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Author Topic: Limewire shutdown, permanently  (Read 10821 times)
Josh
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« on: October 27, 2010, 04:25:33 PM »



Quote
File-sharing program LimeWire has been permanently shut down after a federal judge found it guilty of assisting users in committing copyright infringement "on a massive scale."

The shut-down is the final chapter in a case brought against LimeWire LLC by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) over four years ago.

The suit, filed by the RIAA on behalf of eight major music publishers in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York, charged LimeWire with facilitating "pervasive online infringement." It also accused LimeWire of allowing and actively encouraging users to participate in music piracy.

During the court proceedings, the plaintiffs claimed that over 93 percent of the software's traffic was made up of infringing content.

In May 2010, federal Judge Kimba Wood found LimeWire LLC liable for copyright infringement. She also found LimeWire founder Mark Gordon to be personally liable. The RIAA then made two separate motions--one for permanent shut down of the company, and the other for freezing of the company's assets.

More at source
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2010, 07:25:32 PM »

Hmmm... I wonder what this means for the bittorrent protocol.
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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2010, 07:28:24 PM »

Quote
File-sharing program LimeWire has been permanently shut down after a federal judge found it guilty of assisting users in committing copyright infringement "on a massive scale."

Hmmm... I wonder what this means for the bittorrent protocol.

And the HTTP Download protocol

And the FTP download protocol

And any protocol that allows files to be shared to other users

And any website that allows this (RapidShare, MediaFire, MassiveUpload)

All youtube videos containing homemade music vids to popular music

Etc, Etc...
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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2010, 07:35:38 PM »

Quote
File-sharing program LimeWire has been permanently shut down after a federal judge found it guilty of assisting users in committing copyright infringement "on a massive scale."

Hmmm... I wonder what this means for the bittorrent protocol.

And the HTTP Download protocol

And the FTP download protocol

And any protocol that allows files to be shared to other users

And any website that allows this (RapidShare, MediaFire, MassiveUpload)

All youtube videos containing homemade music vids to popular music

Etc, Etc...

Sadly, I think you're right.

I wonder how long it will be before they try to tax bandwidth just like they taxed blank CDs.
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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2010, 08:03:37 PM »

I see a key difference here between all of those other protocols and services like limewire, kazaa, bearshare, etc.

Bit Torrent, HTTP, FTP, etc. were all designed with data distribution in mind. While there was always the underground which had illegal software (shareware copies of scorched earth anyone?) being distributed, it was the minority. The difference nowadays is that many of these tools are designed with piracy in mind. While it is not placed on the homepage of said products directly, you can tell that this is the case when you read the support forums or look at some of the features being implemented.

I have no issues with P2P as a technology, but I do have a problem with programs which are clearly designed to bypass copyright and distribute products illegally. HTTP, FTP and Bit Torrent were NOT designed with this in mind. HTTP was for web traffic, FTP for file transfer (site-to-site) and bit torrent for distributed data distribution. Bit Torrent is largely used by many corporations for data distribution. Microsoft, Sun, Various movie distribution sites use it.

I see a clear distinction here between these services, protocols and technologies when compared to the vast majority of P2P programs out there.
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2010, 09:52:12 PM »

@Josh

Good points. (My own software is pirated over bit torrent.)

I'm just curious if at some point we'll see a "tax" like we have on blank CDs. Dunno.
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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2010, 09:07:01 AM »

At the end of the day, people will ALWAYS pirate software, music, videos, and anything else they possibly can.

Limewire shutting down doesnt bother me in the sence that its LIMEWIRE, one of the WORST P2P software apps in known history, containing NOTHING but virus's, spyware, adware, and generally crap content.

There are still plenty of other options for P2P software.

The fact the RIAA has won 1 case doesnt say much, as it has taken them 4 years to win it against ONE company...yet look at the likes of PirateBay...they have tried and tried and tried, but will never succeed...and thats because people CARE about pirate bay as there is a whole lot of legitimate content on there.

Torrents are currently used by large games manufactorers to distribute large game clients and patch addons so they do not have to use a seperate line just for the downloads section.  These companies do also offer P2P, HTTP and FTP but the torrent ones are the most chosen because, generally, the company has also written a small utility that when downloaded, will download the torrent for you at maximum possible speed (Negating the need to download BitLord/BitComet etc) - Unlikely those games companies (TQ & Sony to name but 2) would be very happy if the RIAA tried to shut down Torrents all together  Thmbsup
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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2010, 09:17:45 AM »

Apart from game updates being distributed with BitTorrent (Blizzard WoW patches was the first time I saw this), there's lot of other legit content as well:
Quote from: rtorrent
*  debian-506-i386-DVD-1.iso
*           done     4459.2 MB Rate:  82.3 /   0.0 KB Uploaded: 182964.1 MB                 [T  R: 41.03 low]
* Tracker: [Tried all trackers.]

...and opposed to an application like LimeWire, there's numerous programs around implementing the torrent protocol, so there's not a single company to target, no single control server - and there's trackerless support for bittorrent as well.
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« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2010, 10:10:04 AM »

I use utorrent to download anime (bleach to be precise). Why ? because there is no way i can get this anime in my country. It took 10 years to reach DragonballZ to hit television channels in india. I'm still waiting for the DVD's so you can see that torrents are heaven for those who like animes. Tite kubo (who writes bleach anime) has no issue with the distribution of this anime. I don't think everyone has issue against torrent distribution. Sad to see limewire going down.
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« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2010, 10:16:15 AM »

Sad to see limewire going down.

Yes, but only from the fact that the RIAA won a case.

Other than that, I am not sad to see the back of limewire...that is the main cause of n00bs getting bad viruses and thier computers filled with spyware.
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« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2010, 10:26:06 AM »

I download animes from torrent softwares/sites and never got any virus or malware from it. Torrent gives you option to see file format before you download it. These videos have .rmvb extension to it and as i download it from trusted subtitle makers group there is no chance of virus/malware.
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« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2010, 10:49:19 AM »

<snip />
The fact the RIAA has won 1 case doesnt say much
<snip />

Actually, it does, and it's one thing that people seem to ignore/be ignorant of.  A long view approach to such things is to build up a mountain of prior rulings.  In judicial environments, prior rulings hold a *lot* of weight, making your case stronger/eroding your opponent's position.  Any defeats/successes are relevant to the larger picture going forward.
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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2010, 01:09:43 PM »

<snip />
The fact the RIAA has won 1 case doesnt say much
<snip />



Actually, it does, and it's one thing that people seem to ignore/be ignorant of.  A long view approach to such things is to build up a mountain of prior rulings.  In judicial environments, prior rulings hold a *lot* of weight, making your case stronger/eroding your opponent's position.  Any defeats/successes are relevant to the larger picture going forward.


Countless defeats + 1 win ... The math is the key.

Yes, previous rulings certainly hold a whole lot of weight, but if you had a lawyer who had those statistics to his name, you would fire him and hire a new one...if you even hired him in the first place.

I think the next 6 months will tell us what we need to know and it might be worthwhile keeping  a close eye on proceedings from the RIAA.  I will certainly be looking more into what they are up to, and if I find anything interesting, I will be posting it here cheesy
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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2010, 02:20:28 PM »

Countless defeats + 1 win ... The math is the key.

Countless?  I think you're overstating the case a bit smiley
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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2010, 02:25:40 PM »

Stephen, if one case shuts down a service which, while not ADVERTISED to support piracy but information is found which demonstrates the service is intended to be used for such or that over half of the users are using it for such activities, then this could be groundbreaking. Other services would not stand a chance once a case has been won.
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2010, 02:28:56 PM »

Stephen, if one case shuts down a service which, while not ADVERTISED to support piracy but information is found which demonstrates the service is intended to be used for such or that over half of the users are using it for such activities, then this could be groundbreaking. Other services would not stand a chance once a case has been won.

Like I say, it will be interesting to see what the next 6 months have to bring.
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2010, 03:15:34 PM »

I agree that Lime wire had a lot of viruses, garbage, etc., but with some worthwhile downloads.  I also know that our legal system is based on case law, which gives heavy emphasis on past judicial opinions/rulings.  This is a chilling ruling.  While I agree that it is illegal and immoral to pirate software, I also realize that shutting down an entire site instead of going after the individual offenders is chilling.  This is, in my humble opinion, not unlike what the ISP's, most notably Comcast, did to bit torrent some time ago, when they actively throttled all bit torrent traffic, punishing all users. Anything that came from bit torrent was throttled indiscriminately. So, all users were punished, the guilty and the innocent.  That to me is tantamount to closing all banks and punishing all customers because some customers are using that institution to illegally launder money from illegal ventures/activities. That kind of activity should not be allowed/tolerated.  The FCC realized this and immediately ordered Comcast to cease and desist from indiscriminate throttling of bit torrent traffic.  Unfortunately, because of major errors in their legal defense area, on appeal a federal judicial panel ruled in favor of Comcast.
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2010, 03:19:43 PM »

This ruling, to me, has far reaching implications, none of which appear very good.  Lime wire should, if they are able, appeal this ruling all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States.
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2010, 03:32:34 PM »

It's a sad day, if we've reached the point where we allow government to so blatantly squash the rights of the multitude in the act of supposedly putting a stop to limited illegal activity of the minority.
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2010, 04:30:01 PM »

Just clarify this a bit - Limewire is a P2P program AFAIK, not a network.  It uses the gnutella, (and BitTorrent), network for information dissemination/retrieval.

The gnutella/BitTorrent networks will still continue to be used, there are other P2P programs that use the same networks, (eg. Cabos, FrostWire, Shareaza).

I agree that Lime wire had a lot of viruses, garbage, etc., but with some worthwhile downloads.  I also know that our legal system is based on case law, which gives heavy emphasis on past judicial opinions/rulings.  This is a chilling ruling.

It's already been done before - think Napster.

Quote
That to me is tantamount to closing all banks and punishing all customers because some customers are using that institution to illegally launder money from illegal ventures/activities.

No it isn't, the correct analogy would be if they closed all banks in one town, (or even a state), because one bank was laundering money.  Yes, it's inconvenient for the townspeople but it doesn't stop them from getting their money from the banking network.

They made the injunction against Limewire because its use was predominantly synonymous with pirating. As soon as some other program is stupid enough to do the same thing and they're within the grasp of the RIAA/MPAA then it'll happen again.
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2010, 06:22:29 PM »

Just clarify this a bit - Limewire is a P2P program AFAIK, not a network.  It uses the gnutella, (and BitTorrent), network for information dissemination/retrieval.

The gnutella/BitTorrent networks will still continue to be used, there are other P2P programs that use the same networks, (eg. Cabos, FrostWire, Shareaza).

I agree that Lime wire had a lot of viruses, garbage, etc., but with some worthwhile downloads.  I also know that our legal system is based on case law, which gives heavy emphasis on past judicial opinions/rulings.  This is a chilling ruling.

It's already been done before - think Napster.

Quote
That to me is tantamount to closing all banks and punishing all customers because some customers are using that institution to illegally launder money from illegal ventures/activities.

No it isn't, the correct analogy would be if they closed all banks in one town, (or even a state), because one bank was laundering money.  Yes, it's inconvenient for the townspeople but it doesn't stop them from getting their money from the banking network.

They made the injunction against Limewire because its use was predominantly synonymous with pirating. As soon as some other program is stupid enough to do the same thing and they're within the grasp of the RIAA/MPAA then it'll happen again.

Im waiting for the guys down at TPB (The Pirate Bay) to make themselves a P2P software just to pour petrol on the fire lol
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« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2010, 06:38:56 PM »

"Chilling" -- Seems like a very appropriate description.

I find the situation oddly analogous to guns... I know... Somebody is sighing out there, but just hear it out...

Guns are weapons. Their original and primary intended purpose is to kill. This is not a debatable point.

The original intended object of the killing is people. Again, not an issue for debate.

Today, the intended object of killing is 1 of 3:

  • People (murder/war)
  • Animals (hunting)
  • Targets, as in paper targets and the like

Now, nobody really objects to guns being used for target practice. (Ok, a slight exaggeration, but close enough.)

Guns are merely instruments, tools.

In the same way, software is merely a tool.

Now, I can write keylogging software, and nobody will be upset. However, if I use that inappropriately, well, mission control, we have a problem.

Gun control in Canada limits civilians to small arms like hunting rifles and shotguns, except for registered collectors. In the US, you can have military-grade small arms like M-16s or whatever -- fully automatic weapons.

Is the "attack" on Limewire an attack on "guns" in general, or is it an effort towards "gun control"?

Here are a few analogs that we need to figure out first:

Guns :: Limewire
Fully automatic guns :: Limewire
Guns :: Software
Fully automatic guns :: Software
Weapons :: Limewire
Weapons :: Software
Military (large) weapons :: Limewire
Military (large) weapons :: Software

Gun control :: Limiting software in a particular category or with a particular feature set
Gun control :: Limiting software

Killing :: Stealing
Killing :: Downloading
(Note in these 2 analogies the object is not stated.)


Some of those comparisons are simply nonsense, e.g. "Fully automatic weapons :: Software".

But depending on which view you take, you may end up at a different conclusion.

Remember, it used to be illegal to export encryption in the US as encryption was categorized as military weaponry. Today it's a different story.

Back to the issue...

Perhaps you've seen the bumper sticker:

Guns don't kill people. I do.

Which is a parody of:

Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

The analogy is:

Software doesn't steal copyrighted material. People steal copyrighted material.

Is that applicable?

Now, if you were to manufacture a gun and market it as "the people stopper", you'd clearly be saying that it is good at killing people. However, this is essentially already out there. The McMillan company is a popular manufacturer of sniper rifles, for which their intended purpose is to kill PEOPLE. Again, "sniper rifles are for killing people" is trivial and not an issue for debate. "Snipers kill people" and "hunters kill animals".

So we know that there are already weapons out there with the primary intended purpose of killing people.

Does that differ from the case where you have software with the primary intended purpose of stealing/downloading copyrighted material?

To what degree would you go with the gun analogies? If at all? Or further?

If you believe in gun control, I'm willing to be that you also side closer to the RIAA on this issue, while if you don't believe in gun control, you likely side closer to Limewire's position. (Comparatively in the context of that sentence, that is, and not necessarily in a broader context.)

Or perhaps, like me, you believe in gun control in one form or another, but are more inclined to view restricting software like this as a potentially dangerous path to go down. I'm kind of undecided at the moment. My fear is that this will be used as a platform to launch broader attacks on software: i.e. As the legal system is built upon precedents, this follows.

I'm in the software game as that's how I make my living. So it's not in my best interests to have people stealing/downloading my software without paying me. I need to get paid so that I can pay my bills. At the same time though, I'm concerned about limiting freedom. It's a tough issue, and I'm not sure exactly where I stand on it at the moment.

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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2010, 07:13:24 PM »

I find the situation oddly analogous to guns... I know... Somebody is sighing out there, but just hear it out...

Yes, that would be me....

It would have been better if you had based your analogy on the knife - this is much closer to the mark.

A knife is a tool whose use is mostly benign as opposed to a firearm, (not gun, they are a subset of firearms), as you have pointed out, whose purpose isn't.

By making the comparison to a firearm you are immediately saying that the software was created intentionally to be malignant, ie. for pirating.  As such, you should have no problem with it being put down.
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« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2010, 08:09:15 PM »

I find the situation oddly analogous to guns... I know... Somebody is sighing out there, but just hear it out...

Yes, that would be me....

It would have been better if you had based your analogy on the knife - this is much closer to the mark.

A knife is a tool whose use is mostly benign as opposed to a firearm, (not gun, they are a subset of firearms), as you have pointed out, whose purpose isn't.

By making the comparison to a firearm you are immediately saying that the software was created intentionally to be malignant, ie. for pirating.  As such, you should have no problem with it being put down.

My analogies are by no means complete above. You've pointed out a different one that is more inclined towards the Limewire case or inclined towards a more objective view. I meant for the gun analogy to be extreme and skewed towards the RIAA case (gun control), hence my initial warning about laughter/sighing. smiley (Gun control seems to me to be similar to invoking Godwin's law -- an extreme case.)

The McMillan analogy nicely points out the contradiction in the court ruling though, which is where I wanted to go. i.e. If you accept things at face value (the RIAA case/perspective), then why should McMillan be allowed to produce weapons with obvious malign intent? It's ok for these fellows over here, but not these other fellows?

Ahem... Rule of law perhaps?

But, I think you're right that "knife" would make a better analogy for an objective look at the topic. "Firearm/gun" is skewed and points out hypocrisy.

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« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2010, 08:35:40 PM »

An important fact frequently overlooked: The RIAA only sues if the network or software is run by, developed by, or supported by a for profit company.

They have yet to go after anything open source, such as Ares (they tried before it went open source and dropped it as soon as the developer slapped a GPL on it and uploaded the source to Sourceforge) or WinMX (they tried there too, but the company "shut it down" and walked away as soon as they got a cease and desist letter, the users resurrected it and run it themselves now)

The problem for the RIAA in those 2 cases is they don't know who to sue. How do you stop an open source project that essentially belongs to the world and can be forked into a million similar projects by anyone that wants to? How do you stop a bunch of people in a bunch of countries that have taken it upon themselves to host peer caches in order to keep an old abandonware running, knowing if they receive a cease and desist letter, all they have to do is comply and pass the job of running a peer cache to someone else in another country? Overnight, it moves and is run by someone else. It's a game of cat and mouse, where the mouse always wins.

Napster, Kazaa, Limewire were all for profit companies that were easier targets and the RIAA could profit from if they won.

As far as torrents, as long as there is at least 1 open source torrent client/tracker, it can't be stopped. The RIAA can attack individual sites that run trackers, but if they manage to take one down, ten more pop up the next day to replace it, because the open source software to enable that is out there in the wild and distribution of that can't be stopped.
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