News and Reviews > Best E-mail Client
The Bat! (Some constructive criticism)
superboyac:
I thought I would offer some constructive criticism for the Bat! in an effort to bring to the forefront some of the issues that I have with it, considering that I just migrated to it after nearly 10 years of dedication to Pegasus Mail. The Bat really is the most powerful email client available and I'd like to do what I can to further make it the best and most complete email client available. There may already be solutions to some of the problems I mention, and if you know it, please don't hesitate to share it here. Being a rookie, I'll admit that i haven't figured everything out.
(1) My first issue is the navigation through the message lists or folders. My problem mainly arises when you double-click a message to view it in a separate window. There are two buttons (Follow Next/Previous) and what they do is use the date of the email to go to the next/previous email in the folder. I find this confusing because "Next" really means the next oldest, and "Previous" means the previous newest email. In other words, the Next button will send you back in time chronologically, and the Previous button will send you forward in time Chronologically. I like to read my email in chronological order, so I want next to mean the opposite of what it's doing. This wouldn't be a problem if those two buttons followed the order that the mailbox is sorted in the window, because then the user can control what the buttons mean simply by changing it's sorting method. But that feature is not available. The only way this can be done is if you use the "up/down" key while scrolling through a mailbox with the message preview pane on. But it would be nice to navigate the same way USING BUTTONS when messages are opened in their own window.
(2) Hotkeys: programs this powerful generally have a sizeable amount of keyboard shortcuts (hotkeys). The Bat is no different. However, most of the hotkeys are preassigned and cannot be changed (except for a handful of "System" hotkeys). I'm of the opinion, that they should allow the user to make the hotkeys fit their needs. No big deal, but why not?
(3) Selective quoting in replies. This is a feature I got used to in Pegasus. When you reply to a message, typically the entire message gets quoted using the ">" symbol. In Pegasus, if you highlighted a portion of the original message and then hit reply, you have the option to only have the highlighted portion quoted. I know that you can just delete the parts you don't want, but it was a real handy feature.
(4) The Help file: initially, I was extremely disappointed by the help file that comes with the Bat. However, I later realized that it's better than I gave it credit for. But it still is not as good as it should be. I strongly believe that any checkbox and any word that is found anywhere in the preferences or options, should have the exact same word somewhere in the help file with a description of it. Why add toggles and features and not explain it in documentation? I think I couldn't find the descriptions of several optionsin the help file or anywhere else. Also, next to the OK and Cancel buttons in the preferences dialog, there is also a Help button, but all it does is take you to a screenshot of that particular part of the dialog without any explanation of the options there. The best way to do this, personally, is to have that little question mark button in the upper right hand corner, where you can click it, then click on a option, and have a little ballon explain what that option does.
Also, going back to keyboard shortcuts, the Bat has a lot of them, but there's no section in the help file that lists them all. They list a few of them, but not all, like they should. Fortunately, someone else in their forums has compiled a supposedly complete list of them, but it should be an official part of the help file.
Anyway, that's it for now. I don't mean anything derogatory by all this, I'm doing this in hopes of helping others and helping the developers improve their program. It's obvious that they care about power and customizability since they have put so many features into their program, so adding some more should be right in line with their philosophy. Any advice/suggestions is appreciated, and as I become more experienced with the program, I will add more to this thread.
mouser:
i think this is a great idea; i hope we do more of this on this site.
while i might not have the same needs as you, i think the sentiment is right on the money; thebat is great but it still needs some tweaking. good news is they do seem to be very active developing it.
regarding quoting - i was just talking to author of mobysaurus about quoting options. it may be possible to make a macro in thebat that does what you want as well..
allen:
The Bat really is the most powerful email client available and I'd like to do what I can to further make it the best and most complete email client available.
-superboyac (January 30, 2006, 10:47 PM)
--- End quote ---
It truly is. I used it from version 1.x through early 3.x until after I lost years of e-mail and configurations that I didn't have backed up (I know, I know, backup...). I just haven't been willing to go through trying to start from scratch, not yet anyway. I keep my license key current just in case, though. ;) If you're willing to spend some time learning her ins and outs, there's nearly nothing you can't do. The documentation is clearly lacking, but The Bat! has a very active and knowledgeable e-mail discussion list -- you'd do well to check it out. Also, you might want to repost this -- the developers do read and comment on the lists.
(1) There are two buttons (Follow Next/Previous) and what they do is use the date of the email to go to the next/previous email in the folder. I find this confusing because "Next" really means the next oldest, and "Previous" means the previous newest email.
--- End quote ---
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am pretty sure that is controlled by the sort order. When you're viewing a message, you can view the message list by clicking view > message list or something to that effect. Give you a look at how they're sorted. I may be wrong, but I believe you can have a separate folder view setting for the main message list and for the popup message list display. That may be why your results are somewhat unexpected? Conflicting view settings?
Hotkeys: programs this powerful generally have a sizable amount of keyboard shortcuts (hotkeys). The Bat is no different. However, most of the hotkeys are preassigned and cannot be changed (except for a handful of "System" hotkeys). I'm of the opinion, that they should allow the user to make the hotkeys fit their needs. No big deal, but why not?
--- End quote ---
Fortunately for you, you're totally wrong on this point ;) It's not immediately obvious, but try this: Right click on your toolbar, select "customize". Here, you can modify any of the toolbars and/or menus in TB, including the assigning of hotkeys/shortcuts.
Selective quoting in replies. This is a feature I got used to in Pegasus. When you reply to a message, typically the entire message gets quoted using the ">" symbol.
--- End quote ---
Actually, TB does support this. It's in the right click context menu under Message, i think. Should be . . . F4 to quote selected text. Maybe. I know the feature is there, anyway.
(4) The Help file:
--- End quote ---
The help file has been a source of nagging for TB users for as long as I can remember -- almost a decade. While they've made some strides in recent years to update the help file, it still falls short. I don't know if they'll ever catch up. There are a few user made help sites and the mailing list -- those are what have kept the bat going -- it can be a bit daunting without a little help and those sources do help, especially for getting a handle on the more advanced features.
Here is an excellent source for TB related information, including the TBUDL mailing list.
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/tbfaq.html
superboyac:
Allen, thank you. You really know the program well!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am pretty sure that is controlled by the sort order. When you're viewing a message, you can view the message list by clicking view > message list or something to that effect. Give you a look at how they're sorted. I may be wrong, but I believe you can have a separate folder view setting for the main message list and for the popup message list display. That may be why your results are somewhat unexpected? Conflicting view settings?
--- End quote ---
Hmmm...I really can't find what you are talking about. Maybe it's different for the newer versions of the Bat or something, but I can't find any popup message list, nor can I find where the view settings are that control the next/previous settings. I see where the "view modes" are, but changing the default sorting there doesn't seem to affect how the next/previous buttons work. I'm having such a hard time with this. I posted this issue in the Bat forum like 3 or 4 separate times, and no one has suggested a thing. I can't figure it out. If you can look into it more, I'd really appreciate it. My problem is that I'll open a message, and I know how the list is sorted (because I did it, obviously), but then I'll click next/previous, and I'll get lost because the buttons ignore my sorting method. I mean, it shouldn't be this hard to simply go down and read messages as I've sorted them.
Fortunately for you, you're totally wrong on this point Wink It's not immediately obvious, but try this: Right click on your toolbar, select "customize". Here, you can modify any of the toolbars and/or menus in TB, including the assigning of hotkeys/shortcuts.
--- End quote ---
Yes, I was completely wrong. I see that now, so that's great.
Actually, TB does support this. It's in the right click context menu under Message, i think. Should be . . . F4 to quote selected text. Maybe. I know the feature is there, anyway.
--- End quote ---
Ah! Beautiful! I kind of had a feeling I just missed this one. Problem solved.
The help file has been a source of nagging for TB users for as long as I can remember -- almost a decade. While they've made some strides in recent years to update the help file, it still falls short. I don't know if they'll ever catch up. There are a few user made help sites and the mailing list -- those are what have kept the bat going -- it can be a bit daunting without a little help and those sources do help, especially for getting a handle on the more advanced features.
Here is an excellent source for TB related information, including the TBUDL mailing list.
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/tbfaq.html
--- End quote ---
Of course, I'm aware of the FAQ and the forum. I've posted there a few times already. But it's a little inconvenient to have to search forums to find the explanations to settings and options in the program. I really feel that the help file should cover that. Forums are more for ideas and problems that the developers couldn't anticipate.
Ok, thanks again, allen. It looks like you've solved all of my problems so far, except for this sorting/navigating business. Hopefully, we'll find the answer to taht also.
allen:
Allen, thank you. You really know the program well!-superboyac (January 31, 2006, 10:19 AM)
--- End quote ---
Spent quite a few years in it -- it's come a long way, in terms of usability, if you can believe it.
Hmmm...I really can't find what you are talking about. Maybe it's different for the newer versions of the Bat or something, but I can't find any popup message list, nor can I find where the view settings are that control the next/previous settings. I see where the "view modes" are, but changing the default sorting there doesn't seem to affect how the next/previous buttons work. I'm having such a hard time with this. I posted this issue in the Bat forum like 3 or 4 separate times, and no one has suggested a thing. I can't figure it out. If you can look into it more, I'd really appreciate it. My problem is that I'll open a message, and I know how the list is sorted (because I did it, obviously), but then I'll click next/previous, and I'll get lost because the buttons ignore my sorting method. I mean, it shouldn't be this hard to simply go down and read messages as I've sorted them.
--- End quote ---
Ok, in my copy here clicking follow next makes it move to the next message in the message list -- next being down. Previous makes it move to the previous, previous being up. So if I sort chronologically by date with older messages on the top and newer messages on the bottom, pressing follow next will take me to the next message by date. If I reverse that sort, putting new messages on top, the next message will be the older one. The follow buttons don't actually follow date, necessarily. They follow your message list from top to bottom and back based on your sorting order. If you're reading the messages in folder view (click on a message in the main window and it pops up in folder view) you may not see a list of messages, instead you'll see only the message you're viewing. To view the message list go to view -> show message list. See if it is following the order that folder is sorted by -- if so, you can just change the order by clicking the column you want once or twice to insure it's pointing the messages in the right order. Remember, it'll read top to bottom when you're following. If I'm misunderstanding or not being clear, we can exchange some screenshots or something. There's some good software for that right here on this website ;)
Of course, I'm aware of the FAQ and the forum. I've posted there a few times already. But it's a little inconvenient to have to search forums to find the explanations to settings and options in the program. I really feel that the help file should cover that. Forums are more for ideas and problems that the developers couldn't anticipate.
--- End quote ---
The help file should cover a lot of things it doesn't, but it's always been an afterthought to the developers -- and it shows. People tend to often get frustrated with rit's development process -- at least at the end of the day, there's a good application in hand though. As for the forum, I have no idea -- never been there. I was actually talking about the e-mail discussion list 'TBUDL' -- which is where the real Bat geeks hang out. Of course, if I can answer your questions I'm more than happy to--not trying to chase you there. I'm just saying, I'm not the -best- man for the job. I'm a little rusty, haven't used TB in a while. Although you're making me strongly consider it again, I miss it. You should see what you can do with the reply templates with a little regex/tweaking ;)
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