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Author Topic: Upgrading RoboForm from v6 to v7: worthwhile?  (Read 23258 times)
Darwin
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« Reply #75 on: January 21, 2011, 11:12:17 AM »

The last straw for me is that, having paid the $9.95 for Roboform Everywhere in a numb-nutted, touchy-feely, what the heck moment, I am now no longer able to use RoboformPass2Go on my thumbdrives - the two licenses that I have purchased no longer activate. I'm looking at LastPass now (thank you, Carol, for your comments about it on the Betanews thread).

I'll be expunging my system of both Roboform and GoodSync if LastPass functions as promised.
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Josh
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« Reply #76 on: January 21, 2011, 11:31:49 AM »

Quote
he recession hit everybody and software developers don’t make an exception. Therefore, in order to best deal with this situation, some companies have decided to take immediate action and make some important changes to their licensing model. Now, most companies did this with a sense of ethics... but not all of them, so this article covers the most recent example of how NOT to go about this kind of changes.

First things first though: a company that took notice of the economic changes a long time ago was Slysoft, the developers of the popular AnyDVD. The first measure they took was to switch from dollars to euros.

Of course, as time passed by, new measures were required and so, recently, the company announced yet another change to its licensing program: the switch from lifetime licenses to yearly subscriptions.

Why is this example worth mentioning, you ask. Well, because in both cases, Slysoft not only announced the changes at least a few weeks before making them, but they also offered a 20% discount in the weeks prior to the change. Obviously, all current registered users were not affected by these changes, they didn't have to pay a single cent or change their subscription plan.

How not to change a licensing model

By the way, I posted my rather lengthy retort to Bill on fileforum as well. Carol, thanks for posting yours. I am hoping they decide to honor their previous licenses.
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superboyac
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« Reply #77 on: January 21, 2011, 12:41:39 PM »

I don't want to defend Roboform too much because they did break their lifetime upgrade policy, but I do completely understand and somewhat sympathize.  I've said it many times here, I have no idea how developers can sustain themselves by offering freeware OR lifetime upgrades.  The lifetime upgrade policy is the same as freeware, just with a one time fee up front.  It's impossible to sustain forever.  The only way it's possible is if you already have a lot of money or you have a lot of volunteers working for you.  But who is in that situation?  If you have written good software, the userbase is going to grow.  As it grows, your work is going to increase.  Not just for developing the program, but supporting it also.  And you're going to do that all for free forever?  No way, I don't see how.  So I understand Roboform changing their license policy.  I'm not defending the way they did it, but I understand why they had to do it.

As for Roboform, aside from the licensing issues, I still prefer it over all the other programs.  So i don't mind paying the upgrade fee.  Sure, I would have preferred a free upgrade, but I'll pay if it means I can keep using Roboform.  I really like the program.  And I know Lastpass and the others are good also, but it's not worth changing for me.  I'd rather pay whatever it costs.  For me to change, in my mind, is like a $200 hassle.  So anything below that, I'm fine with.  I wasn't always like this.  But I've been very fortunate the last 5 years, my salary has increased quite a bit, and I'll pay a few extra dollars for comfort.

But I also sympathize with all the users who got screwed by the lifetime thing.  Maybe it would have been best to only apply the new licensing to new users, but it's tough.  People have to make money.  I'd rather they implement a klunky licensing policy change, instead of going out of business.

I really don't get the freeware model.  I don't even think I like it, because of what it means to me.  I mean, I love getting free software from mouser, skwire, etc. but I almost wish they'd force me to pay them.  Why?  Because a lot of these freeware developers are really awesome at what they do: they have great attitudes, great skill, great creativity.  If someone gave them a lot of cash to comfortably develop some software without worrying about their other lifestyle issues, I feel we'd see some amazing programs.  I've secretly wished I could start a company with the people here as programmers, pay them well, and come up with some software and suites that would blow the roof off of all of these "enterprise" companies.  Oracle?  Oracle makes billions off of their software, and it's not even that good.  The design isn't great, not very creative, very bloated.  Now, imagine we get the talented programmers from DC here, start a company, and start creating a lot of little programs (coding snacks) but not for free.  Charge a little bit for them.  Provide good support, really focus on fine tuning the interfaces/speed/code/etc. to get them exceptional...it would be a great thing.

There's enough talent here, in my opinion, to start a company that can create excellent solutions for people.  Imagine if you guys were doing it for a living instead of just on the side.  I'm 99% sure the quality of the programs would surpass anything out there right now.  With a little bit of proper marketing, the tools would really start to catch on.  The great thing is that you wouldn't have to hide behind any gimmicks like a lot of big companies whose software quality isn't good, they just have nice interfaces or a big name.  The difference is that the software's quality would speak for itself.  So if people were initially hesitant to commit to it, the quality would soon make them give in.
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« Reply #78 on: January 21, 2011, 12:57:00 PM »

I do sympathize with them. However, like you said, that does not excuse them from the licenses they sold to people. Free upgrades is what was sold to me on all 7 of my licenses. Now, I either have to stick with v7, pay over 100 dollars to upgrade them all to their equivelant license in v7, or pay yearly to use the product that I thought was a one time fee.

I do understand their position, and I do understand why they made the change, however I feel that old users should be grandfathered in or offered something more than "10 dollars off one year of RF Everywhere" or "10 dollars off each desktop license you choose to upgrade". That is a slap in the face to me as a user who was forced to purchase 2 additional licenses because it "appeared I was pirating the software due to the number of activations". Since joining DoCo several years ago, I have developed a new-found fondness for actually compensating software authors. I no longer pirate software. I pay for programs I use past their trial times. That said, I expect software authors to hold up their end of the deal when they sell me a license. No, lifetime upgrades are likely not a sustainable licensing model, but that should be fairly obvious to anyone entering the market. If I were to even consider a lifetime model were I to release a public application, it would be at a higher cost than the standard license to compensate for the added cost of support required later in the product lifecycle.

RF, in my opinion, has done wrong by their long time users and supporters. Putting up a "limited time only" free upgrade for folks who purchased licenses in the last 4 months. Alienating the users who have made them as big as they are today, and doing so with a sense that they have done nothing wrong. I am migrating to lastpass as we speak, and will not look back unless roboform attempts to contact me and right the wrong they have done by the products sold to me.
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Darwin
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« Reply #79 on: January 21, 2011, 01:06:26 PM »

I hear ya, Superboyac. I feel much the same way. However, I've installed LastPass, downgraded to Roboform 6 to export my data (and note that I uninstalled Roboform 7 first but Robofrom 6 Pro was automatically activated, which I thought rather nice), and imported my data into LastPass. Looks good so far - haven't found any mistakes. I love Roboform and this breaks my heart a bit, but for now I'm trialing lastPass and will switch completely if there are no problems. As I've alredy noted, I paid for the upgrade to Roboform Everywhere and, courtesy of having bought two additional Roboform 6 Pro licenses in their last Bits du Jour offer (a few weeks before 7 was released), upgraded to Roboform 7 Desktop as well. So, with the apparent exception of RoboformPass2Go, I'm good to go for a year with Roboform. Doesn't alter the fact that I'm not going to condone this kind of treatment. Being able to afford (and appreciate the rationale behind) paid upgrades is one thing, but I still want to be treated with a modicum of respect and I don't feel that this is the case with Siber Systems.
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J-Mac
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« Reply #80 on: January 21, 2011, 01:14:38 PM »

Sympathize? With Siber Systems? Surely you jest!

I can certainly understand the folly of offering so-called "lifetime" licenses, though if developers see fit to offer them then they damn well better have a good business plan in place that supports them. And if they don’t then they are either very stupid - which I doubt in Siber System's case - or they are just full of crap and know damn well up front that they will renege on the licenses at some point. Now that I believe.

Of course there is one more case to consider: Developers such as Slysoft - who offered lifetime licenses for a long time and have since basically invented just about every advancement in breaking copy protection of CD's, DVD's, and Blue Ray. When it got to the point of them needing to change their license model to survive they kept their promised license model in place for those to whom they sold it and changed the model only for new customers from that point on. And when they got some negative feedback anyway (read: crying and whining from those who had somehow used the software for years without ever purchasing... hmmm), they put it off for a whole year AND offered their lifetime licenses all that year at a discount. Then they changed it. And only for new customers. That's how it should be done.

For other developers who started out offering their product licenses with "free updates" with no limitations stated, they are con artists and for them I have absolutely no sympathy at all. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada. May they fail in their endeavors and choke on their own avarice!

Not that I take it personally or anything.   tongue      

Thank you.

Jim
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 01:17:40 PM by J-Mac » Logged

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Bamse
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« Reply #81 on: January 21, 2011, 01:24:33 PM »

First time "trial" appeared was in changelog for one of the countless betas of version 7. I don't bother looking it up but I think at least 2-3 months before final arrived though still very late in beta cycle. Already then some people complained on their twitter and not much have changed since. Now they say that yes we have made some mistakes regarding communication but have been busy with new website and all. Like they did not realize trial means a whole new situation towards customers and now have to deal with the sad news best way possible. They have never had focus on easing the pain for at least those with 1-2 year old licenses. Instead they go Let us help each other Wink They have planned this since early stages of 7 or you can slap me silly.

Their arguments make sense, much is almost out of their hands but behavior towards customers they control. That is why people are pissed off. Don't feel sorry for them because "lifetime" has same value as "minimum system requirements" for a game or Windows! With a more fair upgrade policy and less marketing nonsense complaints would have been 1/10th of what they are now. Also because 7 is way better than 6 Wink
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« Reply #82 on: January 21, 2011, 02:28:36 PM »

I installed KeePass, but I was entirely unable to get any browser integration to work at all.

What exactly do you mean by integration with a browser?  I can't (quickly, anyway) see anything about that in their Web Help.

It does have the ability to try to fill in a password form by pressing a hotkey.  Tools > Options > Advanced tab (right hand end), click the Auto-Type button near the bottom right, and you can set the hotkey to make it pop up?  Surely that's not what you meant?
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Cloq
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« Reply #83 on: January 21, 2011, 08:16:58 PM »

Snipped most of the content, as Josh pointed out, it was posted earlier, but I wanted to share my disgust on "What if I'm still not satisfied?" part. NOT! mad

------------------------
Originally Posted by b2carey_siber

(snipped)
What if I'm still not satisfied?

We want to make everyone happy. If you feel we are still not justified in charging for upgrades please contact us at the emails below. Perhaps we can find a way to make you happy and keep you as a customer for life.

Simon Davis - sdavis(at)roboform.com
Bill Carey - b2carey(at)roboform.com
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 08:31:57 PM by Cloq » Logged
Josh
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« Reply #84 on: January 21, 2011, 08:21:52 PM »

That was also posted at the betanews link shown earlier in this topic smiley

Click "View All Reviews"
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Cloq
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« Reply #85 on: January 21, 2011, 08:24:59 PM »

ah! must have missed it on betanews..  Grin

Pretty much stopped reading anything about Roboform on betanews, even though it is my favorite site to download software from.
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« Reply #86 on: January 21, 2011, 08:35:26 PM »

I installed KeePass, but I was entirely unable to get any browser integration to work at all.

What exactly do you mean by integration with a browser?  I can't (quickly, anyway) see anything about that in their Web Help.

It does have the ability to try to fill in a password form by pressing a hotkey.  Tools > Options > Advanced tab (right hand end), click the Auto-Type button near the bottom right, and you can set the hotkey to make it pop up?  Surely that's not what you meant?

If you Firefox, KeeFox

I haven't tried it, though I plan on migrating to Keepass once v6 of Roboform no longer functions with Firefox.
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rjbull
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« Reply #87 on: January 22, 2011, 01:55:59 PM »

If you Firefox, KeeFox

I haven't tried it, though I plan on migrating to Keepass once v6 of Roboform no longer functions with Firefox.

I haven't tried it either, but if I hit a problem with RoboForm, I'm planning to take a look at Password Depot as well.
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« Reply #88 on: January 23, 2011, 11:08:29 AM »

I too had been a long-time Roboform user and advocate.  I wasn't necessarily so put off about the new licensing, but had discovered LastPass when they bought X-Marks (which I love).  Recognizing that it would be a replacement of Roboform, I reluctantly decided to give it a spin, as I like the idea of keeping my bookmarks/favorites sync'd between multiple computers and across each of my browsers (Chrome/Firefox/IE).

I have to say, I was impressed, and became a convert - now I'm sorry I paid for the Roboform upgrade.  I'll be migrating to LastPass completely, and eventually dumping RoboForm.

As for the v6 vs v7 - I'm not impressed.  As a major rev, I had hoped to see some feature requests included, and more significant benefit.  In fact, before discovering LastPass, I had decided to keep all my other Roboform instances to v6 and avoid v7 until some new feature compelled me to make the jump.  But of course, now all that is moot.
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Josh
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« Reply #89 on: January 23, 2011, 11:15:53 AM »

v7 also introduces countless bugs which never seem to be fixed.

I can select a login in one tab, and it loads the page and fills it on a completely different tab. This is a bug that has existed since 7.1.3 and has not been relieved with the advent of 7.1.7.
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TalksToPCs
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« Reply #90 on: January 26, 2011, 03:57:17 PM »

I don't want to join in the RoboForm bashing. I have upgraded to 7 and haven't regretted it.
 
I like the annual license model because it allows me to use RoboForm on as many computers and flash drives as I want. I took the leap of faith and use RoboForm Everywhere (formerly RoboForm Online).
They even have a Mac version now & I can use that too without any additional charge. It even works with opera on Windows (of sorts).

The main advantage I see in RoboForm over Lastpass is the possibility to launch login files with other productivity software (like PhraseExpress, MacroExpress or X-keys devices).

Even if there is a recession and lots of people have little money to spend, I think that griping about an annual fee of 20 $ is a bit stingy, at least when you live in country that has a GDP per capita of 20000$ and more.

Given the fact that they have always answered my support requests quickly and to the poing, I don't see why paying for their service should be a sin.

I'll be waiting for the firing squad now,
TalksToPCs  rip
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J-Mac
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« Reply #91 on: January 26, 2011, 09:21:52 PM »

So you are saying that everyone here who has a problem with losing their previously purchased "free upgrades" licenses are all somehow less entitled than you to express their opinions about it because You have read in Wikipedia that we are ALL wealthy?

I guess that could be considered perfectly reasonable logic... on some planet, somewhere...

Thank you.

Jim
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tomos
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« Reply #92 on: January 27, 2011, 02:41:17 AM »

I have upgraded to 7 and haven't regretted it.
 
I like the annual license model because it allows me to use RoboForm on as many computers and flash drives as I want. I took the leap of faith and use RoboForm Everywhere (formerly RoboForm Online).
They even have a Mac version now & I can use that too without any additional charge. It even works with opera on Windows (of sorts).

that sounds fair enough, if you're in that situation (want/need to use on multiple computers and flash drives. Me: I only use on one, so I wont be upgrading)
But I believe (without having read every post here) that the problem is the way they handled it - and the way they dealt with the "free upgrades" license and owners of same.
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Tom
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« Reply #93 on: January 27, 2011, 08:37:32 AM »

So you are saying that everyone here who has a problem with losing their previously purchased "free upgrades" licenses are all somehow less entitled than you to express their opinions about it because You have read in Wikipedia that we are ALL wealthy?
I guess that could be considered perfectly reasonable logic... on some planet, somewhere...

Companies change prices and policies all the time. I don't see why this should not apply to the software business. Some people have lost out (as some on this forum). Others have won (well, I certainly have).
One does not have to be an alien to look at something from different perspectives.

I'm all for free speech.
I merely wanted to introduce the other forum members to a different point of view. My wording could have been nicer.

But I believe (without having read every post here) that the problem is the way they handled it - and the way they dealt with the "free upgrades" license and owners of same.

Okay, I can accept that some people feel annoyed. They were made worse off. And promises were broken.
undecided

I'm actually glad that some people have enough idealism left in them to raise a fuss about things like this policy change.
I guess I've become too callous and accepted the fact that companies will f**k you over from time to time.
I'm just not critical at all because I have profited from the change.

That will be all.
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40hz
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« Reply #94 on: January 27, 2011, 12:39:46 PM »

If you sell people a "lifetime" license, it's understood that they should be receiving all future version of the product at no additional charge beyond what was paid for the lifetime license.

And please let's drop the word "free" from this discussion. These lifetime licenses were never free. They were all paid for; and were purchased with the understanding and expectation it would be the only fee that would ever need to be paid for a non-expiring license to use all future releases of this software.

All the equivocation, semantic tap dancing, and hair-splitting over exactly what "lifetime" means will not change the fact that this company is obviously trying to rationalize its way out of the promises it made.

So what this all comes down to is whether or not a person or business keeps its word.

There are at least a thousand reasons why someone may decide to go back on their word. And probably something like half of those reasons are very good ones. But it still doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the day, a promise was broken. And in the end, that's the only thing that matters to those who are affected by it.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 12:43:36 PM by 40hz » Logged

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superboyac
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« Reply #95 on: January 27, 2011, 01:09:28 PM »

If you sell people a "lifetime" license, it's understood that they should be receiving all future version of the product at no additional charge beyond what was paid for the lifetime license.

And please let's drop the word "free" from this discussion. These lifetime licenses were never free. They were all paid for; and were purchased with the understanding and expectation it would be the only fee that would ever need to be paid for a non-expiring license to use all future releases of this software.

All the equivocation, semantic tap dancing, and hair-splitting over exactly what "lifetime" means will not change the fact that this company is obviously trying to rationalize its way out of the promises it made.

So what this all comes down to is whether or not a person or business keeps its word.

There are at least a thousand reasons why someone may decide to go back on their word. And probably something like half of those reasons are very good ones. But it still doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the day, a promise was broken. And in the end, that's the only thing that matters to those who are affected by it.
Yeah, you're right I suppose.  I guess that is the real point of all of this.
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« Reply #96 on: January 27, 2011, 05:03:33 PM »

Just saw this as a Bits du Jour Suggestion: anyone know anything about it?

Sticky Password

€23.95 includes portable version

Quoting their Web site (my emphasis):
Quote

    * login automatically to your favorite websites
    * fill-in online forms with one click
    * instant access to your passwords and personal data
    * generate and store strong passwords
    * protection against identity theft, phishing and keyloggers
    * your data protected by the strongest encryption algorithms
    * easily manage all your website accounts and passwords
    * portable version included: take all your passwords with you
    * automatic password backup
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« Reply #97 on: January 30, 2011, 04:19:09 PM »

I recently attempted to swap to lastpass from Roboform after the latest incident. While LastPass has some potential, I do not feel it is near ready for a full swap. The product works on some pages. There are various pages with LastPass that will fill but not submit. Others will fill and the screen will grey out with LP's "Submitting form" screen but not do anything. I've reported numerous to LP but apparently, unless you are a premium member, you do not get any sort of decent response from the support team. That said, I have decided to dump it. I do not feel like giving them free testing and reports just to be ignored via support. My last reply was over a week ago, to which I promptly responded, and I have not heard back since.

LP feels incomplete. The GUI leaves a lot to be desired. The menus are ungodly long. The options are split between the preferences dialog and the website account settings dialogs. This should be in ONE PLACE. The controls are not very intuitive, not following standard GUI conventions, and leave a lot to be desired.

That said, I have contacted Mr. Carey at Siber Systems, per his request in various messages around the web. After several emails back and forth, I have reached a resolution which I feel to be acceptable. The company was very willing to work with me.

I even took time to explain to them how I was treated like a pirate, even accused of such by the support staff. Upon mentioning this, he said I showed 42 activations on my account for 5 licenses. I advised him that I reinstall windows on various machines quite frequently. Since there is no De-Activation system, I could not deactivate my license before-hand. As such, this resulted in a plethora of activations. Only one time did I ever exceed the number of systems to licenses restriction and I immediately purchased another.

After speaking with him, I feel content in moving back to roboform. The product, after all, cannot be beat in the arena. LastPass just left a lot to be desired when compared to RF's polish. I am still upset with the disregard to the license I purchased, but the resolution we reached is acceptable. I am back and pleased to be using RF once again.
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Carol Haynes
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« Reply #98 on: January 30, 2011, 06:58:43 PM »

Not had that problem with LastPass except for a couple of Roboform imports that had to be hand edited. Other than that I have found it works as well as RoboForm and is truly cross browser.
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« Reply #99 on: January 30, 2011, 07:07:15 PM »

It happens all of the time for me. It cannot fill flash based pages, it fails on my bank. The auto-login feature works very sporadically. Sometimes it will login, other times not. Sometimes it will fill a form, sometimes not. It is very unreliable, in my experiences.
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