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WikiLeaks: Important petition for all Australians and supporters of free speech
JavaJones:
I see what Justin Assange is doing as an act of heroism.
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Personally i don't care if he gets replaced with someone else or gets sued by government, what i care is - Wiki leaks attempt to bring things out. That's what matter more than Justin.
-mahesh2k (December 16, 2010, 02:47 PM)
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Absolutely, though I appreciate the willingness of him and those like him to put their life and freedoms on the line for what I see as a very good cause. Ultimately this is just like file sharing or any other distributed, crowd-driven system; it's a Medusa, chop off one head and another one takes its place. It's difficult or impossible to stop given sufficient motivation by the crowd. And I think these are examples of modern-day revolutionary action. It's a "sign of the times", an indication we've gotten to a certain level of dissatisfaction with government and the status quo, that we have this kind of thing happening regularly and on a large scale.
- Oshyan
JavaJones:
The similarities are in how the government is responding. I'm more trying to just understand what your perspective is though. It *seemed* like you were against people breaking their national security agreements to reveal confidential information. Is that correct? If so does that hold true in the case of Ellsberg? I don't think we'll ever totally agree here, I just want to understand what your actual position is, and it seems rather murky at present to me. Maybe just a summary of your stance. :D
-JavaJones (December 16, 2010, 02:34 PM)
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If you break the law, then you should be prosecuted. The means do not justify the ends. In the case of revelation of legal misconduct, and the inability to report such wrongdoing through the channels that are set up for such things, there can be some leeway. But we are a country of laws, and they are created for a reason. In the case that laws are not broken, such as in Assange's case, it becomes more of a moral issue, than a legal one. Whomever was responsible for the leak is the only one that can be held accountable for breaking their relevant oaths. But Assange made no such oaths, and thus has done nothing of legal consequence.
-wraith808 (December 16, 2010, 02:57 PM)
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You mean the *ends* don't justify the means? How many laws do you know of that you perceive to be unnecessary, unfair, or downright morally wrong? I can think of quite a few. Just because something is a law doesn't mean it's "right". Does it need to be followed? Yes, if you don't want to be arrested and prosecuted. This is tricky stuff though, because legality doesn't equate to morality or "rightness"; legality should not be a universal shield behind which any wrong or right can be obscured. A right can still be right, even if illegal, and a wrong can certainly still be wrong even if legal. What is anyone to do when they see a right being punished or a wrong going unpunished due to issues in the current legal system? Petition their congressman? Good luck with that. When the system has a selfish interest in the status quo and maintenance of power, it's hard to trust it to enact meaningful change. So what options are left?...
- Oshyan
mahesh2k:
It's a "sign of the times", an indication we've gotten to a certain level of dissatisfaction with government and the status quo, that we have this kind of thing happening regularly and on a large scale.
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+1
wraith808:
You mean the *ends* don't justify the means? How many laws do you know of that you perceive to be unnecessary, unfair, or downright morally wrong? I can think of quite a few. Just because something is a law doesn't mean it's "right". Does it need to be followed? Yes, if you don't want to be arrested and prosecuted. This is tricky stuff though, because legality doesn't equate to morality or "rightness"; legality should not be a universal shield behind which any wrong or right can be obscured. A right can still be right, even if illegal, and a wrong can certainly still be wrong even if legal. What is anyone to do when they see a right being punished or a wrong going unpunished due to issues in the current legal system? Petition their congressman? Good luck with that. When the system has a selfish interest in the status quo and maintenance of power, it's hard to trust it to enact meaningful change. So what options are left?...
-JavaJones (December 16, 2010, 03:01 PM)
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Yes, I did... it was a mistype. It happens sometimes. :) I never said that all laws were right, nor that legality equates to morality. I only said that the Rule of Law must be maintained, or what is the use of having laws? And I said that legal channels should be followed whenever possible. The reason that people that bring the true wrongdoings that cannot be taken through correct channels are termed 'heroes' are for having the fortitude to risk everything standing against injustice- and they do so in pursuit of that same Rule of Law. To apply it without regard cheapens the risks and sacrifices those that expose true criminality make, IMO.
JavaJones:
Er, well yes, I agree. So... what are we arguing about again? :D
- Oshyan
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