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Last post Author Topic: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple  (Read 35856 times)

superboyac

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2010, 07:20:31 PM »
OO...another epic by Oshyan!  Well, all good points.  It's funny, the strength of the PC is it's weakness: the modular-ness of it with distinct lines between OS/software/hardware.  There are infinite ways for people like us to use it.  Apple's strength is it's weakness also: tight-control, little flexibility, but pretty great overall product.

Currently...as in, right now...I think Apple has the advantage.  We're at a point where simplicity and elegance is very welcome.  This wasn't the case in the early 90's and 2000's.  Back then, we were discovering computers and everything we can do with them.  Then there was a huge boom, and an equivalently huge bust.  Now, it's Apple's turn.  They've come out of the ashes and have boosted up to the top.  Google and Microsoft are not the pristine companies they once were a few years ago.  Google's search is largely a chaotic mess. Microsoft has made a couple of significant blunders.  Apple is riding a streak of impressive successes.

But Apple will not last forever, of course.   I believe it's a cycle.  I think they are going to do really well in the near future, maybe for another decade or so.  But, their fundamental strength/flaw--the isolated, closed system that their products are in--will eventually have to change.  If they don't change, they will run out of innovations.  If they do change, it means they have to start opening up (like the Intel chip thing in their computers).  So as the years go by and they become more open, they will be less like the Apple of today, and more like the PC of last decade.  Then, other opportunities will open for other companies.  It's a cycle.

As manufacturing advances are made, smaller companies will be able to build competing products that will rival the big boys like Apple in build quality, and offer a more open structure.  That's what I see happening.  It's the one weakness Apple has.  It's the one that will be exploited.  Just like Apple exploited the complexity of the PC universe with their elegance...someone is going to exploit Apple's restrictive system.

But I don't think it will happen soon.  This decade belongs to Apple.

johnk

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2010, 07:46:21 PM »
Apple makes good hardware. Whether it's worth the price is an individual decision.

I hate Apple for other reasons.

Best example: A while back I bought a Nano (mainly because it could be Rockboxed) and I stupidly allowed iTunes to import my music collection.

Without asking permission or informing me, iTunes wrote gibberish into my MP3 tags (to get slightly more technical, iTunes wrote code into my comment tags to enable gapless playback, a good iTunes feature).

Now if you looked at the MP3s in iTunes, everything looked perfectly normal. You could read the tags. It was only when I used different software to play my MP3s that I saw the gibberish in my tags. Completely unreadable.

That's the problem. The underlying assumption that, if you're an Apple user, you don't use anything else. Ever.

And that's why I don't generally use Apple stuff. Apart from.....

A couple of weeks ago my brother decided that having three iPhones (!) was too much, so he gave me his 3G. It is a lovely bit of hardware. Very stylish. But I was surprised at how slow it can be. Dreadful lag sometimes. And rubbish battery life. Wifi reception is poor. The built-in email app can't even hide folders. And for an Apple product, it seems to crash a lot...I could go on. But I will keep it. Why? The apps. It's all about the apps. It's never about the hardware, it's always the software. I preferred my Nokia E63 in many ways, but Symbian software is no match for the Apple apps. Already I couldn't live without iPeng...

Darwin

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2010, 08:24:45 AM »
Speaking of iTunes and music, not only does it mess up the tags, moving songs onto an iPod and then off again onto a different computer also creates an epic mess - the filenames themselves are overwritten! I backed up the music off an iPod Nano for the son of a friend who wanted to switch to a non-Apple mp3 player. All the fileneames were like: fE45.mp3 and the tags couldn't be read without iTunes either, so his 4GB music collection had to gone through song by song to figure out what was what and re-tagged before being transferred onto his new device.

I know we could have used iTunes to sort the mess out, but at the time I was in an absolute no iTunes is getting anywhere near my Win7 machine... (I also could have told the kid to get on his bike and sort the mess out at home, but he didn't have his own computer at the time)!
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

f0dder

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2010, 08:29:48 AM »
Speaking of iTunes, be very, very, VERY careful if you ever connect a device to another person's iTunes account - you risk ending up getting your content wiped because of the synchronization shizzle.
- carpe noctem

Darwin

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2010, 08:54:09 AM »
Good point, f0dder. The transfer I made was via Windows Explorers - as stated, I had/have a loathing for iTunes that borders on irrational and am very hesitant to install it on my compter. I'm glad you brought this point up, actually, because it means that I'll be extra vigilant as another friend's son has asked me to help him update his iPod Touch to iOS 4.2. My plan was to install iTunes, update him, and uninstall iTunes. I might try doing it in XP Mode, which will hopefully minimzie the risk to both his music collection and my computer! Doubt it, though... I'll just have to be VERY careful to set iTunes up properly before doing this for him.
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

f0dder

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2010, 09:01:08 AM »
You definitely do have to be careful. My girlfriend just upgraded her iPhone4 firmware the other night, which was pretty much a disaster. The upgrading process didn't seem to start, making the Windows USB connect/disconnect sounds. So she unplugged the phone... which resulted in it half-bricking, just telling her to connect the phone to the computer to get the firmware updated. Problem being that she uses her iPhone for internet connection...

Luckily she was able to borrow a lil' bit of internet connection love from a neighbor so she could update&unbrick the phone. Only to realize that all her settings and files had been wiped (this is of course pretty normal firmware update procedure, but apparently iTunes hadn't warned her enough about this).

Fortunately, and this is the one saving grace for that piece of crap system, iTunes had made a backup (without asking, of course) of the device at some earlier point in time, so she didn't lose much/anything in the end.
- carpe noctem

superboyac

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2010, 09:25:16 AM »
You definitely do have to be careful. My girlfriend just upgraded her iPhone4 firmware the other night, which was pretty much a disaster. The upgrading process didn't seem to start, making the Windows USB connect/disconnect sounds. So she unplugged the phone... which resulted in it half-bricking, just telling her to connect the phone to the computer to get the firmware updated. Problem being that she uses her iPhone for internet connection...

Luckily she was able to borrow a lil' bit of internet connection love from a neighbor so she could update&unbrick the phone. Only to realize that all her settings and files had been wiped (this is of course pretty normal firmware update procedure, but apparently iTunes hadn't warned her enough about this).

Fortunately, and this is the one saving grace for that piece of crap system, iTunes had made a backup (without asking, of course) of the device at some earlier point in time, so she didn't lose much/anything in the end.
Yes.  This happened to me also when I first got my ipad.  I almost freaked out.  It's the USB thing, I think you have to fight the urge to unplug when the USB system tray guy starts wigging out during the update.  if you pull it out (lol) you mess everything up and you have to reset the ipad.

fodder, I didn't realize that about using other people's itunes.  I think I may just jailbreak this thing.  I really don't care much for itunes.

f0dder

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2010, 09:28:37 AM »
fodder, I didn't realize that about using other people's itunes.  I think I may just jailbreak this thing.  I really don't care much for itunes.
I'm not sure exactly what leads to it, but I'd assume it's connecting your iWhatever to a machine that's logged in to somebody elses iTunes account. I've stayed clear of iTunes and apple devices, so never happened to me - but I've had a couple of friends moaning because of it :). And the renaming woes Darwin mentioned is one very good reason I'll never buy an iPod or whatever... give me something that shows up as removable storage, pzlkthxbai.
- carpe noctem

Darwin

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2010, 10:43:22 AM »
Ouch! That is good to know, f0dder (about the update woes). Given that the kid has a second generation iPod Touch, I wonder if it's really necessary for him to upgrade, other than to have the latest and "greatest" OS? AFAIK, he barely uses the thing and his father - who spoils him ROTTEN - is quite likely to be buying him something newer in the near future, probably a Galaxy Tab.
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

JavaJones

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2010, 04:25:43 PM »
See, look at these last 8 posts or so. HOW is this considered intuitive, problem-free, etc? Are these problems that only people trying to do "weird" stuff run into? Not necessarily! And none of these things are *necessary* for maintaining the integrity of the Apple ecosystem, they're only necessary if you want to exercise fanatical control. It's hard for me to believe that people swallow the Apple line of "simpler, better" given issues like these that I hear about *all the time*...

- Oshyan

superboyac

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #60 on: December 02, 2010, 04:50:08 PM »
I think the hard part for people like us to relate to is deactivating our computer minds when we use computers.  Other people just simply do what the screen tells them to do.  So for them, if you don't fight it and let Apple do whatever it wants to do with your iphone/itunes, it usually works just fine.  These people are not normally trying to do "complicated" things like secure wifi connections, etc.  Seriously.  They just plug their thing in and obediently follow the directions.  They don't question them.  They don't wonder why it has to be this way.  They don't try to think about better alternatives.  It's all very passive.  And that doesn't make them dumb or worse than us.  They just don't give a shit about computers.  That's the Apple crowd.  Just like I don't give a shit about cars.  I use my car, but I never think about tweaking anything, nor do I care, nor do I want to think about it.  I don't want to care.

So we can't really criticize Apple for making things simple and catering towards those users.  Apple is not designed for people like us.  I'd love to force it to do things I'd want it to, but I can't say Apple is wrong for doing it that way.  Apple doesn't care for people like me, just like car companies don't care about guys like me.

superboyac

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #61 on: December 02, 2010, 04:53:46 PM »
Also, the other weird thing now is that the Apple/PC lines aren't so clear cut anymore.  Apple has reached so many new users the past couple of years, that their way of doing things is slowly going to have to get a little more complicated than they are used to.  It's inevitable.  More users, more issues to resolve.  Like that configuration utility I mentioned, there are going to have to be more things like that.  Now that makes Apple a little more complicated, and less simple.  A few more of those and the line between simple Apple and complicated PC becomes grayer and grayer.

JavaJones

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #62 on: December 02, 2010, 04:59:37 PM »
Sorry, but no, I'm specifically *not* talking about knowledgeable computer users here. I am talking about people who, for example, plug their iPod into a friend's computer, maybe thinking (not entirely unreasonably) that they can have some of their friend's music (issues of copyright aside!). If it then syncs and wipes out their music, well that is *not cool* and *not intuitive*. No maybe it *does* properly warn them, I don't know I've never run into this, but it's still a pretty wretched practice. Likewise with the completely unnecessary renaming of files by iTunes. Every other media system seems to do fine with the built-in tags of most media files. iTunes, on the other hand, wants to do it in its own proprietary database, subject to corruption, hard to transfer, and certainly near impossible to export to another media system should you ever want to migrate. Of course this is just one of the ways they use to keep people locked-in, but I think it's pretty hard to argue this as a benefit to the consumer, it's clearly done almost solely - if not solely - for lock-in purposes.

And yes I agree things at Apple are getting a bit more complicated. :D Soon they may reach the limit of what they can do within the bounds of their market's knowledge level and their ability to and/or interest in handling support, etc. Hm... Maybe there's an inherent "stupidity level" beyond which Apple will have a hard time growing its features and functionality. Interesting thought.

- Oshyan

Stoic Joker

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #63 on: December 02, 2010, 05:01:19 PM »
@JavaJones - Nice to see this thread getting back on topic... ;)

You definitely do have to be careful. My girlfriend just upgraded her iPhone4 firmware the other night, which was pretty much a disaster. The upgrading process didn't seem to start, making the Windows USB connect/disconnect sounds. So she unplugged the phone... which resulted in it half-bricking, just telling her to connect the phone to the computer to get the firmware updated. Problem being that she uses her iPhone for internet connection...

Um... Wow .... That is unbelievable. Given the uber simplistic attitude that surrounds the things you'd think they'd have (anticipated that eventuality) a device that would cache the entire update before doing the bouncing disconnection dance. Instead of trying to (juggle chainsaws) do the download and the update at the same time (that's just flat stupid) It can't be that hard, HP does it with the firmware updates on the big MFPs (Multi-Function Printers). First the new firmware is pushed to the machine via the spooler, and then (assuming it got there intact...) it auto-reboots and applies the new firmware. At the very least they should have done a check to let the user know that the route they're about to take is headed for a cliff...

Luckily she was able to borrow a lil' bit of internet connection love from a neighbor so she could update&unbrick the phone. Only to realize that all her settings and files had been wiped (this is of course pretty normal firmware update procedure, but apparently iTunes hadn't warned her enough about this).

...Normal for what? Or am I missing the sarcasm? Routers sure...If the settings aren't totally wiped, it's usually best to reset and redo them. But the iPhones "firmware" which Apple also calls the iPhone OS (at the convenience of what type of hype/excuse they're trying to make) should not have any impact on user data/settings if it is indeed an OS...which is being upgraded. Once again, HP can manage to pull this off, and there are a shit load of settings on those big MFP when you start considering all of the available network options they have available now to tie into AD/LDAP, Kerberos/SSL authentication, SMTP, Network shares, etc. Ya know...All the stuff Apple sucks at.  :D

Stoic Joker

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #64 on: December 02, 2010, 05:03:59 PM »
if you don't fight it and let Apple do whatever it wants to do with your iphone/itunes, it usually works just fine

That same pitch can be made for sodomy in a prison shower... :)

Renegade

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #65 on: December 02, 2010, 08:00:51 PM »
if you don't fight it and let Apple do whatever it wants to do with your iphone/itunes, it usually works just fine

That same pitch can be made for sodomy in a prison shower... :)

Bwahahahahahaha~!


That was awesome~! :D
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Darwin

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #66 on: December 03, 2010, 02:06:22 AM »
Indeed!
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

f0dder

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2010, 08:38:10 AM »
Instead of trying to (juggle chainsaws) do the download and the update at the same time (that's just flat stupid)]
In fairness, it probably did - but most firmware update apps I've come around warn pretty heavily that you must not disconnect the device at any time while update is in progres. My guess is that the update downloaded fine, device is put into "nuke yourself, bend over and accept the firmware load", and then she discoed it when it ran all usb-happy on her. When trying to restart the firmware update procedure, iTunes probably WANTS to be connected to the net to check if there's a new firmware available, even if it has just downloaded the most recent one.

All guesswork, of course, but thinking as a short-sigghted developer, it would seem likely :)

Lucki
ly she was able to borrow a lil' bit of internet connection love from a neighbor so she could update&unbrick the phone. Only to realize that all her settings and files had been wiped (this is of course pretty normal firmware update procedure, but apparently iTunes hadn't warned her enough about this).
...Normal for what? Or am I missing the sarcasm? Routers sure...
Routers, and all FW-upgradable phones I've owned (S/E k500i, S/E k700, Nokia MusicExpress 5310 (was decent and even survived a week trapped in a snowman last winter!) and a S/E Elm (most recent, most bestest, lovin' it!). All user settings and user data stored in internal phone memory has been wiped.
- carpe noctem

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #68 on: December 03, 2010, 10:41:25 AM »
Good point, f0dder. The transfer I made was via Windows Explorers - as stated, I had/have a loathing for iTunes that borders on irrational and am very hesitant to install it on my compter. I'm glad you brought this point up, actually, because it means that I'll be extra vigilant as another friend's son has asked me to help him update his iPod Touch to iOS 4.2. My plan was to install iTunes, update him, and uninstall iTunes. I might try doing it in XP Mode, which will hopefully minimzie the risk to both his music collection and my computer! Doubt it, though... I'll just have to be VERY careful to set iTunes up properly before doing this for him.
Even better than trying XP Mode (IMO) is to install VirtualBox, create a Microsoft XP VM, install iTunes on that, and then when you go to remove it all, you can delete it all in one go.  Moreover, VirtualBox uninstalls much cleaner than iTunes if you want to get rid of that too (though it is quite useful for a myriad of things beyond iTunes  :D)

Darwin

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #69 on: December 03, 2010, 10:46:06 AM »
Hmm... thanks for the pointer, steeladept, I'll give it a look. Truth be told, I am running out of rationalizations for keeping XP Mode installed. For all intents and purposes I never use it. Once a month MAX and then only to play with File Managers that I don't want to install and muddy up my Win 7 install...
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

Edvard

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2010, 07:01:37 AM »
...
But you know what?  None of the other companies have made any tablets nearly as nice as this one.  Do it already!  But it's going to be hard to compete with that build quality and that screen with the great multi-touch responsiveness.
...
Try poking around here:
http://androidpads.com
Some of these (particularly the Archos, which also sells a 9" Windows version) have been getting very good reviews about the touch response but all of them seem to have beaten Apple to the price line.
I'm not saying ANY of these are going to be the iPad killer, no not in the near (and maybe not-so-near) future anyways, but it's a darn good start...

johnk

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #71 on: December 06, 2010, 10:34:37 AM »
I think the opposition are going to find it very difficult to match the iPad, much more so than the iPhone.

The iPhone is (arguably) priced at a very high premium -- there's plenty of room for the opposition to work.

But the iPad is different. For me it's the first time Apple have gone into a market without a very heavy price premium (when you consider the hardware), making it difficult for the opposition. The (iPS) screen on the iPad wipes the floor with the current opposition. iPS panels are not cheap, that's why you see so few monitors using them. The iPad screen is so good that some photographers are using them as occasional/second monitors.

Mostly, though, it's (as always) about the software. One of many examples: newspaper and magazine publishers have been waiting for a long time for third-party hardware to arrive that would be the ideal e-publishing mechanism. A lot of the big players seem to have decided that iPad/iTunes is the one, for now at least. The only real opposition? The Kindle. There'll be lots of commercial arguments with Apple, sure, but publishers trust Apple to produce first class kit and a shopfront for their wares. The fragmented Android market will find it difficult to make the same promise to publishers.

superboyac

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #72 on: December 06, 2010, 10:50:36 AM »
johnk, you're right about that ipad screen, it's amazing.  This ipad is a wonderful supplement to my computing habits.  I still find it funny that for around $700, I think the ipad is the best GPS device you can find if you put the Copilot app on.  And the most expensive dedicated GPS units are in the $600-700 range.  On top of that, you get the amazing multi-touch.  Am I being a fanboy?  I hope not, this is the truth.  I'd say the same for PC hardware and software.  And with the jailbreaking option, the ipad is the most flexible and powerful tablet you can get right now.

Darwin

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #73 on: December 06, 2010, 11:18:00 AM »
Well... c'mon! This screen argument is analogous to the Super AMOLED vs Retina Display vs AMOLED display argument that keeps going around WRT cell phones. We're talking about 3.5" to 10" displays here. In isolation, are any of these screens going to "disappoint"? I doubt it. Not to beat a dead horse, by the lowly AMOLED 3.8" screen in my HTC 7 Surround may be vastly inferior to Super AMOLED or Retina (or iPS) but who cares? Unless I'm playing "mine is bigger than yours" with a Galaxy S owner, I'll struggle on in blissful ignorance. I don't know if this argument "scales" up through 7" and 10" devices, so I may be speaking out of my...

However, having said that, I don't think that the iPad faces any significant opposition right now. MS needs to get a tablet OS/tablet version of Win 7 out the door if they want to be in the game while Android 2.2 (Froyo) and 2.3 (released today?) are still not optimized to run on tablets. The Samsnung Galaxy Tab is superior to the iPad on paper - spec-wise (at least WRT RAM and ports/features) - but is hamstrung by the OS and is, in my opininon, significantly overpriced (if Samsung wants to take on Apple in this market segment, they should be more competitive on price). Meanwhile, the Archos 9 Windows tablet has a restrictive screen! And a not very sensitive one at that... It also runs Win 7 Starter (or whatever it's called - no idea how well that works) . Archos' Android tablets are let down by Android issues and match the iPad on hardware spec WRT CPU and RAM. They do beat the iPad in other features, though - HDMI out, USB ports, microSD slots. In my not-so-humble opinion, they should have doubled the RAM, particiularly if they want to be in a position to upgrade these devices to Gingerbread (Android 3.0, which WILL be tablet ready, apparently).

So, from the perspective of the end-user, the Apple product "just works"! Android tablet adopters are fighting buggy FW releases, mis-matches between the OS, developed for mobile phones, and the tablet that it's running on, and Windows 7 tablet users really don't have many choices - these things don't really exist in the wild. I don't think this situation will start to turn around until the Spring of 2011, which will have given Apple a full year's lead and no dobut iPad 2.0 will be out, heavily improved.
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 11:21:03 AM by Darwin »

tomos

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Re: Five Reasons Why People Hate Apple
« Reply #74 on: December 06, 2010, 02:19:06 PM »
... I'll struggle on in blissful ignorance. I don't know if this argument "scales" up through 7" and 10" devices, so I may be speaking out of my...

not to make an extra big deal out of the screen quality or anything:
I got a 22" IPS screen (matte) at the beginning of this year - once you've gotten one, you get a lot more critical of 'regular' TFT screens.
while I can understand your slating the importance in a 4" display, I think in a 10" screen it would be a factor. Especially if you're looking at videos/films or even just for photographs. I really think they got that right, cause once you get used to it you just think everything else is crap :)

From one of the comments in johnk's link:
I'm a bit curious what the specs will be on Asus's new 12.1 inch pad.. they've been putting IPS LED Backlit displays in sub $300 netbooks..
Tom