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Author Topic: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?  (Read 13100 times)
Renegade
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« Reply #75 on: January 02, 2011, 09:42:44 PM »

I know... A lot of people are skeptical...

But can anyone name an alternative that offers what the CLI offers? There isn't one.

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« Reply #76 on: January 02, 2011, 10:16:38 PM »

Edward,

Quote
I'm a "freebie-sucker" because my income doesn't allow me to purchase software for which I find acceptable freeware alternatives? Jeez, first you call me a cheapskate, and now this...
Grin Hey, even i'm freebie sucker when it comes to software which goes over price tag of 2000$ onwards, and yes there are commercial softwares which costs this high (either via subscription or box purchase). Point is about people who are knocking down on commercial software asking to release it for free, that's just freebie-sucking in my opinion.

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I'm lazy because I can't afford the latest whiz-bang constantly slung at me by game magazine advertisements?
Let's face this, that point in the list is too subjective and so is my reply to that point and in turn yours as well to my reply. People upgrade hardware for new games if they afford it and if not they keep it up for long time, edward.

Quote
What does the structure of a filesystem and disk mount points have to do with the amount of your available free time?If you're talking about setting up system parameters and application preferences that you're unfamiliar with, fine, yes, that's going to take some time.Windows requires babysitting as well, most people are just much more familiar with the environment and the process, which translates to "faster".
No, i was talking about learning curve to visualizing folders in same or multiple drives. This is issue for those who are new to computers, and in turn it affects their time of using any OS. We work it out on UNIX/Linux because we take our time for learning the system, that's not the case with casual users who are learning computers while keeping track of time. Data sorting on multiple drives is easy for newbies, as per my Observation.

Quote
Dude, you've thrown this gauntlet down before and I've thrown it right back at you but you obviously didn't catch it.There are MANY legitimate reasons why NOT to write games for Linux, but it HAS NOW BEEN PROVEN that profit (or lack thereof) is NOT one of them.
I took that point by keeping myself in shoes as game developer and gamer. You know we talk a lot about speed mostly when we play graphics intensive games. And surely people are less likely to play games unless those games are packed under marketing catch like - STEAM or other online gaming repository. Profit is always the first point of small game dev company or even large because it costs money to pay for graphics and programming. Linux users who don't afford to purchase 50$ commercial softwares will lift any game which is priced at the same ? It's just my observation from what i see in gaming zones and cafes in my city.

Quote
Windows users were sharing MP3s and cracked software before Linux even had a decent desktop.
Your insinuation is illogical at best and malicious at worst.
File sharing cult become popular on linux platform first before it was adopted by large windows userbase. So it's not illogical, GNUTella and many other packages were first made for linux then windows if i'm not wrong. Intention wasn't deceptive on linux platform though because everything was free there but that was not the case with windows because it infected other domains like music, files and books.


Quote
I'm sure you are, especially if you're a half-decent system administrator, which I'm assuming is true.
Personally, I've never felt more in control of a computer than the day I fully grasped the implications of running Linux instead of Windows.
I've to agree if you're pointing me towards server administration with linux (AFA web hosting and script management is concerned i prefer linux as well) but for desktop usability and learning curve is important as well and there windows comes in for me.

Quote
However, I cannot stand by the perception that developing for Linux with commercial intent is inherently a losing proposition because "Linux users will not pay for software".
I can understand your view on this but if you study consumer behavior then your opinion will definitely change. Take a look at this, we have to get X work done and for that we're going to take help of OS. Say X is work of sending some file via browser and any modern OS will do the job. In such case consumer will select minimum resistance path, which is linux in this case. This operating system is free and beating commercial OS on every possible way. Now take case of games or any other app which are paid or made by small team of dev or business. What are the chances that will tempt consumers to buy app or game ? Trust me, very low. We have to study shopper's psychology more in order to get the guesstimate of sales. It's not because consumers are cheap or freebie-suckers all the time, but it's because of GNU/FSF modified consumer behavior in large scale and changed the way market works. Even small business who wants to develop some productive software will think twice before charging upfront, current market only allows subscription or service model for them to survive. Unless you're desperate to get things done on computer as casual user, you'll not pay for things on software world for example, you'll not buy media player anymore because it's free on every platform(which earlier was paid software during 1999-2002 time) but you'll pay for managed scripting, outsourced task and server management even if the platform is free, you'll pay for service. What about games ? Unless price is low or free, people will hardly buy  games for linux. During initial phase of desktop market of linux, they'll buy games if they're desperate to play games, else they'll not at all. Piracy/cracking will also remain on linux or unix as well, there is nothing that remains protected for long time anyway. Now put yourself into shoes of developer who wants to make money to bring food on table, which platform gives you more profitable option ? One thing i learned from social observation is that if you keep on helping others by writing free software without any strings, they'll only pay attention as long as source is active and once you become inactive as source for their free info/stuff, they move to another one without even thinking who you are or what you did for them(that's life afterall), so why starve in life? Either work on donation model or start charging some bucks upfront. I'm in favor of charging for software or in some cases releasing it for free if possible no matter what's the platform. But i'm not in favor of conversion/preaching lists like the one we see here from that link where attempt was to badmouth other OS just to get more users without showing them bigger picture of profit and GTD.

Quote
In fact, why not do as others have and just try developing a commercial software project that is cross-platform; something that fills a need for Linux users as well as Windows and Mac.
For small biz/individual developer, it's very hard to select library that is cross-platform and gets things going quickly. QT is free but there is licensing issue. Java/Mono(for now) are not good options for commercial apps over long term is what i think, which many of you may disagree.

Forgive my typos/clutter, feeling damn sleepy now.  Grin

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Renegade
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« Reply #77 on: January 02, 2011, 10:27:06 PM »

For small biz/individual developer, it's very hard to select library that is cross-platform and gets things going quickly. QT is free but there is licensing issue. Java/Mono(for now) are not good options for commercial apps over long term is what i think, which many of you may disagree.

I'm curious as to why you feel Mono isn't a good choice right now. (And Java too, but less interested in that as I tend to agree.)

There's this for QT for C#:

http://code.google.com/p/qt4dotnet/

But I wish there were a Nokia supported version. Using more complicated software is scary when you commit yourself to it. Small stuff that you can rip out and replace easily is one thing, but QT4dotnet... not sure... Looks interesting though. I should give it a spin. smiley
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mahesh2k
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« Reply #78 on: January 02, 2011, 10:52:42 PM »

I think it's too risky to spend time on device apps with mono, i doubt if they even exist for symbian and maemo/android.

Problem with QT is that for entry level programmers they either need to port it under GPL or pay for license(which is huge for individual developer), which restricts many solo-dev commercial apps. Thanks for the link, i'll take a look at qt4dotnet.
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Renegade
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« Reply #79 on: January 02, 2011, 11:02:11 PM »

I think it's too risky to spend time on device apps with mono, i doubt if they even exist for symbian and maemo/android.

Problem with QT is that for entry level programmers they either need to port it under GPL or pay for license(which is huge for individual developer), which restricts many solo-dev commercial apps. Thanks for the link, i'll take a look at qt4dotnet.

I'm not sure what you mean there.

Mono has a few basic versions:

* Mono (the core)
* MonoTouch (for iPhone)
* MonoDroid (for Android)

Out of the box, that's quite a bit of coverage.
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JavaJones
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« Reply #80 on: January 03, 2011, 01:29:19 AM »

With Qt it's my understanding that you can just link to the Qt DLL libraries and, as long as you contribute any Qt modifications back, then your application itself doesn't need to be OS/GPL. I'm actually looking into this pretty seriously as an app I'm involved with may be ported within the next year, so I hope this is the case. cheesy

- Oshyan
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Renegade
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« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2011, 03:34:22 AM »

With Qt it's my understanding that you can just link to the Qt DLL libraries and, as long as you contribute any Qt modifications back, then your application itself doesn't need to be OS/GPL. I'm actually looking into this pretty seriously as an app I'm involved with may be ported within the next year, so I hope this is the case. cheesy

- Oshyan

You're both correct. There are 3 options:

http://qt.nokia.com/products/licensing

Quote
   Commercial   License fee charged
   LGPL   No license fee
   GPL   No license fee

http://qt.nokia.com/products/pricing

$3,695 for 1 OS license. OUCH~!

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« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2011, 09:57:09 PM »

@ mahesh2k:
Fair points; I think you've made your case a bit better this time around.
That first reply was a bit snarky, in my opinion, and sounded more like a backhand than answers.

I'm in full agreement that it is, at the very least, rude to ask a commercial developer (small or large) to release their hard-fought work for free.
You have every right to charge what you think is a fair price for your work, and anybody who has issue with that is not worth your time.
Good point also about the rise of subscription/service model of modern software.
So much stuff is moving to "the cloud" that subscription appears to be the ONLY way to profit, sadly.

[edit: cut out yet another long-winded answer]

Once again, I fully support you in your efforts and I hope you do well.
Developing for Windows has obviously provided for you and I'm sure will continue to in the future.
Just PLEASE don't offhandedly dismiss Linux as a potential market.
If it is at all possible, jump in now while there is still time or you WILL be surpassed by those who will.
It has happened to me personally (in a different industry), and I regret it.
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« Reply #83 on: January 04, 2011, 09:39:39 PM »

I'm in full agreement that it is, at the very least, rude to ask a commercial developer (small or large) to release their hard-fought work for free.

I disagree on general free market principles. In a working free market it is the job of producers to maximize their profits and it's the job of consumers to get the best product for their needs at the lowest possible price. Only when both producers and consumers do their respective jobs well does a free market economy truly work. And since the lowest possible price is free there's really nothing wrong with consumers asking for it -- as asking for free is often a good way to drive prices down. The goal of free can seldom be reached, of course, but consumers should be trying just as hard to push the price toward free as the producers are trying to maximize their profits. Therefore, I don't think it is any more rude for a consumer to ask for free than it is for a producer to raise prices.
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Renegade
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« Reply #84 on: January 04, 2011, 10:37:57 PM »

I'm in full agreement that it is, at the very least, rude to ask a commercial developer (small or large) to release their hard-fought work for free.

I disagree on general free market principles. In a working free market it is the job of producers to maximize their profits and it's the job of consumers to get the best product for their needs at the lowest possible price. Only when both producers and consumers do their respective jobs well does a free market economy truly work. And since the lowest possible price is free there's really nothing wrong with consumers asking for it -- as asking for free is often a good way to drive prices down. The goal of free can seldom be reached, of course, but consumers should be trying just as hard to push the price toward free as the producers are trying to maximize their profits. Therefore, I don't think it is any more rude for a consumer to ask for free than it is for a producer to raise prices.

Free does not fit into the free market. Since free is zero (0), it isn't a real part of the market because there's no commerce there.

Mathematically it wont work. Start throwing zero into equations and eventually you'll end up with a div by zero error. tongue

But seriously -- that's the problem -- you will get a div by zero error, at which place everything falls to pieces. 

Then again, there is a "workaround" or hack for consumers to get things for free... It's called robbery or theft. And you don't get a div by zero error. smiley

Asking for software for free is no different than asking for a free meal at a restaurant, or free groceries at the supermarket, or free gas at the pump.

The number system does not include zero. Zero causes errors. Wink
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« Reply #85 on: January 05, 2011, 12:27:26 AM »

Don't underestimate the value of social coding, which not only allows people to reuse a bunch of code out there, but provided the [GNU] tools for Linux to be built, and then for it to be refined and quickly upgraded to version 1.0. Before the decade was over (the 1990s, that is), many Fortune 500 companies saw the advantage of the Linux kernel and put their coders to work, customizing versions to their respective industries. As Edvard repeatedly hammers: don't shut doors based on old or second-hand misinformation about Linux. Immersion is the trick. Only when I stopped dual-booting and playing back and forth between my old Windows computer and the Linux system years ago did things finally start clicking.
________
Finally, candy. Found this neat cross-platform word processor called FocusWriter. It hides its UI, has themes, live stats and word count, and even document tabs. Simple and free, and in the spirit of Donationcoder, the author has a donation link right on the page. Nice!!
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« Reply #86 on: January 05, 2011, 09:32:28 AM »

Re:Focus Writer

Prerty cool! I currently use WriteMonkey, which does much the same thing. But it's a Windows only app. Nice to see something that straddles multiple op systems.

Note: I'll likely switch over to the blank screen editor found in Liquid Story Binder "real soon now."  It's not that I have a problem with WriteMonkey. (I actually prefer it to LSB's version!)  But since I'm spending so much time in LSB, it's just easier to keep everything inside the one app so to speak.

My big goal for this year is to distill my work environment down to it's absolute essence. I feel I'm using far too many software tools to get my work done lately. (But I'd suspect that's  a fairly common 'occupational hazard' for folks like us.)

 Kiss Simplify, simplify, simplify... Kiss

(Man, I really must be getting old if I'm talking like that...  Grin)
        
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« Reply #87 on: January 05, 2011, 10:36:30 PM »

My big goal for this year is to distill my work environment down to it's absolute essence. I feel I'm using far too many software tools to get my work done lately. (But I'd suspect that's  a fairly common 'occupational hazard' for folks like us.)
 Kiss Simplify, simplify, simplify... Kiss   (Man, I really must be getting old if I'm talking like that...  Grin)

Yea, but it's still an honorable goal, much like clearing the clutter out of your house or apartment. Been playing around with Nepomuk within Linux/KDE and REALLY like it, but don't use it enough to keep on the system. And I truly like Kate text editor, but again, Kwrite fills the need 95% of the time. Not having as much to administer leaves more time for content consumption.
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« Reply #88 on: January 06, 2011, 12:12:47 AM »

Quote
@ mahesh2k:
Fair points; I think you've made your case a bit better this time around.
That first reply was a bit snarky, in my opinion, and sounded more like a backhand than answers.
It wasn't snarky IMO edward, but more answer to the way that list was formed. Lists are usually over-generalized no matter who do it (windows or linux fan boys).I'm not religious(in any way actually) when it comes to programming language or OS, like i said we care for bringing food on table and solving problems for customers. I do understand that i should get into linux coding during early phases but due to economy in this part of the world, it's hard to afford it and people here hardly pay for software so if this approach remains then there is no other option than cloud or subscription model. GNU/FSF people are actually shutting down all the financial models of software business (refer to how thesis theme owner got slammed by wordpress foundation because he charged for free software), these things in turn give linux or any other usable software a bad name when such lists come into blogs.

@rssapphire,
Quote
Therefore, I don't think it is any more rude for a consumer to ask for free than it is for a producer to raise prices.
Asking for free price to any product is no different than piracy. GNU/FSF model just forces paid developers to put their hard work for free and pirates steal it and release it for free. 'Stealing' is the only action that separates pirates and GNU/FSF people, at the end result is same, developers get slammed because of dropping their price of product to 0.

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« Reply #89 on: January 06, 2011, 08:08:21 AM »

Asking for free price to any product is no different than piracy. GNU/FSF model just forces paid developers to put their hard work for free and pirates steal it and release it for free. 'Stealing' is the only action that separates pirates and GNU/FSF people, at the end result is same, developers get slammed because of dropping their price of product to 0.

It's still the duty of consumers in a free market to push the prices as low as possible (which means as close to free as they can get them). That's not stealing, that's the way a free market is supposed to work.  If consumers aren't pressing for the lowest price they can get, the market is broken in favor of producers.

And free is a price. Producers are under no obligation to make a profit, they have just as much right to give their property away as they do to charge for it -- it is their property after all. That's the whole point of owning property -- to be able to do with it as you want not do with it what others want.
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« Reply #90 on: January 06, 2011, 08:56:57 AM »

Re: free markets

FWIW, they really don't exist.  Sad

Many economists would even argue it's doubtful a truly free market has ever existed since every market has been subject to some form of regulation or other non-economic influence throughout human history.

And that applies just as equally to black markets. In some respects, illegal businesses are regulated much more thoroughly (and severely) than their lawful cousins.

Many times, the only thing that separates a legal business activity from an illegal one is the permit that authorizes it. (e.g. In most societies, the use of physical violence is a government monopoly. That's why we have armies and police agencies. When butts need kicking, it's the exclusive perogative of the government to do it.)

Governments, on the other hand, feel no need to debate this topic. They already know there's no 'free' market because they won't allow it.

This is one reason why so much free market thinking breaks down. There are no free markets to apply it to.

Apparently it's not in our nature to let things find their own path or balance.  smiley
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« Reply #91 on: January 09, 2011, 12:10:31 AM »

@rssapphire

Quote
It's still the duty of consumers in a free market to push the prices as low as possible (which means as close to free as they can get them).

We're not in free market, we pay for our stuff be it food, medicine and other stuff. Free market doesn't exist in world where we pay for things. Point is about people who dream about free market shouldn't take down paid products or chase them to release it for free.

Quote
That's not stealing, that's the way a free market is supposed to work.

Please read my earlier post again, i said 'stealing' is the only action that separates pirates and Free philosophy people. What common is between these two is both of these types force product creators to release stuff for free because either they are lazy, free-bie sucker or simply don't want to pay for someone's hard work, they have no respect.


Quote
If consumers aren't pressing for the lowest price they can get, the market is broken in favor of producers.
And if consumers are only asking for free things in then there is no marketplace to exist to begin with, it';s just like some random tree with fruits hanging and anyone can come and pluck it type of world. Nobody cares for garden and gardener type of world. Such free thinking from consumers is breaking the marketplace.


Quote
And free is a price.


No. Free is where price is divisible by 0. Which makes it just another concept of infinity where people don't care at all about price of someone's hardwork but more of their own GTD. Value, morals are reduced to 0 when anything is tagged as Free.


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« Reply #92 on: January 09, 2011, 10:34:28 AM »

We're not in free market, we pay for our stuff be it food, medicine and other stuff. Free market doesn't exist in world where we pay for things. Point is about people who dream about free market shouldn't take down paid products or chase them to release it for free.

A "free market" in economics has nothing to do with "all products being free."
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« Reply #93 on: January 09, 2011, 02:00:10 PM »

We're not in free market, we pay for our stuff be it food, medicine and other stuff. Free market doesn't exist in world where we pay for things. Point is about people who dream about free market shouldn't take down paid products or chase them to release it for free.

A "free market" in economics has nothing to do with "all products being free."

+1!  Thmbsup
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« Reply #94 on: January 09, 2011, 10:12:40 PM »

I can't believe someone confused the meaning of free in a GNU/Linux thread! Wink
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« Reply #95 on: January 09, 2011, 10:16:46 PM »

I can  mad mad mad
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« Reply #96 on: January 09, 2011, 10:29:57 PM »

I can  mad mad mad

Yeah, I still don't understand the whole "free as in beer" thing. Beer is free?

They need to just say something like "free as in price" to clarify what they mean. Beer doesn't bring either definition of "free" to my mind.

Then again, beer frees you from your money and your inhibitions, so in a way I guess it could be talking about price or freedom (or both).
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« Reply #97 on: January 09, 2011, 11:19:14 PM »

I can  mad mad mad

Yeah, I still don't understand the whole "free as in beer" thing. Beer is free?

They need to just say something like "free as in price" to clarify what they mean. Beer doesn't bring either definition of "free" to my mind.

Then again, beer frees you from your money and your inhibitions, so in a way I guess it could be talking about price or freedom (or both).

The whole "free beer" thing only confuses stuff. I don't know how that got started in the confused sense. The original is "Free as in free speech, and not free as in free beer".
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« Reply #98 on: January 10, 2011, 01:29:06 AM »

The original is "Free as in free speech, and not free as in free beer".

Even that's not simple enough for the masses. My brother and I once ran a somewhat popular website and when ads weren't providing enough income to cover the site we started to offer paid membership plans. We got a few e-mails complaining about it, one person even said something to the effect of "Why should I have to pay, it's a free country!"

So my point is that even using the word in a context that would imply the correct definition can still confuse people. That's why I strongly recommend something like "Free as in freedom as opposed to free as in price."

EDIT: clarified a sentence that didn't sound right after re-reading it.
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« Reply #99 on: January 10, 2011, 02:31:22 AM »

The original is "Free as in free speech, and not free as in free beer".

Even that's not simple enough for the masses. My brother and I once ran a somewhat popular website and when ads weren't providing enough income to cover the site we started to offer paid membership plans. We got a few e-mails complaining about it, one person even said something to the effect of "Why should I have to pay, it's a free country!"

So my point is that even using the word in a context that would imply the correct definition people still confuse it. That's why I strongly recommend something like "Free as in freedom as opposed to free as in price."

That is MUCH clearer. I only meant to quote the origin, which is the source of the confusion.  huh  ohmy

I like the "free country" bit. That's just funny that someone really is that stupid. Perhaps a distant cousin of Mrs. Malaprop. tongue
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Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker
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