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ALL cloud applications should offer downloadable installs.
steeladept:
I think the question you have to ask yourself before spending time trusting your data and workflow to such online sites is: how easy will it be for me to get my data out of this service and import it into another if i want to leave. if the answer is not easy, then avoid it. the ideal case is a hosted service that also offers the option to install their open source software on your own or a community run server if you need to at some point.
-mouser (July 13, 2010, 11:38 AM)
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Agreed. The ideal way, in my opinion are the services that provide the infrastructure and a VMware container (it is so ubiquitous as to be a standard, not unlike MS Office formats). Then you can load your own server (or buy it already set up off them) and work from there. If you want to leave, take the entire VM and go to another provider. Of course I don't know of too many of those and most of them are very expensive, catering to enterprises that insist (rightly so) to maintain complete control of the server.
Getting back to the Original Post, however, from the way I read it, the problem is not so much in maintaining a server in the cloud, as much as a service. And here it gets MUCH more sticky.
superboyac:
It's not unreasonable at all to charge for their service of hosting and managing these things -- they offer many benefits. But the lack of control over your data and the lock-in and helplessness is a serious concern.
I think the question you have to ask yourself before spending time trusting your data and workflow to such online sites is: how easy will it be for me to get my data out of this service and import it into another if i want to leave. if the answer is not easy, then avoid it. the ideal case is a hosted service that also offers the option to install their open source software on your own or a community run server if you need to at some point.
-mouser (July 13, 2010, 11:38 AM)
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Thanks mouser, you said it much more eloquently than I did. I am not an expert in this stuff, so I don't know the details. But my feelings are in line with what mouser said above. With normal, local software I just try them out and play around without worries. With the cloud stuff, there is so much more hesitation and too much to worry and think about. Even $5 a month is a serious commitment...especially when you're just fooling around and seeing what's out there, which is me 80% of the time.
JavaJones:
The "bait and switch" problem is a different kettle of fish. It is common but not universal to "cloud computing", and pay-from-the-start services are increasingly common as cloud computing is legitimized. So while I agree with the issue you state, I don't see it as a fundamental problem with cloud computing itself, rather as a separate issue and a business practice to avoid when possible.
Choosing a system with open data formats is a concern *all the time*. Don't make the mistake of assuming this is an issue unique to cloud computing platforms. Is it a bigger one there? Very debatable. What if your desktop app goes unsupported and a new OS upgrade makes it not run properly anymore? How many times have we heard that problem come up here at DC? (the answer is a lot :D)
Fortunately many cloud providers do have at least partially open data formats. Google is a great example, generally speaking. You can get all your Gmail, Gcal, Gdocs, and more data out of Google quite easily with a myriad of standard clients because they support standard protocols. For free. Try getting your mail out of Yahoo without paying them. :-\ Now granted Google are a particularly good example, there are services that make it much harder, but there are plenty of others that also support open formats. Zoho is another example.
As for affordable hosting options, you really get what you pay for. There is cheap shared hosting that *could* run some of these systems (and I've run sophisticated CMS's off of them before), and there is also higher quality "pay as you go" (more expensive, but still potentially cheap depending on how much you need) like Amazon S3. There are options out there, but you can't get awesome service for ridiculously cheap, it just doesn't work that way. And if you were on the other end of the equation, with a potential customer asking you for the moon in exchange for a pittance, I imagine you might be a bit miffed about it. :D
If you want to host yourself, the only way you're going to make it *cheaper* than a hosting service is if you do it through your home broadband connection. That carries with it issues with bandwidth, reliability, uptime, power usage (leaving a computer on all the time for the occasional remote use), and more. There are efficiencies that can be realized with distributed, load-balanced computing clusters that you just can't get at home. Your up-front, obvious costs may be lower, but in the long-run it may work out the same or even in favor of the cloud service, believe it or not. It's like the age-old Mac argument - they cost more up-front, but less to maintain. For the average person *this is probably true*. For a tech-savvy person it's less so, and I've never bought Macs partly for that reason (even though they can now run Windows, my preferred OS, and are generally nicely designed systems). But getting into hosting is a lot more complex than just running apps on your desktop. Getting something served out to the world in a way that is simultaneously easy to access *and* secure on your own is a tough challenge. Is it worth the time, hassle, and risk vs. a $5/mo service? Arguable.
All that being said I am not a universal lover of cloud services either, and in fact have always been highly skeptical of them as a "panacea". Apps like Picnik and Photoshop Online are cool for example, but will never (IMHO) replace desktop apps, at least for the heavier users (not necessarily *professional*, just "heavier"). I think the key is to separate legitimate concerns from simple fears or lack of familiarity, and then make educated decisions on what services make sense and are worth the cost. Seen in that light, some cloud services make sense and are worthwhile, others are not. Google Apps are IMO a no brainer because even if they don't remain free forever, I can get my data out of them, period. Essentially the same points hold true for desktop apps!
- Oshyan
superboyac:
Well said Java!Try getting your mail out of Yahoo without paying them.
-JavaJones (July 13, 2010, 01:46 PM)
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This is possible. I posted about the "secret" somewhere here in the forums. And it's not using a third-party tool like ypops or anything. :Thmbsup:
If i find myself needing to go to the cloud more and more, like I am seeing, I may consider buying my own $100 hosted server. I'd build it myself at home, but I simply don't have the bandwidth. Or maybe I should consider getting a business-speed line for an additional cost? Or maybe I can build a server for my sister's house who has FIOS? FIOS has great upload speeds, but is it good enough for hosting cloud applications? What are the specs of these hosted servers that is so different from a typical home ISP line?
wraith808:
Maybe check this thread?
https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=23383.0;topicseen
That might be what you're looking for.
-wraith808 (July 13, 2010, 10:18 AM)
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I looked into the platform, and it seems that they're doing exactly what you wanted... just wanted to post that again as I didn't see your response to it, so thought you might have missed it. And it's free :)
If you need more than that, PM me. I purchased a server for exactly this reason, and I'm parceling it out to help pay costs...
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