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I figured something out about Apple's device restrictions: file management.

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JavaJones:
It's not that treat users like idiots, it's more that Apple NEEDS to retain its closed system.  Without the closed system, Apple will not be able to do most of the things it does.-superboyac (December 08, 2010, 05:31 PM)
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I continue to believe this is *not* the case and have yet to see compelling evidence to the contrary. Apple could, if they desired, provide the "best of both worlds". In some senses they do, with a BSD-based OS and a shiny GUI on top of it. But their consumer electronic devices are much less accessible than that, and they are where you actually see most of these restrictions. But they're *not* necessary to maintain the user experience or anything. Tell me, what value is there in renaming all audio files copied to an iPod to obscure file names with 0 useful info, and messing up the Id3 tags? How does that help the user, how is that necessary to make the iPod or iTunes experience better? It isn't. Just one example. There are tons.

In other words I think "Target" may be right on, er, target... :D

I also don't think that file management on Windows is any more "necessary" than on a Mac. What you're probably seeing is different levels of users, of user demand, and of productivity requirements. There are plenty of Windows users I know who don't organize their files, ever. They have messy computers. But I would argue actually that Windows users who don't bother with file management are inherently likely to have more easily accessible files, from an objective standpoint, than Mac users. At least on Windows there are good predetermined organizational structures that fit most people's basic needs (Docs, Pictures, Music, etc. and now on Win7 the handy Libraries). On a Mac almost *everyone* has a messy computer, even more "power users". Period. This is because, as others have said, the tools for organization are crap, and all the Mac apps try to organize data in their own proprietary way. iTunes wants your music where it wants it, same with iPhoto. Try to find your iPhoto photos with another photo app. Good luck. So as long as you're doing it Apple's way, yep, you're fine. But think about this: maybe the reason people *don't* do this stuff isn't just because they don't want to, but because Apple makes it *hard* to do so. One time installing an alternative photo management app and trying to find your iPhoto archive and finding out it's either impossibly lost, or none of your data transfers over, and you can bet you'll never try that again. And it gets ingrained in the culture, because all Mac users over time get trained to work this way and accept it as natural and teach others the same, until nobody expects anything different. It doesn't make it better and it doesn't mean it's necessary for the value that they do indeed provide (nice UI, ease of use, etc. - theoretically at least).

And yes, this is precisely because Apple think their way is best. Because of this attitude and the inherent laziness of most computer users, people - especially Mac users - tend not to bother with file management at all (and I'm not talking about advanced stuff here like changing OS files). This is why Apple can get away with issues like the "2+2=2" problem which, frankly, is inexcusable. Yes, few people actually use file management for anything but *finding* files on Mac (as opposed to *moving* files), but that doesn't mean they should experience unexplained data loss if they do! Apple's attitude sucks.

What keeps coming up in these threads is interesting for me though: almost everyone, whether Apple user or not, tends to equate Apple with "easy to use" and "pretty" and "nice UI", etc. But I wonder quite often whether that first aspect, "easy to use", is really true, or if perhaps there is some level of "shiny" that overcomes most people's ability to see unintuitiveness. Quite frankly I feel this really may be the case. In other words if a device has a sufficiently smooth, slick, *cool* UI, it will give the strong impression of being "intuitive" even if it is not, or is only partially so. In fact I have run into many concrete examples of this, certainly not just in Apple devices. There are many good examples already in this short thread about Apple specifically, and there are tons more I've come across. How can anyone say with a straight face that Apple's devices are "intuitive" given comments like Nosh's about simple file management and re-use? Sure, you could say that's an "advanced" use, but then you really need to be clear that Apple's products are "intuitive to a point" or "intuitive for easy stuff". Which I guess is great, but a lot less of an accomplishment. Basically we're back to the "most Apple users are idiots" thing - they do a good job of making things easy for people who know nothing and don't want to learn anything. Is that good? Maybe.

And then all you may be getting down to is: remove enough flexibility and function and it's easier to make things intuitive. If that's Apple's secret, then I'm not interested in knowing it. It's not revelatory, and not where I want to see computing going. Then again some classic wisdom of design says that removing all but the most vital elements is the way to the best design, so what do I know. Apple certainly has that down to an art. Everything they do handles a narrow problem set with a high degree of polish, and then you hit a wall. Just pray you fall within that narrow problem set that the system is designed for and that you *never grow beyon it*.

- Oshyan

nudone:
after reading all of the above, i can say, once again - i hate Apple even more now. in these cold winters days, this burning hatred is keeping me warm inside. thank you.

Stoic Joker:
And on a Mac all roads lead no where and are unidirectional ... and that's the "wave-of-the-FUture".-Stoic Joker (December 08, 2010, 06:00 PM)
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Freudian typo slip?

:P
-4wd (December 09, 2010, 01:43 AM)
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Actually it did start as a typo, and then I realized it was the most perfect flaw to express my sentiments. ;)

after reading all of the above, i can say, once again - i hate Apple even more now. in these cold winters days, this burning hatred is keeping me warm inside. thank you.-nudone (December 09, 2010, 05:00 AM)
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Damn Straight! JavaJones nailed it... Hell if I wasn't at work, I'd be standing up and cheering!

Darwin:
Hmm, a Mac sounds perfect for my dad.  He can't even figure out how to send a page link with Opera ;)
-kyrathaba (December 08, 2010, 06:49 PM)
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Except that my parents have been using Macs for 13 years (OS 9 through Snow Leopard) and they can never find anything on the damned things! They have no concept of File Management, accepting and trusting that Apple knows where their files and documents should go. Of course, Searchlight or Quicksilver make finding the files fairly easy, but every so often I have to dig around to find stuff for them. Infuriating - I'm always trying to get them to use folders but most stuff winds up on their desktop...

OK typed the above and then kept reading the thread - JavaJones nailed it! My parents have a friend who WILL.NOT.SWITCH.TO.WINDOWS but who has ENDLESS problems with her iMac running Leopard - e-mail settings, printer drivers, print settings, iPhoto... Actually, Java's comments about iPhoto resonated because I've been called out a couple of times to find her pictures for her - she moves them onto her PC from her Canon point and shoot and they disappear. I set iPhoto to scan her harddrive and find them, but then she's stuck with a database of thousands of icons and gets mad because she can't GET to her photos, which are buried somewhere in the database. It's crazy!

I bought my parents first a Compaq netbook running XP Pro with 2GB of RAM and then a Gateway ultra-portable notebook with Windows 7 64-bit and 4GB of RAM. The netbook went to my mum about a year ago and the notebook to my dad in August. They both love them, but I've had to spend time training both of them about Windows file management "idiosyncracies"... At the very least, they appreciate both OS's and can see the strengths and weaknesses of both whereas prior to my dad getting the Windows 7 machine they really assumed that the Mac was easier to use and more secure. I'm rambling.

Superboy - thank you for starting the thread. It's very thought compelling. I have an iBook running Tiger and I've tried a myriad of the third party file management solutions available for it. The ones I liked are EXPEN$IVE and ultimately never overcome the lack of flexibility inherent in how Apple does things. I never did buy one of them because it seems simpler and more cost effective to "go with the flow"... but the point is, that alternatives do exist, as SKA pointed out (and XFileSystem is one of the ones I tried and like). Incidentally, one of the other things that pissed me off about OS X 10.x is that with every release third party developers drop suppport for earlier versions. So there are lots of apps out there that for which paid users are frozen at a particular build because support for their flavour of OSX is no longer supported. One could argue that with Apple's much more reasonable upgrade pricing this wouldn't be a particular problem. However, Apple has a tendency to drop support for earlier hardware means that users with older computers are not able to upgrade the OS, either. What's the end result? Apple sells shiny new computers to the Apple faithful fairly regularly (at least, those who wish to keep their systems up to date). Of course, this also means that Apple does not have to worry about shipping their latest OS with a huge number of drivers so that they can control the hardware and drivers effectively and provide the "it just works" experience they brag about. As noted, it just works as long as you keep the whole eco-system up to date. Try connecting a ten year old printer to a new Mac!

superboyac:
Some great discussion happening here.  I'm going to have to respond later.  I have to study for a big promotional exam for the next two days.

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