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England Is Grinding To A Halt.
Stoic Joker:
Sure, we have the Prius, but it's mostly a gimmick. They put that out there for the people who make an extra effort to save the environment.-superboyac (March 11, 2011, 01:12 PM)
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Don't you mean it's for people that want to make a show of pretending to save the environment?
JavaJones:
I think you're getting my comments about hydrogen wrong. I'm all for alternative energy sources, especially *truly renewable* and *primary* sources of energy. When I say "primary sources" what I mean are sources where you are directly converting an environmental resource (wind, sun, even coal) into energy that is then *directly* used. The problem with hydrogen as a "fuel source" is it is *not* readily available in a directly extractable form which can then be used directly as energy. As it stands now it is an *intermediary* or "secondary" energy source, in other words you have to produce energy in the first place *to* produce hydrogen which you then use to fuel something. That introduces inefficiencies in the process, inefficiencies that are potentially unnecessary. Instead of having a hydrogen powered car (burning hydrogen) or even a hydrogen fuel cell car, instead use a pure electric car with modern battery technology. The Nissan Leaf is one example and it does fine for mileage and speed (for example it would handle my daily ~2hr, 90 miles total commute).
On the subject of "more difficult oil extraction is not my problem", you have to keep in mind that more difficult extraction generally also means more damaging to the environment, e.g. the reason the "Deep Water Horizon" spill was so bad and went on so long is it was drilled in *deep water*, which meant enormous pressures at the depth of the water where the entry was made, and hence much more difficult to repair, and also higher oil outflow rate. Another example is what is necessary to extract oil from "oil sands": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_sands#Environmental_issues
So I really don't think you can just say "it's not my problem that fuel extraction gets more difficult", because you can't trust corporations to appropriately balance the issues in play. They generally have one consideration and that's profit. Environmental impact will be considered only in so far as it impacts their bottom line and their legislative burden. Yet environmental impacts do effect *you* and *me*. So leaving it to corporations to figure out is in my opinion not smart.
- Oshyan
Stoic Joker:
I think you're getting my comments about hydrogen wrong. I'm all for alternative energy sources, especially *truly renewable* and *primary* sources of energy. When I say "primary sources" what I mean are sources where you are directly converting an environmental resource (wind, sun, even coal) into energy that is then *directly* used.-JavaJones (March 11, 2011, 01:29 PM)
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All of which suck in the readily accessible department. Wind isn't exactly a constant, sun is only there for half the day, and coal is just too heavy to lug around. But all of these are good for making more portable fuels. Oh, and you missed water (hydro-electric damns anyone)
The problem with hydrogen as a "fuel source" is it is *not* readily available in a directly extractable form which can then be used directly as energy. As it stands now it is an *intermediary* or "secondary" energy source, in other words you have to produce energy in the first place *to* produce hydrogen which you then use to fuel something.-JavaJones (March 11, 2011, 01:29 PM)
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You see, I'm okay with that. If it's done properly, it creates jobs and utilizes materials that can't be run out of (hydroged<->water).
That introduces inefficiencies in the process, inefficiencies that are potentially unnecessary. Instead of having a hydrogen powered car (burning hydrogen) or even a hydrogen fuel cell car, instead use a pure electric car with modern battery technology. The Nissan Leaf is one example and it does fine for mileage and speed (for example it would handle my daily ~2hr, 90 miles total commute).-JavaJones (March 11, 2011, 01:29 PM)
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Okay, and the electricity to recharge the grossly underpowered vehicle comes from?
On the subject of "more difficult oil extraction is not my problem", you have to keep in mind that more difficult extraction generally also means more damaging to the environment, e.g. the reason the "Deep Water Horizon" spill was so bad and went on so long is it was drilled in *deep water*, which meant enormous pressures at the depth of the water where the entry was made, and hence much more difficult to repair, and also higher oil outflow rate. Another example is what is necessary to extract oil from "oil sands": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_sands#Environmental_issues-JavaJones (March 11, 2011, 01:29 PM)
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Um... no. The reason the oil is more difficult to extract, is because of the environmental safety constraints. (Note: I live in Florida...)
That whole fiasco was caused by (once-again-from-the-top-of-the-thread) greed.
- Oshyan
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tomos:
Sure, we have the Prius, but it's mostly a gimmick. They put that out there for the people who make an extra effort to save the environment.-superboyac (March 11, 2011, 01:12 PM)
--- End quote ---
Don't you mean it's for people that want to make a show of pretending to save the environment?
-Stoic Joker (March 11, 2011, 01:18 PM)
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I've never even heard of them before, but at 70+ miles per gallon according to wikipedia, and petrol being about 6 euro per gallon here, I'd be willing to make some sacrafices (are they really that slow to take off though lol)
Stoic Joker:
Sure, we have the Prius, but it's mostly a gimmick. They put that out there for the people who make an extra effort to save the environment.-superboyac (March 11, 2011, 01:12 PM)
--- End quote ---
Don't you mean it's for people that want to make a show of pretending to save the environment?
-Stoic Joker (March 11, 2011, 01:18 PM)
--- End quote ---
I've never even heard of them before, but at 70+ miles per gallon according to wikipedia, and petrol being about 6 euro per gallon here, I'd be willing to make some sacrafices (are they really that slow to take off though lol)
-tomos (March 11, 2011, 02:25 PM)
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Well... In a drag race between a Toyota Prius, and a 90 year old woman on a tricycle ... My money is on Granny all day long. ;)
Oh and 70+ mpg... Ha! not on this side of a laboratory. Try to get through town in a hurry and that thing will hit the 20s in a flash.
TopGear did a brisk driving gas milage test between a Prius and a 500HP BMW M5. The Prius Lost by 3 miles per gallon.
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