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Author Topic: Congratz to the US Military Forces!  (Read 17838 times)
edbro
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« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2011, 08:16:37 AM »

celebration over murder (not justice) is no way forward.
I truly do not understand how us taking out a terrorist responsible for thousands and thousands of death, and someone who continues to be a threat, constitutes murder. It baffles my mind.

What would you have us do? Invite him for tea and let bygones be bygones? Tap him on the shoulder and say "tag, you're it", then let him go to continue killing innocents?

I consider myself a liberal but that only goes so far. I'm not so bleeding heart that I would simply walk up, shake his hand and let him go.

I am one of those you condemn for celebrating. Hell yeah, I'm happy. The world is a better place without Bin Laden in it. Just as the world celebrated the death of Hitler, we celebrate this one too.

In this country we do not simply let terrorists go. For example, if we caught someone responsible for bringing down a jumbo jet full of people, we wouldn't give him back to Libya for better oil contracts. Is the world a better place after Libya celebrated the release of the Lockerbie Bomber? Now they have made him a martyr for Islamic terrorism. Just saying...

Let's not forget who started this war that is responsible for countless innocent deaths on both sides. The US did not ask for this, Osama did. He started a war and as such, was considered an combatant and legitimate military target. An attack on American soil against our civilians can not be disregarded. Not then and never in the future. Today I am an extremely proud American, as I am every day.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 08:35:45 AM by edbro » Logged
housetier
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« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2011, 08:40:32 AM »

What would you have us do?

Have him stand trial.
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edbro
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« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2011, 08:42:44 AM »

All news reports say he went down fighting. Capture wasn't an option during the gunfight.
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nudone
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« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2011, 08:49:21 AM »

Here's a convenient link if you want to follow the reports updated by the minute: http://www.guardian.co.uk...sama-bin-laden-death-live

Interesting bits so far:

Bin Laden living in area known to authorities for quite a while.

Orders were to kill, not capture.

Burial at sea okay under Islamic Law - or not, depending on which expert says so.
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edbro
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« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2011, 09:04:59 AM »

Here's a convenient link if you want to follow the reports updated by the minute: http://www.guardian.co.uk...sama-bin-laden-death-live

Quote
"This was a kill operation," he said, making clear there was no desire to try to capture Bin Laden alive in Pakistan.
Well, I stand corrected but, good on them I say! Imagine the security nightmare if he was captured. There would be non-peaceful rioting all across the extremist Islamic world if we simply held him in captivity.

As to whether the burial at sea was proper or not, I simply don't care. We couldn't afford to have his grave turned into a shrine. It still sounds like we paid heed to islamic burial customs. I don't see Al Qaeda caring too much about Christian sensitivities.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 09:07:49 AM by edbro » Logged
wraith808
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« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2011, 09:18:38 AM »

How about 2,977 of "us" to 1 of "them"?

Sorry this is my last comment on this but... it isn't 3000 to 1, it is 3000 to untold numbers (probably more than 100000) of innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan. OK bin Laden deserved what he got but aren't the US and UK supposed to be civilised countries that say they want to show the way to a better future? If so how do street celebrations help? Relief that he is no longer part of the problem yes - celebration over murder (not justice) is no way forward. And don't forget the cost paid by all those other civilians caught in the middle.

I'll let that one lie.  I was comparing the one statement of the one person that was killed that was unrepentant and currently killing versus those (and that number is a bit light- as that was only the figure for 9/11) that he killed.  And if you're going to go to Iraq and Afganistan, then you also have to include those that he killed in those countries.  Not US forces.  But civilians- especially Muslim civilians.  He killed more Muslims than Americans/Europeans, truth be told.

I probably didn't phrase that well.

Compare pictures of people rejoicing after 9/11 and the recent pictures of people doing the same thing over Osama. It's the same thing - people screaming for blood.

Either way, it's pretty sad to see people getting all hard & wet over other people dying.

I can't claim to be an angel though. There are people out there that I think would be better off dead, and people that I think would make the world a better place if they died.

I suppose it seems to be a fine line between rejoicing over someone's death, and being glad for what their death represents.

I can get behind that sentiment.  I'm not glad nor rejoicing that a human died.  In fact, I feel very little in regards to that in this case- positive or negative (take that for what you will).  What I am glad about is that one of the unrepentant architects of needless sufferings has been taken to task for his actions.  I'm old fashioned in that way- never women or children.
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Renegade
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« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2011, 09:22:35 AM »

What would you have us do?

Have him stand trial.

+1

But it just goes to show what kind of a world we live in. It's perfectly fine to murder people if you can get away with it. It's also fine to steal and do anything else if you can get away with it. The only "evil" in this world is "getting caught/punished".

Dunno... I'm kind of ambivalent on the topic. I don't know whether "doing the right thing" even matters anymore.

I'd rather focus on other things, like whether or not Apple will produce a red iPhone. cheesy
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Renegade
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« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2011, 09:26:05 AM »

I'm old fashioned in that way- never women or children.

Oh, that's NATO's job to kill women and children.
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wraith808
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« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2011, 09:57:00 AM »

What would you have us do?

Have him stand trial.

+1

But it just goes to show what kind of a world we live in. It's perfectly fine to murder people if you can get away with it. It's also fine to steal and do anything else if you can get away with it. The only "evil" in this world is "getting caught/punished".

I don't know.  A capture order is a lot more difficult to execute than a kill order- putting those that go after him in a lot more danger.  And it doesn't put an ending on things... riots, security, the ability to even *have* a meaningful trial (not just a kangaroo court), and the threat of tit for tat kidnappings.  And let's not mention the fact that even a guilty verdict is no guarantee that he would stay in prison.  In some cases, expedience definitely trumps ideal outcomes IMO.

I'm old fashioned in that way- never women or children.

Oh, that's NATO's job to kill women and children.

Wartime situations are a different animal, unfortunately, which is the reason that handling such situations with precision strikes rather than the broad brush of wartime operations is a better option if possible.  The larger the weapon, the more chance of casualties such as these.
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« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2011, 10:34:45 AM »

(there is IMHO a big difference between collateral damage and deliberately targeting civilians, though)

IMHO, no difference whatsoever. When you start bombing a country, you know there will be civilian casualties and you know this is not avoidable. Saying they are not deliberate is just that - saying it. You made it deliberate when you set out to bomb a city or a village full of civilians.
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edbro
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« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2011, 10:46:26 AM »

So, what would you advocate? I ask this not with any sarcasm, I am truly curious as to what you think the alternative should be. When one party launches a military assault on a country, inflicting heavy civilian casualties, what should be done? Should it go unanswered, which would invite more attacks?

I should also remind you that a lot of the collateral damage is caused by cowards who take refuge in population centers and who use women and children as human shields. One of the four killed last night was a woman that one of the men was using as a human shield. This weekend there was a bombing in Iraq against civilians where they used a 12 year old boy as the suicide attacker. Where is your outrage at that?
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wraith808
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« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2011, 10:47:22 AM »

(there is IMHO a big difference between collateral damage and deliberately targeting civilians, though)

IMHO, no difference whatsoever. When you start bombing a country, you know there will be civilian casualties and you know this is not avoidable. Saying they are not deliberate is just that - saying it. You made it deliberate when you set out to bomb a city or a village full of civilians.


But the point of the matter is that it is avoidable, for the fact that there are operations where it doesn't happen.  It's just a matter of how much operational risk are you willing to take to avoid civilian casualties.  (BTW- I abhor the term collateral damage.  It's a euphemism used to cover up the fact that this damage takes its toll in lives.  If you're going to do the act, at least look it in the eye when you do so.)
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wraith808
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« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2011, 10:52:23 AM »

So, what would you advocate? I ask this not with any sarcasm, I am truly curious as to what you think the alternative should be. When one party launches a military assault on a country, inflicting heavy civilian casualties, what should be done? Should it go unanswered, which would invite more attacks?

I should also remind you that a lot of the collateral damage is caused by cowards who take refuge in population centers and who use women and children as human shields. One of the four killed last night was a woman that one of the men was using as a human shield. This weekend there was a bombing in Iraq against civilians where they used a 12 year old boy as the suicide attacker. Where is your outrage at that?

Personally, I think the largest weapon against such is to not use pejorative and leading terms in referring to what you're doing.  If you're willing to undertake an op against a target that you recognize will use such tactics, then don't sugar coat what you're doing- but put it down as precedent for (1) what the cost in lives other than to the soldiers involved might/will be, and (2) the case for why that risk is willing to be taken or what can be done to mitigate this chance for harm.  In too many cases we take the easy way out in order to mitigate operational risk, and not to put boots on the ground.  Military caskets make bad politics.  But in order to not put faceless people in other countries on the line, sometimes those military caskets will be the cost.  Our lives or theirs is what it comes down to in the end, but no one is willing to admit that this is the choice.
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« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2011, 10:55:22 AM »

It's a symbolic victory but it means a lot to people who lost their loved ones and I'm happy for them.

As for retaliatory attacks... meh! these guys never needed an excuse to take lives anyway, if anything they'll get all worked up and act unprepared now.

I think there would have been a concerted effort to get him alive if he had more than purely symbolic worth. The guy was out of the loop, holed up without telephones or internet. Just an a-hole who was better off dead and the world's a better place without him.  

The Indian media has got a bone to chew on - OBL "hiding out" a few hundred yards from a Pakistani military academy in a disproportionately large house for that area with 12 foot walls. Move along, nothing to see here.  Cool
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« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2011, 11:29:02 AM »

So, what would you advocate? I ask this not with any sarcasm, I am truly curious as to what you think the alternative should be. When one party launches a military assault on a country, inflicting heavy civilian casualties, what should be done? Should it go unanswered, which would invite more attacks?

I should also remind you that a lot of the collateral damage is caused by cowards who take refuge in population centers and who use women and children as human shields. One of the four killed last night was a woman that one of the men was using as a human shield. This weekend there was a bombing in Iraq against civilians where they used a 12 year old boy as the suicide attacker. Where is your outrage at that?

...

I had a very long post written, but have decided against it. Nothing inflammatory. It was simply, well, forget it.

I see it as boiling down to killing is killing.

The only question then is, are you willing to commit "evil"?

It seems like a lot of people are willing. Meh... I think I'm going to get back to working on some software now. smiley
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« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2011, 11:42:45 AM »

(BTW- I abhor the term collateral damage.  It's a euphemism used to cover up the fact that this damage takes its toll in lives.  If you're going to do the act, at least look it in the eye when you do so.)

Agreed! Enough with the Politically "Correct" attempts at watering down anything that might be perceived as difficult. Stand up and face what it really is in truth ... Or don't do it at all. We as a species would do well to get back to straighter talk and thicker hides. Then much of the foolishness would end.
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wraith808
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« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2011, 12:21:07 PM »

I see it as boiling down to killing is killing.

The only question then is, are you willing to commit "evil"?

Agreed that killing is killing.  Not so clearcut on whether killing in all cases is "evil"- at least IMO.
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« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2011, 12:40:15 PM »

Quote
We as a species would do well to get back to straighter talk..
Agreed.

It's hard enough to balance the ethics of all this without having to wade through the miles of bullshit that gets fed to us.

You don't have to watch too many documentaries about Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch to know not to take at face value when you are told that some women and children were shot because they were being used as human shields, or to know that Bin Laden was not going to be captured alive, or to know that the military didn't bury Bin Laden at sea in order to "respect his religion".

That's not to say at all that killing him wasn't the right thing to do -- on balance my personal opinion was that it was.  It's just that i'd be a lot more at peace with it if we also stopped lying to ourselves, stopped torturing people (while pretending we don't), and stopped pretending that america was attacked because "they hate our freedoms".

I just think this world would be a much better place if we didn't willingly drown ourselves in so much propaganda and false history.
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nudone
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« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2011, 12:59:42 PM »

heheh, "they hate our freedoms"; i've not heard that one before.
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« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2011, 01:07:27 PM »

heheh, "they hate our freedoms"; i've not heard that one before.

It seems to me that in a lot of cases, it just boils down to "they hate..." Sad
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wraith808
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« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2011, 01:29:44 PM »

heheh, "they hate our freedoms"; i've not heard that one before.

It seems to me that in a lot of cases, it just boils down to "they hate..." Sad

Even sadder though, is that a lot of it boils down to "'we' hate..." Sad
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Renegade
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« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2011, 01:36:02 PM »

Even sadder though, is that a lot of it boils down to "'we' hate..." Sad

True enough.
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« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2011, 01:48:40 PM »

heheh, "they hate our freedoms"; i've not heard that one before.

It seems to me that in a lot of cases, it just boils down to "they hate..." Sad

Even sadder though, is that a lot of it boils down to "'we' hate..." Sad

But do "we" really?

If a child sees a spider, screams for help, and an adult comes in and "helps" by killing the spider. The child then responds by saying hooray, thanks for saving me from the spider.

Now did the child actually hate the spider? Or were they just afraid of it?

The two terms get used interchangably quite often. Most adults will tell you they hate spiders...When they really mean they're afraid of them.
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wraith808
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« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2011, 02:43:05 PM »

Through the words of a muppet comes the truth...

"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

Does it really matter in what stage you find yourself?  That's a spiraling mode of thinking.  And all of it, IMO, comes from selfishness, but that's a different discussion.
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« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2011, 03:12:42 PM »

Through the words of a muppet comes the truth...

"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

Does it really matter in what stage you find yourself?  That's a spiraling mode of thinking.

A Star Wars quote? Seriously?

Just because something can spiral, does not automatically dictate that it will/must spiral into the eternal abyss (or the dark side if you like... smiley). Because it is also "true", that only a fool has no fear.
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