machine and setting up a new one from scratch I'm just plain lost. Then terminology is different and my internet connection so slow that looking up material on line takes for ever (>30 seconds here, just to move between pages).

I have received good tips and pointers to reference documents from knowledgeable and goodhearted friends (thanks 40hz, Target). That ought to be enough: not so! Now I'm publicly humiliating myself in the hopes of:
  • Being treated with the tolerance required by a simpleton
  • Being led to a solution
  • Leaving a trail that might help some other poor unfortunate

So far, I seem to have convinced W7 that my wireless network is my wired connection and vice versa.

Has anyone the time and patience to take me by the hand and walk me through this before I manage to disable every machine that I have?

I was hoping to find the light but I must have taken the road to Damascus — I just can't see!

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Chris
Shades
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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2011, 10:22:11 AM »

You have to adjust some network settings on the Win7 PC, so the other PC's can access it.

All (LAN) network communication is encrypted, Win7 uses by default 128-bits encryption, while XP (and lower) uses 56-bits variant. This is easily adjusted (advanced settings from the networking profile 'home'/'work' or 'public').

Fred Langa has an article on the Windowssecrets.com site where he explains some settings that will increase the speed from networking noticably by disabling HomeGroup (which is useful on Win7-only networks anyway).

Do not forget that Microsoft did it on purpose to setup default values that make it hard to use Win7 in heterogeneous networks. Some of these default values make sense, some really don't.
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cranioscopical
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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2011, 11:19:29 AM »

Thanks, Shades.

I read that article (and others) confident that all would be well.
Things didn't happen as I expected, I couldn't find other machines.
I need someone to help me walk through the specific settings, step by step  Sad embarassed embarassed embarassed
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Chris
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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2011, 11:48:10 AM »

You should find out the IP(v4) number from each of your PC's in the network. (open dos-box and type the command 'IPCONFIG /all')
Normally those start with 192.168.x.x or 10.0.x.x. Disable any firewalls for the time being.

Then go the Win7 PC and open explorer or your favorite file manager and type '\\192.168.x.x'. The explorer screen should show the available shares from the PC you are trying to connect. If that is the case than DNS is not working like it should.

Enable them after you are done and retry, if you don't see anything anymore your firewall is blocking.

Now share a folder on the Win7 PC and see if you can access the Win7 shared folder from an XP PC.
If not, the share on Win7 is likely not "opened up" enough, because of security settings on the Win7 PC.
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Stoic Joker
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« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2011, 12:12:17 PM »

You should find out the IP(v4) number from each of your PC's in the network. (open dos-box and type the command 'IPCONFIG /all')
Normally those start with 192.168.x.x or 10.0.x.x. Disable any firewalls for the time being.

This is probably the most important part of the diagnostic. Firewalls (especially 3rd party firewalls) create more anguish than they'll ever be worth. Terminate them with extreme prejudice. ...You'll be happier for it later.

Make sure you can ping target machine X by IP

Make sure you can ping target machine by name

Make sure everybody either is, or is not using Simple File Sharing (I prefer it off).

Make sure there are no blank passwords being used.
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cranioscopical
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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2011, 12:14:14 PM »

I'm sitting with an XP machine beside the i7 for convenience.
I dropped the firewalls on both machines.
typed in \\(and the ip address) of the XP machine... 'network path not found'
restored both firewalls for the moment.

in the W7 active networks, it shows my wireless network as 'work network' Local Area Connection.
In fact, I have the wireless card disabled.
If I drop the lan cable from the machine, the 'wireless' network has no connection (and I'm off the net).
So W7 thinks my hardwired connection is the wireless network, undoubtedly because of some error I made in a configuration somewhere.

If I disconnect all but my W7 and one XP machine, will that be enough to limit this exercise to just the two machines for the time being?
That would cut down the diagnostic stuff quite a bit
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 12:18:05 PM by cranioscopical » Logged

Chris
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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2011, 12:21:18 PM »

Ok, call me naive, but how about going to Device Manager and the Network screens, and deleting your network cards and the likes? After a reboot, Windows ought to recognise them again... except you should  hopefully get rid of whatever wrong choices you make. I never heard of Windows confusing wireless and wirey, and I'd prefer to hit it with a good stick of sanity in such a situation.
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cranioscopical
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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2011, 12:41:59 PM »

Ok, call me naive, but how about going to Device Manager and the Network screens, and deleting your network cards and the likes?

I just tried that.
Then I disabled the wireless LAN card
The wireless connection icon in the tray claims to be connected to the web.
If I then pull the CAT cable the 'wireless' connection vanishes.

I'm going to drop back to a restore point that's before I began.
I may be back, but then again...
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Chris
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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2011, 01:02:29 PM »

Is it merely a 'wrong description' issue? In other words, when you click on your 'Wired' connection settings, can you choose wireless networks? Do the physical devices/drivers match up with their improper names (thus confirming it is just a naming issue!) ? If it is just a matter of a wrong name, you can very likely just F2 (=rename) and forget about it in terms of finding the error there... although I still am of the opinion it is weird as hell.
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cranioscopical
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« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2011, 01:46:43 PM »

Just to keep things interesting, system restore failed.
I'll probably wind up retoring this machine from an image.

But first, can anyone tell me how to delete an incorrect network setup under W7.

Dumb though it sounds, a lot of my trouble here is that I can't yet find how to do what I was used to doing under XP.

I hope somebody's at least getting a chuckle out of this...
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Chris
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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2011, 02:06:54 PM »

Chuckle. (Sorry.)
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cranioscopical
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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2011, 03:03:37 PM »

Chuckle. (Sorry.)

 Grin Grin  My work has not been in vain  Thmbsup
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Chris
cranioscopical
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« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2011, 03:12:40 PM »


Hooray!

All stations on the network are communicating.

Thanks for the pointers, everyone! (If only I knew what I did  embarassed )

A new machine ought to be fun but, due to circumstances, this hasn't been too enjoyable... yet.

My own conclusion about W7 is that it would be great for someone starting from scratch. Trying to impose a structure in keeping with a previous machine is a bit frustrating. Thank goodness for FARR and the W7 search box on the start menu.

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Chris
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2011, 03:20:22 PM »

I just took a quick glance around.. and I noticed that in my Network and Sharing Center, there is a 'Connection' header with the name of the adapter/network-thingy behind it, which says 'Local Area Connection' in my case. The interesting bit though is that right before it it has an icon that resembles a RJ-45 plug used for networking to signify it is wired. What does it show for you? (Disclaimer: this pc does not have a wireless connection...)

Either way, I think clicking around there should fix your problems. My computer was never configured for a Homegroup or whatever, and I did not have any issues interfacing with old XP computers, so you can at least ignore the settings involving that.

Oh, you ninja'd this post to say you fixed it. Well done!

If I can give any tips  to a new W7 user, it is to move the taskbar to either the left or the right side of your screen so that it becomes vertical. It is a change that takes a day or two of getting used to, but I find that I really love the vertical space all my windows get this way - especially on those wide screens nowadays. As an added advantage, I find my taskbar ends up wasting less screen space because in W7 I am not nearly as dependant on window labels. smiley
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 03:25:29 PM by worstje » Logged
Stoic Joker
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« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2011, 03:29:05 PM »

Hooray!

All stations on the network are communicating.

Glad you got it working.

Windows 7 should be able to connect just fine to an XP workgroup right out of the box. I did two of them last week with zero issues.

Main tripping points tend to be Simple File Sharing (unless everybody is Home edition, then you're stuck with it), Blank passwords (MS killed that action by default in XP SP2), Firewalls, and selection the wrong network type/location:
Public (locks it down like a nun's knees)
Work (allows communication to happen)
Home (Lets it be free & easy)
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Shades
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« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2011, 03:46:39 PM »

Hooray!

All stations on the network are communicating.

Glad you got it working.

Windows 7 should be able to connect just fine to an XP workgroup right out of the box. I did two of them last week with zero issues.

Main tripping points tend to be Simple File Sharing (unless everybody is Home edition, then you're stuck with it), Blank passwords (MS killed that action by default in XP SP2), Firewalls, and selection the wrong network type/location:
Public (locks it down like a nun's knees)

[evil joke]


[/evil joke]
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nudone
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« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2011, 03:47:05 PM »

Well done. Glad you sorted it. Now you just need to repeat the entire process to try and figure out what happened.
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cranioscopical
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« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2011, 04:22:10 PM »

Thanks a lot everyone!

I very much appreciate all of you taking the time to pitch in on my problem... even Nudone
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Chris
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« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2011, 05:34:22 PM »

[evil joke]

That is wrong on so many levels ... I like it.

 cheesy
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cranioscopical
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« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2011, 09:23:14 PM »

[evil joke]

That is wrong on so many levels ... I like it.

 cheesy

Then try to get into the habit!
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Chris
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« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2011, 10:33:50 PM »

if anyone was wondering where Chris has been today...


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"Look wise, say nothing, and grunt. Speech was given to conceal thought" - Sir William Osler
cranioscopical
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« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2011, 11:38:37 PM »

if anyone was wondering where Chris has been today...

I think I'll skip that one...


And since we're in my topic about W7, and I'm going to have to retain some XP machines to run some of the stuff at which 7 turns up its nose...

Has anyone here any comments about/experience with this KVM? Linkskey LDV-DM702AUSK KVM Switch - 2-Port, Dual DVI Support, USB, Sound


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Chris
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« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2011, 05:55:54 PM »

I've got a question related to this topic:

I took a (non-OS) hard drive from a Windows 7 machine and put it into a Windows XP machine. Now I'm trying to copy the files off that Win XP machine's drive onto a different Windows 7 machine's HDD. But I don't have permission to access the files because they were in a "Library" on the old Windows 7 machine.

How do I remove the limited permission settings and allow myself access to my own data again?

Thanks!
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Shades
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« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2011, 06:14:17 AM »

Regain control over your files by changing ownership would be a way to go, but when you place the disk back in the Win7 PC you will expect problems (differences between the NT filesystems from win7 and XP).
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Stoic Joker
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« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2011, 06:41:07 AM »

I've got a question related to this topic:

I took a (non-OS) hard drive from a Windows 7 machine and put it into a Windows XP machine. Now I'm trying to copy the files off that Win XP machine's drive onto a different Windows 7 machine's HDD. But I don't have permission to access the files because they were in a "Library" on the old Windows 7 machine.

How do I remove the limited permission settings and allow myself access to my own data again?

Thanks!

That's not a permissions issue. The Win 7 librarys use a file system link type that XP can't follow/understand. If you just go to the folder on the drive that the link points to, you should be able to access it from there.
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