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Author Topic: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder  (Read 11111 times)

mouser

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New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« on: February 01, 2011, 09:48:25 AM »
I'm a long time use of Borland's C++ Builder (formerly Borland, then CodeGear, now Embarcadero).  It's basically a C++ development tool for Microsoft Windows, that has a large number of component-based libraries and GUI widgets.  The components are shared with the more well known Delphi RAD tool (Pascal based), that has been popular among indie developers.

Borland, then CodeGear, now Embarcadero, have gone through some turbulent times.. For many of us who grew up coding during the original IBM PC days, Borland Turbo C/C++/Pascal were like gifts from the Gods.

With the future of Embarcadero and C++ Builder/Delphi still in some doubt, the pricing of the standard editions made it nearly impossible for indie developers to continue using these tools.

  • This weekend the company announced new "Starter" editions of C++ Builder and Delphi, priced at about $200.

The idea of the starter editions is that you can use them commercially, but only if you are doing a small volume of sales (I think under $1000 a year); there are just a few other restrictions (you can't have both Delphi and C++ Builder starter editions installed at the same time), but unlike their previous "turbo" edition incarnations, these are the full tools and you can install 3rd party component libraries into them -- of which their are thousands of great ones.

This seems to me a reasonable price for a very powerful tool.

Many of my larger applications are coded in C++ Builder because it let's me design elaborate GUI interfaces quickly and painlessly.  Even as just a prototyping tool I think it's worth the money.  I'm still unsure about it's future, so I wouldn't recommend it as a path for coders looking to choose a path for future development and employment.

But if you are looking to do some hobbyist programming on windows, these are absolutely fantastic tools to play with.  It's without a doubt one of the fastest ways to develop full-featured windows applications, and the free 3rd party visual components available for it are outstanding.

Quote
We think an indie license is a better alternative to the traditional non-commercial license. We want to provide our latest tools for both hobby use and for developers getting started. Offering a non-commercial license would allow us to offer lower cost editions. However, a non-commercial license generally prevents a developer from earning money selling goods or services based on their work unless the developer first purchases a commercial license. This can be problematic for a developer who is not yet earning income from their work. An Indie style license allows a developer to jumpstart their career, business, or education without a significant monetary investment up-front. We want to help developers get started, and only when the developer generates revenues of US $1,000 do we require a full commercial license.


mahesh2k

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2011, 10:25:26 AM »
Quote
but only if you are doing a small volume of sales (I think under $1000 a year)

That's way too low. Why not they just release it under GPL like trolltech ?

timns

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2011, 11:01:03 AM »
Sure, you can borrow all my expensive woodworking tools to make your kids a treehouse, but if you then take all those same tools and go out and build a house upon which you make a fat profit, well...

f0dder

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2011, 05:43:39 AM »
  • This weekend the company announced new "Starter" editions of C++ Builder and Delphi, priced at about $200.
...or you could get the (IMHO superior) Express editions of Visual C++ and C# instead, for free. Hard decision, hard decision.
- carpe noctem

Stoic Joker

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2011, 07:10:53 AM »
  • This weekend the company announced new "Starter" editions of C++ Builder and Delphi, priced at about $200.
...or you could get the (IMHO superior) Express editions of Visual C++ and C# instead, for free. Hard decision, hard decision.

I made that switch years ago (I really just wanted smaller code), and have never regretted it.

wraith808

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2011, 12:41:07 PM »
  • This weekend the company announced new "Starter" editions of C++ Builder and Delphi, priced at about $200.
...or you could get the (IMHO superior) Express editions of Visual C++ and C# instead, for free. Hard decision, hard decision.

I don't think superior- just different.  I too made the switch (for the major reason that Borland/Inprise had no marketing saavy and made some bad decisions, so I could see the writing on the wall... and Embarcadero doesn't seem much better), and haven't looked back.  But the products themselves as development environments were way ahead of their time.  They just didn't take advantage of it.  The big advantage that you'll get on the Embarcadero products over the Express products is the fact that there aren't the inbuilt limitations that come with using the Express products.  That's a big plus... potentially worth the expenditure.

fenixproductions

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2011, 12:56:38 PM »
Hard decision, hard decision.
Not for me. It was one of the happiest days for me to ditch Delphi.

On the other hand: does Delphi have this?

image.PNG

wraith808

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2011, 02:49:35 PM »
^ I think that was sarcasm ;D (Wow... two threads to point that out... LOL)

marcdw

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2011, 06:17:59 PM »
Note also the upgrade pricing at $150. Quite liberal I must say.

Quote
Delphi XE Starter and C++Builder XE Starter

Delphi XE and C++Builder XE Starter upgrade/competitive upgrade pricing is available to owners of any other IDE or software development tool including earlier versions of Delphi, C++Builder, Turbo Delphi, Turbo C++, Turbo Pascal or any other paid or free IDE from any other vendor (such as Visual Studio Express Editions, Lazarus, Eclipse, and others).


worstje

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2011, 06:28:04 PM »
Hmm, I have Delphi 5 lying around somewhere still. Can't recall where tho, and even if I did I kinda think Delphi went down the drain in the last few years. They should have gone with free releases and stuck to x86/x64 development rather than jump the .NET-wagon. :(

I loved the fact the guides and documentation I got with it was like 1,000 pages long. Documentation seems to suck nowadays imo. :(
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 06:30:46 PM by worstje »

Renegade

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2011, 07:54:35 AM »
While I hated Pascal 20 years ago, I still feel sad to see Delphi dying a slow death.

A friend of mine programmed the Turbo Pascal compiler many many years ago back in the floppy disk shareware days. I sometimes wonder what he thinks about the current state of Pascal/Delphi.

It would be nice to see some life breathed into Delphi/C++ Builder.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Ath

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2011, 08:05:22 AM »
It would be nice to see some life breathed into Delphi/C++ Builder.

I agree that would be nice, been using Borland stuff for 25+ years also (had a turbopascal on MS-DOS back then), but I'm afraid that this action of Embarcadero isn't going to improve on that...

app103

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2011, 08:17:59 AM »
I had originally found out about this "deal" from Zarko Gajic's post on Facebook (he's the author behind delphi.about.com)

I'll paste here what I had to say there:

Quote
While this is nice, it's not enough.

The only reason why I was ever able to code anything in Delphi was because there was a free personal edition available when I started learning how to code.

I started out with D6 Personal in one window and delphi.about.com in another. I am very grateful for both of them. Delphi is a marvelous starter language that one won't necessarily ever outgrow. It's a language that can last you a lifetime.

You are not going to get beginners to take a chance on Delphi unless they can do it without risk. They can do that with Visual Studio, but they can't with Delphi.

I feel this is important to the ultimate survival of Delphi. Where are the Delphi coders of tomorrow going to come from when Embarcadero isn't making it easy for them to get started, like Borland did? No teenager in his right mind would ever think of paying that kind of money to get started on a hobby that could lead to a career or could end up abandoned next year.

mouser

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2011, 08:28:56 AM »
I can't really disagree with most of the sentiment, except that it seems to me completely reasonable to charge $200 for a development tool for people making $1000 a year from commercial software.

What I would like to see though is for them to make it completely free (or super cheap, say $29) for people not making software to sell.

I feel for them -- they are having a hard time finding their niche.. You do have to wonder what the future will hold for the Delphi/C++Builder line.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 08:33:14 AM by mouser »

Stoic Joker

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2011, 09:03:09 AM »
What I would like to see though is for them to make it completely free (or super cheap, say $29) for people not making software to sell.

My first compiler/IDE was Borland's C++ v4.52 which I purchased at Staples for $10. Sometime after that a friend gave me a copy of BC Builder (the first one I think), and I pirated a copy of BC Builder 3 but it really didn't give me what I was after...results wise - smallest .exe I could create and run portably was like 500+k. ...Which is why I jumped ship in favor of MSVC++.

Anyhow, point being, price is definitely a factor...especially if one is not entirely committed (which I wasn't back then).

Renegade

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2011, 09:31:04 AM »
I like "community editions". Free for non-commercial use or single developers, minimal fees for small developers ($50~$1000 depending on the product), etc.

Well, we'll see.
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Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

wraith808

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2011, 12:00:35 PM »
I like "community editions". Free for non-commercial use or single developers, minimal fees for small developers ($50~$1000 depending on the product), etc.

Well, we'll see.

^ This +1.  It's all in the licensing.  You don't sell anything (hobbyist or Open Source projects), you don't pay anything.  If you sell anything, you upgrade to the personal edition.

app103

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2011, 03:35:33 PM »
^ This +1.  It's all in the licensing.  You don't sell anything (hobbyist or Open Source projects), you don't pay anything.  If you sell anything, you upgrade to the personal edition.

The personal editions that Borland used to release were free but the licensing stated it could not be used to produce commercial software. Anything released that was built with them had to be freeware. (they also had some limitations, like no database related components were included).

The community editions were intended for producing open source software, only. (C++ Builder X comes to mind)

MilesAhead

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2011, 04:19:44 PM »
The component sharing was what made the old Delphi(pre .NET) fun. You could produce stand-alone exe programs for Windows without the messy message handler switch statement.  Install in your IDE and drag & drop onto a form.

Searching through the copy for this offering I don't even see the phrase "64 bit" anywhere.  PCs < $500 are coming with 6 GB ram and 64 bit Windows. Time to get with the 21st Century here!

What I'd like to see is a nice sophisticated free resource editor. I don't mind filling in the message handling statements later.  This way you could have RAD prototyping without that spaghetti vc++ code.  Just do Win32 native for nice small apps.  The VC++ 2010 even tells you how to add the 64 bit support for free.  Fairly painless.

If I'm going to do 32 bit exes then I might as well just reinstall Delphi 5 Pro. Back then you could back into the Pro version for reasonable money. I remember I bought the 1.0 standard version of C# for $60 and that qualified me for a competitive upgrade to get Delphi 5 Pro for $200 or $239.. something like that.

Now they want you to make less than a grand a year... how you supposed to buy anything from them? Indentured servitude?  Sheesh!!

Is MS still propping them up? I don't see how they're making a profit with this mess.


wraith808

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2011, 05:04:45 PM »
I'm pretty sure Embarcadero has no ties to MS.  They're just a company that made an investment in purchasing the compilers from Borland/Inprise.  And their marketing sucks just as much as before, from what I've seen.

^ This +1.  It's all in the licensing.  You don't sell anything (hobbyist or Open Source projects), you don't pay anything.  If you sell anything, you upgrade to the personal edition.

The personal editions that Borland used to release were free but the licensing stated it could not be used to produce commercial software. Anything released that was built with them had to be freeware. (they also had some limitations, like no database related components were included).

The community editions were intended for producing open source software, only. (C++ Builder X comes to mind)

That's what I meant... I mixed up personal with their new 'starter' in my statement.

fenixproductions

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2011, 10:48:36 PM »
I wonder is this sale the part of some bigger plan for resurrecting whole IDE or just last effort before sinking. Embarcadero has been sleeping for a long time and some developers moved on to VS or Lazarus. How is it supposed to get them back?

Well, even Christian Ghisler is rewriting Total Commander for Lazarus.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 10:51:20 PM by fenixproductions »

wraith808

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Re: New (Feb 1 2011) "Starter" Editions of Delphi and C++ Builder
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2011, 11:29:29 PM »
I wonder is this sale the part of some bigger plan for resurrecting whole IDE or just last effort before sinking. Embarcadero has been sleeping for a long time and some developers moved on to VS or Lazarus. How is it supposed to get them back?

Well, even Christian Ghisler is rewriting Total Commander for Lazarus.

I don't think they're anywhere near sinking.  There are still quite a few entrenched areas that just I know of with huge contracts, that are in government agencies, which aren't known for change.  It's just hard for individual developers to make a living off of it, since the places that I know that are entrenched are the types of places where people stay forever.

And it's not really a "sale" so much as another SKU in a different vertical- it would seem that they are trying to reach out to the developers they eschewed with the destruction of the turbo editions.