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Author Topic: Why does the Mayan calendar end on....?  (Read 5522 times)
CodeTRUCKER
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« on: January 31, 2011, 09:25:18 AM »

Today, I spent roughly five hours with my wife and children discussing the hype and potential accuracy of the Mayan calendar as a harbinger to the end of future existence.  I/we have done no exhaustive research on the Mayans, their calendar or the congruency of 12-21-2012, but we haven't been living in a cave either.

My primary and salient bullet of our discussion's agenda was not so much concerned about whether 2012 will be the last year of the Gregorian calendar nor was it concerned about the harmony of the respective calendars.  No, my interest was in "why" the Mayan calendar ended?   Given, AFAIK there are no Mayans left today that can offer an authoritative explanation on this conundrum, we are left to our own devices.  As I pondered and we discussed this, three possibilities emerged.  The Mayan author(s) of their calendar...
  • ...chose an arbitrary date, say 5,000 "years" and set it at the end of the calendar, perhaps just for the aesthetics of symmetry. Who knows?
  • ...created some arbitrary and inconceivable date "out there" and then set all the particulars at various intervals to fit within that framework.
  • ...really *knew* something of a cause-and-effect sequence of events now lost to obscurity.


Since the first two bullets are arbitrary, seemingly unconcerned with the cessation of existence, we can focus on the final point.  Maybe the present and highly publicized time chart for the Maya was not their first calendar?  Perhaps the Maya have had numerous calendars over the millenia and it will be time to make the next one commencing on the now infamous date?  Occam's Razor would certainly support this supposition, but let's go to the playground of our minds and examine other possibilities.  Shall we?

Assuming the Gregorian reference of December 21st of Two-Thousand-Twelve does; indeed, equate to the last day of the Mayan calendar, was there a concrete requirement to end their calendar?  Was it motivated by the Maya institutions of religion, science or just their commerce?  Considering the Maya existed in latitudes significantly south of the known world of scientific authority in Europe and the UK, is it possible Mayan astronomers knew something the "white men" did not?  

Let's consider these items... the elevation of Mayan "observatories," clear mountain air and the lack of industrialism would have offered the pre-historic and mid-historic indian stargazers a view of the heavens Spaniards, Portuguese, Europeans, Brits, Scots and Irish astronomers would have coveted, if known.  Now couple the advantages of Mayan vistas with the permanence of their culture.  Add to this the fact the Maya had written records and you have a potent mix for assimilating and dispensing cumulative astronomical, et.al., knowledge for thousands upon thousands of generations.  Is it possible the Maya calendar-makers were given the "heads-up" by these early astronomers?

At this point, I would like to offer this... technological advancement does not necessarily equate to intelligence.  Just because the Maya may not have had the "benefits" of industrial technological "progress" does not mean they were morons.  To the contrary, their culture did have technological "progress," but not the same as those aforementioned.

Given the previous commentary, I would like to offer a "possibility" for discussion.  Actually, this is only one scenario.  I suppose there are countless other possibilities, but I will prime the pump with this particular sequence which does not violate any of the above facts and suppositions.  For lack of a better moniker, let's call it the "Dark Planet."

Since almost all of scientific "advancement" was ensconced in the northern hemisphere, observations of the night sky was biased north of the celestial equator.  Simply put, not many eyes observed the Crux or any other southern constellation except inhabitants in the southern latitudes.  It should also be noted that even over the course of the year the telescopes in the north would never have witnessed southern occurrences.  What if the Mayan astronomers witnessed the rapid passing of the "Dark Planet" only in the night sky on a certain date at a certain time of the year, say every 327 years (yes, this is arbitrary, but stay with me).  Further, what if the Mayan architects and engineers interpolated certain triangulations and realized that in every cycle of passing the "Dark Planet" was getting closer and closer to a collision with our own Terra Firma?  Could it be the Mayan calendar ends because it coincides with the last day of the last 327 year cycle of the "Dark Planet's" orbit?  

If this was/is true, no astronomer in the north would have witnessed the singular night's apparition swiftly emerging and then disappearing into unknown realms of blackness.  If this was the last cycle (for the sake of argument), it was the last appearance and would have occurred on Saturday, December 21, 1685.   Aside from some early and crude telescopes, there was no technology in the seventeenth century that would have been capable of disclosing this "Dark Planet" to the scrutiny of "modern" scientists.  Given, these telescopes would have been in the north, the chance of discovery was basically null.

I admit this is somewhat whimsical (fun) and a touch macabre, but can anyone disprove my "theory" of the "Dark Planet?"  No, no one can or could.  If I was to offer this hypothesis to the readers of American Scientific it could not be discounted or disproved.  They might attack the "messenger" to discredit the author and discount the report, but it would be impossible to attack the "message."  That's the funny thing about reality... you can only prove what you do, in fact, know.  You can never disprove what you don't know.   You can make some reasonably educated guesses about the unknown based on the known, but you will never be able to invalidate any scenario embedded in the unknown.

In closing, the above made for a lively debate in our home and I saw a lot of "light bulbs" turn on above some wee heads.  In truth, I do not know if the "Dark Planet" is relentlessly pursuing its malevolent errand.  What I do know from scientific report is the Mayan calendar ends and there is a reason!  What I don't know is "why?"  

Any thoughts?

 ~CT
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 09:27:39 AM by CodeTRUCKER » Logged

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Eóin
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« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2011, 09:56:59 AM »

Well... I don't know much about Mayan math, science and astronomy knowledge. But I'm sure there are enough records out there. Chances are they could prove that Mayans didn't know enough about the movement of celestial bodies to be able to predict the future date of a collision. That's one way to disprove the "Dark Planet" theory.
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« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2011, 11:09:15 AM »

Hi Eóin,

Please accept my rebuttal as friendly "sparring."  That's the way I received your comments!  Also, I am not interested in proving *my* point because I do not have a point to prove.  I am interested in keeping robust flow of validity.

Well... I don't know much about Mayan math, science and astronomy knowledge.
Excellent!  We share a common ignorance of the facts.

Quote
But I'm sure there are enough records out there.

I have to challenge statements like this in this context.  Ask yourself, how are you "sure?"  On what facts do you base your supposition?

Quote
Chances are they could prove that Mayans didn't know enough about the movement of celestial bodies to be able to predict the future date of a collision.
Since the concept of being "sure" there are "records" is previously held in question, it follows any proof by virtue of those records, can not be substantiated.  Also, it is very easy to chart the movement of stars and planets across the heavens.  Halley's comet was not accurately predicted by supercomputers and slide rules, but by observation of phenomenon and a modicum of consistent care in record keeping.

The prediction of a collision did not require extensive math.  Simple geometry, diligent observation and careful record keeping were all that was required.   Besides, if the celestial event occurred in the mid to deep southern celestial hemisphere, those in the northern latitudes would never have seen it, much less be able to scrutinize the ramifications.

By the "progressive" culture standards of the west, the Maya would be (and were) considered "primitive."   Unfortunately, this necessitates a bias of demotion of the Maya's abilities and a complimentary biased promotion of the abilities of western civilization.  This dichotomy is ingrained in the western mind, but that does not validate its authority.

Quote
That's one way to disprove the "Dark Planet" theory.
Unfortunately, neither you nor I, as the author, can disprove the "Dark Planet" theory.  Have you ever seen the "Dark Planet?"  I haven't and as the author of this "theory," I can denounce it and state unequivocally it was an invention of my imagination, but I can't prove its non-existence or invalidity.

OK, it appears you lost that round, but I would be happy to continue an amiable discourse.  smiley

Lastly, keep in mind the Mayan calendar does reach an ending.  The purpose of this thread and my original post is to explore all the possibilities of "why?" it ends.
 
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Truth, unlike opinion, tradition, etc. will always be able to stand on its own.  Truth is not a static, but a living entity and will perpetually impart life; therefore, any "truth" that does not or can not impart life can not be Truth.

I am persuaded the only reason bad men have succeeded is not because good men have done nothing, but that good men did not do enough.

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« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2011, 11:22:30 AM »

I'm partial to the "time to make a new calendar" theory.
From what I've gathered, the Maya were accomplished enough astronomers that they could observe, calculate and therefore predict the cycles of the spheres accurately.
I assume the cycles don't repeat in some endless looping clockwork, so there are only so many celestial wanderings that can be recorded on one stele of moon phases and googly monsters.
Therefore, time to make a new calendar where the old one left off.



As for the "Dark Planet" theory, you'd think the Maya would have written down such an important detail somewhere as the reason for ending the calendar when they did, no?
So far as I'm able to discover, the calendar simply ends; no associated cataclysm or doomsday prophecy (beyond the ENDLESS speculation being done by the New Age crowd).
In fact, in all the research I've done, I can find no associated archaeological record or discovery in any meso-american culture in which they recorded that not only does the calendar end, but it will end with a bang.

I believe the only reason this subject is even being discussed is that:
(1) It is a concrete date.
No other civilization lost to the sands of time has given so unambiguous a date for any event, no matter how mundane.
(2) The date in question is "at our doorstep", so to speak.
Whether we take any stock in it or not, it is something happening in our very lifetime, so it enters into our culture and our collective conversation whether we like it our not simply by virtue of the fact that it is NOW.

Personally, I like the Bible's proclamation that "no man will know the day or the hour", so basically setting a date is kinda pointless.

P.S. Here's an easy read on Mayan math and date reckoning:
http://www.buriedmirror.com/maya-calendar.htm
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« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2011, 11:27:06 AM »

Hm. I can only say that calendar in my kitchen ends on 31st of December, 2011. And that's before Mayan Sad
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« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2011, 11:30:51 AM »

The one on my computer ends 31st December 2099...does that mean if the mayans are wrong, no1 will see 2100? I think not!
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« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2011, 11:37:02 AM »

Having a morbid fascination with all things apocalyptic, I cannot resist any chance to quip one liners regarding the Mayans contribution to the topic. - The anniversary->cake bit I just can't let go...the timing is perfect and it is (to me at least) hysterically funny.

Throughout history every crackpot with a following has at some point taken a stab at the when will the world end ...So far none of them have been right. But the law of averages dictates that eventually one of them will at least be close... (hehe)

@CT - Man I gotta tell you, I love your take on this. The Dark Planet thing is positively brilliant! But I gotta go with bullet 1's symmetry vote. Maybe just because I'm tired of worrying about the world ending (got enough of that crap when I ws growing up).
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« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2011, 11:53:35 AM »

@ Edvard

Hahaha!  Your cartoon was somewhere between bullet #1 and #2.  I really enjoyed it! 

I get what you were saying about an event of world-ending proportions would have garnered at least an honorable mention.  The only pertinent question I would venture is would cataclysmic events be highlighted if the Maya were subscribers to a fatalistic view?  If fate was the final authority in their day to day lives, an event such as a "Dark Planet" would simply be accepted, if not welcomed.  What do you think?

As far as the "no one knows the day or the hour," the Bible is not recognized as a universal standard.  Besides, there is surrounding context where these words are found which brings applicability into question, IMO.

Thanks for the quasi "Mayan Calendar Math for Dummies" type link.  I need it!  smiley
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Truth, unlike opinion, tradition, etc. will always be able to stand on its own.  Truth is not a static, but a living entity and will perpetually impart life; therefore, any "truth" that does not or can not impart life can not be Truth.

I am persuaded the only reason bad men have succeeded is not because good men have done nothing, but that good men did not do enough.

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« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2011, 12:03:38 PM »

Hm. I can only say that calendar in my kitchen ends on 31st of December, 2011. And that's before Mayan Sad

Ha!  This makes me wonder (given all the hype) if your next years calendar will show December 21, 2012 as the last day with a note that says in small print at bottom...

"In case the world does not end, please attach the enclosed addendum of December 22 thru 31 here.  Please note the addendum was shipped in the original shipping envelope.  If you have lost your addendum, don't bother contacting us for replacements since you would need to allow six to eight weeks to receive the replacement."
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I applaud those that refuse to commit "intellectual suicide."

Truth, unlike opinion, tradition, etc. will always be able to stand on its own.  Truth is not a static, but a living entity and will perpetually impart life; therefore, any "truth" that does not or can not impart life can not be Truth.

I am persuaded the only reason bad men have succeeded is not because good men have done nothing, but that good men did not do enough.

An Open Letter to My Friends


Notice: - Unless stated otherwise, I receive no compensation for anything I post here.
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« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2011, 12:04:59 PM »

I get what you were saying about an event of world-ending proportions would have garnered at least an honorable mention.

Which it very well may have, but as is the habit of the western bias you mentioned earlier...Any information deemed "inconvenient" is quickly "lost"/disposed of...
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« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2011, 12:07:09 PM »

The one on my computer ends 31st December 2099...does that mean if the mayans are wrong, no1 will see 2100? I think not!

That may be true, but since I'm in my 50's, I'm pretty confident I won't see 2099, much less 2100!  cheesy
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I applaud those that refuse to commit "intellectual suicide."

Truth, unlike opinion, tradition, etc. will always be able to stand on its own.  Truth is not a static, but a living entity and will perpetually impart life; therefore, any "truth" that does not or can not impart life can not be Truth.

I am persuaded the only reason bad men have succeeded is not because good men have done nothing, but that good men did not do enough.

An Open Letter to My Friends


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« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2011, 12:11:33 PM »

The calendar doesn't "end" any more than the one hanging on your wall does on December 31st. It's just the beginning of a new cycle, end of story. It's happened before in recorded history several times (notice: no cataclysms those times) and it will happen again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w...Mayan_calendar#Long_Count
http://www.nasa.gov/topic.../earth/features/2012.html

Not to mention that the date from the Mayan calendar may not be properly correlated with our (Gregorian) calendar anyway: http://www.livescience.co...ated-calendar-101018.html

- Oshyan
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« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2011, 12:22:02 PM »

@Everyone - Try to keep this thread on the topic of "Why did the Mayan calendar end?"  I really am very interested in serious commentary along with the fun.  While I am not particularly worried about my "Dark Planet" fiction, I understand the Maya to have been a culture that were technologically advanced in their sphere, but pre-dated even the time of Jesus by a factor of two.  Why would a race that had so much going for it end their calendar?   Like the king, Mongkut (Yul Brynner) lamented... "Is a puzzlement!"  

@SJ - Thanks for the flowers, I'm glad you enjoyed it!   Keep in mind it is only my imagination which connected the dots I laid out and the dots are not numbered.  Actually, I really was in the dark, but I did have to plan-it.
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I applaud those that refuse to commit "intellectual suicide."

Truth, unlike opinion, tradition, etc. will always be able to stand on its own.  Truth is not a static, but a living entity and will perpetually impart life; therefore, any "truth" that does not or can not impart life can not be Truth.

I am persuaded the only reason bad men have succeeded is not because good men have done nothing, but that good men did not do enough.

An Open Letter to My Friends


Notice: - Unless stated otherwise, I receive no compensation for anything I post here.
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« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2011, 12:41:03 PM »

Please accept my rebuttal as friendly "sparring."  That's the way I received your comments! 

Me too smiley

When it comes to predicting a collision between planets, comets, etc, I do believe the math is extremely complicated. Predicting planet movements under the assumption for circular orbits (be they around the sun or earth) is one thing, but trying to predict the future path of a comet with potential to collide with the earth requires an awful lot of background knowledge together with extremely accurate observations..

So my suggestion for a disproof is that a) If records of the Mayans math and science levels are sufficiently comprehensive, and b) If they show that the Mayans did not have this necessary background knowledge - Then one could say with significant confidence that the Mayan calendar ending is not based an an accurate prediction of an impending collision.

Two big If's I know, but I just pointing out one way in which the Dark Planet theory could very genuinely be disproved.

As for why does the Mayan calendar have an end, I'd guess just some random religious notion, or perhaps the prediction of a supposed mystic who was 'under the influence'.
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« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2011, 12:54:49 PM »

IIRC the Mayan calendar in question is spot on for current events like seasons and (winter/sumer) solstices ... So their "math" does have established street cred...
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« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2011, 01:51:10 PM »

@ Edvard

Hahaha!  Your cartoon was somewhere between bullet #1 and #2.  I really enjoyed it!  

Glad to help  Thmbsup

Quote
I get what you were saying about an event of world-ending proportions would have garnered at least an honorable mention.  The only pertinent question I would venture is would cataclysmic events be highlighted if the Maya were subscribers to a fatalistic view?  If fate was the final authority in their day to day lives, an event such as a "Dark Planet" would simply be accepted, if not welcomed.  What do you think?

Perhaps, but I still think it would be mentioned.
If not in a "doomsday" context, then at least "the day we turn out the lights and take a good, long nap".

Quote
As far as the "no one knows the day or the hour," the Bible is not recognized as a universal standard.  Besides, there is surrounding context where these words are found which brings applicability into question, IMO.

Yes, I'm well aware of all your points.
My point was that as time marches on, the doomsday prophets have come and gone along with their "day of reckoning", and whether in context or no, the quote consistently rings true in that sense.

Quote
Thanks for the quasi "Mayan Calendar Math for Dummies" type link.  I need it!  smiley

Me too.
Thinking in base 20/13 is not my forte'.
Then again, neither is base 16, which is what all our fancy computator devices run on.
That and magic smoke...

IIRC the Mayan calendar in question is spot on for current events like seasons and (winter/sumer) solstices ... So their "math" does have established street cred...

Yes, it still is useful for that, but that obviates the point; we're going to need a new one starting with December 22, 2012.
Left to our modern culture, it'll probably be a swimsuit edition... >_<
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2011, 02:29:16 PM »

Erm, did no one see my post showing that the Mayan calendar is no more "ending" in 2012 than our own calendars end at the end of our year (or at the end of 100 years, or at the end of the date range current computers can show)? The entire basis for the question is spurious, it's like asking "Why is the moon made of cheese?" when in fact the moon is not made of cheese. cheesy

As for Mayan predictive ability, while it's possible they had a thorough understanding of orbital mechanics, an ability to predict seasons is certainly no proof of that; seasonal predictions are relatively trivial compared to orbital mechanics, some problems of which we haven't adequately solved to this day. Even assuming advanced orbital mechanics knowledge they would also have needed telescopes at the least to see any celestial body that we in modern times haven't noticed ourselves. Note that I leave open the possibility that there are unknown objects out there close enough to hit us *and* on a periodic cycle, even though this is extremely unlikely unless the cycle was long enough to escape being recorded in modern history (the past 2000+ years), which would mean it was longer than the Mayan civilization's lifetime anyway and there would be no way for them to know it would return even if they saw it once. That's a whole lot of if's!

- Oshyan
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2011, 02:31:35 PM »

The calendar doesn't "end" any more than the one hanging on your wall does on December 31st. It's just the beginning of a new cycle, end of story. It's happened before in recorded history several times (notice: no cataclysms those times) and it will happen again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w...Mayan_calendar#Long_Count
http://www.nasa.gov/topic.../earth/features/2012.html
Oshyan,

Thanks for breathing what appears to be reality into this hype-laden subject.  I appreciate the links.

Quote
Not to mention that the date from the Mayan calendar may not be properly correlated with our (Gregorian) calendar anyway: http://www.livescience.co...ated-calendar-101018.html

- Oshyan

Yep, I was aware of that one.

I am not a conspiracy buff, but I have been in positions where what went to press was not the true reality.  My experiences have made me a bit hesitant to eliminate "hype" just because the "experts" say so.  I'll give two personal examples that I had a part in myself.  Whether you choose to accept what I relate as fact or fiction and the commensurate ramifications, you will have to judge for yourself.  I will simply state what I write is my own experience and it is fact.




FWIW - I am not an Art Bell/George Noory fan.  I can count the number of times I have listened to Coast to Coast on one hand and I can count the total number of times I have listened to those of that ilk on the other hand.

While I have no concern you are attempting to do a "cover up," the two factual and personal instances I have related above allow me to read the "experts" you cited with an open mind.  I recognize that if any of the potentially catastrophic happenings were real, we in the general public would be lied to in order to manipulate the population.  Remember the reality concerning a particular defoliant named, "Agent Orange?"  Consider how the "mad" Jewish "Zionists," as they were labeled by the Nazi dailies and periodicals, kept adding a lot of "hype" and sensationalism about "railroad stock cars," "ovens," "fire!" and "extermination."  I'm persuaded many Jews were cursed with constant remembrances of the "hype" they dismissed as not plausible.  Don't fall into the "yeah, but that was Hitler's boys" trap.  The point is the population of Europe to the tune of six million plus that were Jewish were lied to to serve the purposes of the government.  Given the intelligence quotient of the audience here, there is no need to expound further on this point.

Ask yourself, if a real cataclysm of any sort was impending, would the "experts" and government spokespersons tell us the truth? Food for thought, eh?

Thanks for the reply,
Calvin
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I am persuaded the only reason bad men have succeeded is not because good men have done nothing, but that good men did not do enough.

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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2011, 03:30:36 PM »

@CodeTRUCKER
I completely know what you mean in your spoilers!

The sad thing is: after the years you may start believing that all of that was in your head Sad

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CodeTRUCKER
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2011, 04:49:33 PM »

Erm, did no one see my post showing that the Mayan calendar is no more "ending" in 2012 than our own calendars end at the end of our year (or at the end of 100 years, or at the end of the date range current computers can show)? The entire basis for the question is spurious, it's like asking "Why is the moon made of cheese?" when in fact the moon is not made of cheese. cheesy
Yes, and I have offered a comprehensive reply.  smiley  

Before I proceed further, I need to state it is my understanding the Maya literature and records are not an open book, but is still very cryptic.  There are many gaps in the linguistic understanding.

The reply I spoke of speaks only on what *I* know, not what I don't know.  I will not rehash it here except to say...

1. Your position depends entirely on not what you know, but on what you are persuaded of in the integrity in what others profess to know.  If what you have offered in your links is; indeed, fact then it follows your position is valid.  Unfortunately, whether the sources are fact or fiction is not easily known, so we are left with opinion and preference.

2. There are far too many people stating "facts" as if they have personal participation in the subject when they are simply parroting what some "expert" said.  I am not denigrating every scholarly author or spokesperson, I am trying to point out that unless you *know* something by direct personal experience, you cannot say you know it with any degree of integrity.  You can say you believe it, have faith in the information, confidence in the author, but you cannot profess you know it if you do not.  Simple point, but boy, does it get lost in the hub-bub sometimes.  Again, I am not trying to scratch hash marks on my side of the board, but I am interested in keeping the debate on solid footing.

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...
Even assuming advanced orbital mechanics knowledge they would also have needed telescopes at the least to see any celestial body that we in modern times haven't noticed ourselves.
...
You make two assumptions here (I will use the "Dark Planet" here, but work with me)...

1. The Maya did not need telescopes to see the "Dark Planet" nor would you!  Here's why.  Have you ever been on mountaintops where the visible stars are so thick the entire sky looks like the Milky Way with a back light?  If you have, imagine how clear the view would be from the seat high atop a Mayan mountain top observatory?  I will not exceed the confines of reason in saying, if a planet-sized celestial object passed close enough between the observer and the stars, the astronomer need not "see" the object.  The disk of the object will hide the stars as it sweeps across the sky.  The observer would "see" circle of darkness eclipsing the stars behind it.  Again, not fracturing the fences of rational thought, if that instance was recorded along with its relative size every time it passed and with each passing the disk blocked more and more stars appearing to be faster and faster, would it require a degree in astrophysics to realize the object was either getting bigger or closer?  Obviously not.  Simple sequential comparison would unveil the already known truth.  The "primitive" astronomer would realize, if these phenomenon continue unchanged, the disk will consume all the stars and will be an ever greater threat of collision, depending on the mix of pure science, lore, religion, etc. which framed the astronomer's world view.

2. To assume the Mayan astronomers couldn't have seen something unless we have seen it is somewhat one-sided, isn't it?  I'll grant you there wouldn't be much modern science would not have discovered, but to say we have seen it all is stretching into the realms of opinion.

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Note that I leave open the possibility that there are unknown objects out there close enough to hit us *and* on a periodic cycle, even though this is extremely unlikely unless the cycle was long enough to escape being recorded in modern history (the past 2000+ years), which would mean it was longer than the Mayan civilization's lifetime anyway and there would be no way for them to know it would return even if they saw it once. That's a whole lot of if's!

- Oshyan

Again, you are stating the whole of the celestial sphere has been under scrutiny for the last two millennium.  I can't agree, given the overwhelming majority of "progressive" astronomy was stuck in the area surrounding the British Isles and Europe.  It was where civilization has been grounded for those two-thousand years.  Colleges and other centers of learning were a product of the maturing science.  Today, the population of professional terrestrially-bound observers is far more concentrated above the Equator than below.  I am persuaded the population ratio grows proportionally the further back you go within those 2,000 years.

One of those "ifs" that should be included must be the capability of the Maya to record due to their affinity to the written "word."  Perhaps the Maya were more community minded than ourselves and scribed data to serve generations they would never see?

In closing, I want to place my suppositions in a familiar context.  Not that you or the other readers have actually done this, but it should be within a context almost everyone can understand.

Imagine you are sitting comfortably in a large open area of solid ground.  It is very dark, pitch black even with only the glow of the city lights beyond the horizon giving a frame of context.  The vista in front of you is wide open and you are facing in the direction of the lighted horizon.  About 75 yards behind you is a huge line of hills, almost mountains.  The hill-mountain "range" stretches about a mile to your right, although you can't see that far.  Around the end of that "range" is a buddy of yours just enjoying the solitude.  The "range" stretches to your left to the horizon.  No stars are visible.

As you are sitting enjoying the way the softness of the city glow plays against the horizon, you detect a rapid object move across the horizon, blocking out the luminescence behind it.  It is gone as quickly as it came.  You thought it was something of note so you record the time/date/size, but you take a guess at the speed since you did not time it.  (I'm sure you can tell where I'm going with this, eh?).

You settle in to enjoy the the aviance of the moment and you detect the same vehicle(?) enters the scene, but you quickly time the passing.  Again, you record the data.  Hmmm.... is it your imagination or did it seem a tiny bit quicker and a hint larger?

Again this scenario repeats itself, but you notice when the vehicle(?) is directly in front of you there are exactly seven minutes to the second between each center-take.

After several more passings, each exactly seven minutes in the interval, you conclude it is a vehicle and it is displaying no lights of any kind.  Recall you are sitting out in a large open area and the vehicle is traveling a course that appears to run parallel, but ever closer to your latitude.

Several more passings.  You attempt to follow where it goes and where it comes from, but you cannot.  The only thing you can be certain of is the seven minutes to the second to see it directly in front hiding more and more of the soft glow every seven minutes.  Only now, you have been able to discern the vehicle is moving to a nearer parallel with each pass.  Every trek down the latitude line is one foot closer than it was before.

There are only 23 one-foot "latitudes" between you and that menacing vehicular apparition.  
23 x 7 = 161
Just one-hundred and sixty-one minutes left... only a little less than 2-3/4 hours until the relentless and calculated advance will travel on the very parallel where you are sitting alone and in the dark.

Ok, enough of my version of the "Pit and the Pendulum."  Since the corollary to the "Dark Planet" scenario is so blatant, I'll refrain from offering any explanation, but I did have fun writing it!  Thmbsup          

I'll simply ask *if* the ifs in my discourse are not more plausible?

~CT
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 09:02:26 PM by CodeTRUCKER » Logged

I applaud those that refuse to commit "intellectual suicide."

Truth, unlike opinion, tradition, etc. will always be able to stand on its own.  Truth is not a static, but a living entity and will perpetually impart life; therefore, any "truth" that does not or can not impart life can not be Truth.

I am persuaded the only reason bad men have succeeded is not because good men have done nothing, but that good men did not do enough.

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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2011, 04:50:45 PM »

IIRC the Mayan calendar in question is spot on for current events like seasons and (winter/sumer) solstices ... So their "math" does have established street cred...
Yes, it still is useful for that, but that obviates the point; we're going to need a new one starting with December 22, 2012.
Left to our modern culture, it'll probably be a swimsuit edition... >_<

Out Standing! - I'll take 5 - Where do I sign!


@CT - Regarding the Will the Government lie to us question. I submit this question is fundamentally flawed...As it assumes that at some point the government was telling the "truth" ... i-Mushroom  cheesy
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JennyB
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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2011, 04:56:04 PM »


I believe the only reason this subject is even being discussed is that:
(1) It is a concrete date.
No other civilization lost to the sands of time has given so unambiguous a date for any event, no matter how mundane.
(2) The date in question is "at our doorstep", so to speak.
Whether we take any stock in it or not, it is something happening in our very lifetime, so it enters into our culture and our collective conversation whether we like it our not simply by virtue of the fact that it is NOW.

Personally, I like the Bible's proclamation that "no man will know the day or the hour", so basically setting a date is kinda pointless.

P.S. Here's an easy read on Mayan math and date reckoning:
http://www.buriedmirror.com/maya-calendar.htm

As far as I tell from that and Wikipedia, the calendar does not end in 2012. At best, that is (possibly) the end of one cycle. The Meso-Americans seem  to have counted days rather than years (presumably because seasonality was not so marked as in more northerly latitudes). As with Julian Day Numbers, it's easy to count back without having to worry about leap years and the like. They counted in base 20, but the Long Count seems to be based on notional years of 360 days (the same as the Babylonians used).  To help them keep track, they had twenty day names, which they numbered modulo 13, so that after 260 days the pattern of day numbers and names would recur.  The start of the Long Count has been calculated as August 13, 3114 BCE, though I doubt if the actual counting began so long ago.

So what cycle will end in 2012?  13 x 20 x 20 360-day years.  If you are counting of 20-year periods (the third digit space on a Long Count date), one cycle of 260. Is that significant? It's a bit like saying "a year of generations," or the various schemes based on "a thousand years as a single day."

If pre-Mayan peoples did think in terms of cycle of this length, then perhaps the Long Count began ca. 550 BCE., when whoever started it supposed themselves at the midpoint.  I wonder what they would have thought if they could see the result?  tongue



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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2011, 05:00:37 PM »

Please accept my rebuttal as friendly "sparring."  That's the way I received your comments! 

Me too smiley

That is good to know! Thmbsup

Quote
When it comes to predicting a collision between planets, comets, etc, I do believe the math is extremely complicated. Predicting planet movements under the assumption for circular orbits (be they around the sun or earth) is one thing, but trying to predict the future path of a comet with potential to collide with the earth requires an awful lot of background knowledge together with extremely accurate observations..
Not if you are sitting on one of the planets.

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So my suggestion for a disproof is that a) If records of the Mayans math and science levels are sufficiently comprehensive, and b) If they show that the Mayans did not have this necessary background knowledge - Then one could say with significant confidence that the Mayan calendar ending is not based an an accurate prediction of an impending collision.

Two big If's I know, but I just pointing out one way in which the Dark Planet theory could very genuinely be disproved
...
If my "Dark Planet" scenario was based on the calculus(?) level equations your explanation uses as a basis and was related to *my* scenario, your negation of the "Dark Planet" might be valid.  The only issue is my scenario of the "Dark Planet" is solely based on simple observations and data collection.

~CT
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I applaud those that refuse to commit "intellectual suicide."

Truth, unlike opinion, tradition, etc. will always be able to stand on its own.  Truth is not a static, but a living entity and will perpetually impart life; therefore, any "truth" that does not or can not impart life can not be Truth.

I am persuaded the only reason bad men have succeeded is not because good men have done nothing, but that good men did not do enough.

An Open Letter to My Friends


Notice: - Unless stated otherwise, I receive no compensation for anything I post here.
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« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2011, 05:12:43 PM »

Okay, how's this:

When the "Dark Planet arrives (which it will)... It will not actually strike us, as it is only at that time coming to its closest proximity (which is still a good distance).

The importance of this timely event, is that then, and only then at the the very height of its closest proximity can the Mayan space ships return (hay somebody had to go there...), land, and present us with the newly updated Mayan calendar (space babes - swimsuit edition).
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« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2011, 05:39:53 PM »

It appears that at that date earth will go through a universal barrier (our milky way moves in a wave-like pattern), which could possibly result in reversing the magnetic poles of the earth, the transference of the equator and for one half of the planet the sun will net set for three days while the other half will have night for the same period. Those events can be the catalyst to a new ice age.

The earth's internal core is moving at a continual decreasing speed until we hit that barrier and that will have it's effect. Electricity only flows because the earth rotates around its axis. And at that date the earth is at a practical standstill. With our society and our dependence on electricity I can see some problems arising.

Earth as we know it will cease to exist...you could say that our planet will be "rebooted" in a galactic way. The Mayan calendar predicts just that. It appears that every 5000 years this happens.

The above is all the predictions from a Vincent Stein (iirc his name correctly). He has actually a quite convincing story to tell.
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