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Last post Author Topic: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7  (Read 15860 times)

cmpm

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2010, 09:35:56 PM »
Something's screwy on the install of W7.

A few questions....

Why would a language bar come up without an office program?
Did you update any drivers through windows update-
ie-device manager-right click-update drivers.
Video controllers and ide controllers and network cards.
Are you running as admin? Even then sometimes I have to right click and choose 'run as admin'.

It would be smart I think to disconnect any drives that you are not installing W7 on, then reconnect.

W7 works best to use a password to logon, a requirement for some things to work right.

Also is this an upgrade W7 dvd? Then you have to have vista or xp already on the drive and working. The install options will let you do a clean install by choosing custom install. It will save your old version as windows.old.

And as xp it may take a bit to get the auto updates, or you can run windows update manually through the control panel where it has it's own update program, it's also in the start menu. But that will not cover all your hardware like via device manager. Stay away from third party driver updaters for now as well. Unless you have to, like I did for some things on the laptop. amd/ati needs too much attention.


cmpm

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2010, 09:47:53 PM »
One more thing, any third party software should be investigated before using it with W7. Outpost has some incompatibility issues I saw in a google search. Don't know for sure why.

Let W7 run with it's own security for a while till it's updated. I received numerous compatibility updates after the install. Give it a few days to adjust I'd think.

tranglos

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2010, 09:55:55 PM »
One more thing, any third party software should be investigated before using it with W7. Outpost has some incompatibility issues I saw in a google search. Don't know for sure why.

Let W7 run with it's own security for a while till it's updated. I received numerous compatibility updates after the install. Give it a few days to adjust I'd think.

I didn't install a firewall, and after a while I even uninstalled Kaspersky, mostly due to its general slowness. You are right; it seems like a good idea to run without too much third-party stuff. In my case, I had from Friday afternoon to Sunday night to get everything running smoothly. It's been Monday for less than 5 hours here and I already have work waiting for when I wake up. So I wanted to do as much as I could in the time days that I had, and somehow running without an a/v seemed too preposterous to entertain :)

I'm safely back on XP now, though ShadowProtect did screw up one thing and wasted me a few hours. I'll post about this tomorrow, because my experience may help others.

tranglos

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2010, 10:08:43 PM »
Something's screwy on the install of W7.

Clean fresh install though, with no ancient third-party software on it (yet), just Office and some crucial shareware.

Quote
Why would a language bar come up without an office program?

It's a standard feature of Windows, dating back at least to XP, but I think 95 may have had it as well. Like I said, maybe it's only activated on localized versions of Windows. It's not a part of Office. It's a toolbar that installs on the taskbar, next to your "quick launch" items. It has buttons on it to select input language and keyboard, in case you have more than one keyboard installed. On XP it's a good idea to disable it, because it's easy to accidentally do something that causes Windows to change the input language, and suddenly I can no longer type in Polish. However, if you are a translator like myself, or if you are simply bilingual, this is useful, since you can very quickly alter between different languages, which may require different keyboards (say, English and Russian, or even English and Spanish to get the accents).

Quote
Did you update any drivers through windows update-
ie-device manager-right click-update drivers.
Video controllers and ide controllers and network cards.

Who knows what Windows Update installed! I just let it run its course, so it prompted me a few times to reboot, but nothing major. There is no way to know beforehand if a particular update will mess things up, and trying them one by one would take ages. I hoped at this time the updates wouldn't be excessively bad - but then again, I should have done what has kept me safe so far: wait for the first service pack.

Quote
Are you running as admin? Even then sometimes I have to right click and choose 'run as admin'.

Yes, I was running as admin, with UAC set to default until I ultimately disabled it today.

Quote
It would be smart I think to disconnect any drives that you are not installing W7 on, then reconnect.

Just like it would have helped to unplug the secondary monitor, yes. But really, this is just voodoo to placate a crazy OS. I won't be stooping to unplugging internal drives, unplugging the monitor is where I draw the line :)


Quote
W7 works best to use a password to logon, a requirement for some things to work right.

I used the same username/pass as I had on XP. Kept LAN settings at whatever the installer made them. I had connectivity from the get-go, and everything else had to wait.

Quote
Also is this an upgrade W7 dvd? Then you have to have vista or xp already on the drive and working. The install options will let you do a clean install by choosing custom install. It will save your old version as windows.old.

Clean install, preceded by wiping the XP system drive and creating new partitions. You cannot upgrade XP to Seven, the installer refuses to do it (and I wouldn't try anyway).


cmpm

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2010, 10:17:38 PM »
lol...yeah, I know how it is.....
with xp it would take a day to be ready for anything (within reason)
and be up and running quickly after a format and install

Perhaps partition 100gb or so, and put W7 on it, keeping XP.
Rebooting will want to go to W7, unless you choose the 'old version of windows' as it states on bootup. Kind of cocky with their own old OS!

Then when your ready, run W7, perhaps leave it up while you are away so it can update. Check the screensaver and power settings to your liking. They were not right on both my laptop and desktop at first.


tranglos

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2010, 10:33:39 PM »
Surely the issue is a BIOS issue - how can windows enable dual monitor access before it even starts up?

Well, in my case it was truly weird, but Windows *was* already up, in its own way. The PE environment is practically a fully-capable Windows, and it certainly has all the hardware support it needs. The strange thing was that during one phase of the installation, a short while before it prompts for the product key, it switched to the other monitor - the one that the video card considers secondary. I'd love to have an explanation for it.

The thing is, this is potentially an awful time-waster. My secondary monitor happened to be powered on only because I was creating my final backups in XP, then rebooted to the installation DVD, and didn't bother powering it off. If I had shut down the system first, I would probably have turned off both monitors using the power buttons, and it's as likely as not that the secondary monitor would have stayed off for the installation. If that had happened, I would not have seen the installer switch monitors. When the primary monitor went blank as it did (no signal), I'd have thought the installer crashed or hung, and I might have restarted the installation from scratch (and cursed profusely!) until it would have dawned on me to power on the other screen.

There is a programmer at Microsoft who needs some... re-education :)

cmpm

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2010, 10:38:20 PM »
A safe way to turn off Windows Defender if you want to-

Open it in the control panel-
Go to options.
Uncheck
Automatic Scan
Real time Protection
every box in Advanced
every box in Administrator

This will stop Windows Defender without removing it.
Windows Defender could be causing trouble.

-edit-

Gizmo must be reading this, lol....

http://www.techsuppo...ontent=Google+Reader

btw, it took 3 installs on my desktop and two on my laptop to get it right

I screwed up some things and had to reinstall, but I learned a couple of things I hope.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 11:09:07 PM by cmpm »

Carol Haynes

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2010, 03:36:47 AM »
I used the same username/pass as I had on XP. Kept LAN settings at whatever the installer made them. I had connectivity from the get-go, and everything else had to wait.

That's probably why you have permission issues - the computer name will not be the same as the old XP set up and the Workgroup won't be the same either (XP defaults to MSHOME and Windows 7 defaults to WORKGROUP workgroups) so if you have other connections with shared folders you probably won't see them.

Permissions are set by user name and computer name so that could account for the saving files and keeping settings issues - though why this is happening without an error message popping up I don't know.

Curt

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2010, 04:18:53 AM »
If you guys are trying to scare me from upgrading to W7 then you're doing a fine job!  :o

Carol Haynes

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2010, 04:49:24 AM »
I have to say I upgraded from a clean install of Windows Vista HP to Windows 7 Pro and I have had absolutely no issues at all.

I guess the best way to upgrade is to do a clean install and also make use of the files and settings wizard to move data to the new system or else make sure that your network settings are identical to your earlier installation to avoid broken permissions and shared folders.

Eóin

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2010, 06:14:25 AM »
If you guys are trying to scare me from upgrading to W7 then you're doing a fine job!  :o

Win7 is flawless here for me on a range of machines, laptops and a netbook so don't panic just yet

Curt

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2010, 09:00:58 AM »
- so what may be the reason cmpm and tranglos are having a quite different experience?

Oh, yes, that really IS the question, isn't it

Darwin

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2010, 09:10:17 AM »
- so what may be the reason cmpm and tranglos are having a quite different experience?

Oh, yes, that really IS the question, isn't it

Like Carol, I upgraded from Vista (Ultimate) to Windows 7 (Ultimate). I did this on October 12 and have had no problems whatsoever. I *think* the answer to Curt's question probably lies in the fact that we both upgraded from clean Vista installs (I believe Carol did a clean Vista install, as I did) whereas cmpm and tranglos upgraded from XP, no?
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Lashiec

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2010, 09:16:34 AM »
- so what may be the reason cmpm and tranglos are having a quite different experience?

The answer is simple: YMMV :)

cmpm

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2010, 09:23:10 AM »
I really didn't have problems, except for loading incompatible programs, and playing around with things I knew nothing about on the OS. Which was just to experiment.

All my data files are on my seagate 640gb external, tranglos is dealing with internal drives that has data, I'm quite sure.

With a custom install, which I did, w7 doesn't try to migrate xp anything into w7. It archives it into a file called windows.old. So it's a clean install, and windows.old can be deleted.


Eóin

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2010, 10:14:44 AM »
The harddisk issue is just simply that the files were created on another OS and so aren't owned by the Win7 user accounts.

In honesty UAC does need a bit of a attitude change but almost all cases of improving security there is some increased effort on behalf of the user.

Also a guess about the hot keys, perhaps they weren't setup with the application running with admin privileges hence those hot keys don't apply to privileged process. Only a guess but it would be the most appropriate behavior. User applications shouldn't be allowed disrupt admin programs.

Carol Haynes

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2010, 10:31:22 AM »
- so what may be the reason cmpm and tranglos are having a quite different experience?

Oh, yes, that really IS the question, isn't it

Like Carol, I upgraded from Vista (Ultimate) to Windows 7 (Ultimate). I did this on October 12 and have had no problems whatsoever. I *think* the answer to Curt's question probably lies in the fact that we both upgraded from clean Vista installs (I believe Carol did a clean Vista install, as I did) whereas cmpm and tranglos upgraded from XP, no?

Yep - I did a clean install of Vista Home Premium (which was supplied with my system) and then upgraded it first to Win 7 HP (without serial code - I modified the Win 7 Pro DVD to allow all versions to be installed which gave access to the HP version) and then used "anytime upgrade" to move to Win 7 Pro (with key and activation).

The reason I did it that way was to preserve Vista drivers in Windows 7 that clean setup couldn't find (which included special function key settings etc.).

It has all worked fine ever since.

Curt

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2010, 12:05:39 PM »
The harddisk issue is just simply that the files were created on another OS and so aren't owned by the Win7 user accounts.

- can this be solved by mass re-writing of the attributes?

Eóin

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2010, 02:02:53 PM »
I believe that you select the disk and go 'Properties >> Security (T) >> Advanced (B) >> Owner(T) >> Edit (B)' where (B) is a button and (T) a tab. Then select your user account, tick 'Replace owner on subcontainers and objects' and click ok. One or two folder like system volume info might give an access error but just click continue.

Disclaimer, I'm no expert, this has never caused me any issues but I can't promise it's perfect.

4wd

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2010, 10:07:29 PM »
... whereas cmpm and tranglos upgraded from XP, no?

Moving from XP to Win7 is always a clean install, there is no upgrade, (what happens after that comes under YMMV as Lashiec said :) ).

I've done the same thing, XP Pro -> Win7HP, generally positive result but a few annoyances regarding things that were just so much easier to do under XP.

eg. sharing folders for access by anyone is a lot easier under XP.

Carol Haynes

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2010, 02:53:47 AM »
eg. sharing folders for access by anyone is a lot easier under XP.

??? Really ??? Is it so hard to type Everyone and click three boxes ???

Actually I found the simple sharing feature in XP a PITA - half the time it didn't work at all and had to be turned off to set up sharing manually.

If you have multiple computers with Windows 7 use Homegroup which makes it very easy.

f0dder

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2010, 03:33:29 AM »
OK, here's a few things to consider.

Apps failing to write userdata: this sounds serious, and weird - haven't run into it myself, so I'm a bit stumped as to why it might be happening. Read something somewhere sometime (:)) that you can end up in weird situations if you install your apps with UAC disabled and then re-enable UAC, but... *shrug*

Hotkeys: there's several ways to define these, one of them has the possibility to override existing hotkeys (ie., built-in Win+X). This method requires setting up a system hook, injecting DLL into all processes, (try to) un-register hotkey in all processes (because you don't know which one has registered the hotkey), and then re-register the hotkey. It should be obvious why this won't work for elevated apps if the I-want-hotkey app is running from a LUA. Doesn't explain some of the Win7 hotkey weirdness fully, though!1

Permissions on secondary drive: this has already been mentioned by Carol and Eóin, but needs a slight clarification: it's not because of acccount/computer name, but the SID (not GUID, they look slighty similar but aren't) assigned to your user account; if you upgrade Windows, the SID should carry over, when you do a fresh install you get a new (random) one. This is not a Windows 7 thing, but rather it's generic NT. You'll see the same if you carry an NTFS-formatted USB drive to another computer. Too bad there's no built-in "really take ownership and fix permissions of all these files, and get rid of the orphan SID".

Monitor woes: sounds weird too, defining primary monitor works fine on my win7 installation.

Win+{up,down} is a YMMV thing - I really like the behavior, as I often go between maximized and "restored" state. Maximized firefox is awful on a 1680-wide screen :)

1: I override Win+F to locate32 and Win+E to xplorer2, but in some applications those hotkeys are overridden - even though those apps aren't elevated! I'm pretty stumped as to why this happens, but I think it might happen in apps programmed in MFC.
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4wd

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2010, 08:29:08 AM »
eg. sharing folders for access by anyone is a lot easier under XP.

??? Really ??? Is it so hard to type Everyone and click three boxes ???

Compared to one checkbox and clicking OK, yes.  Plus it just worked all the time here and it's so bl**dy slow to access the shares under Win7 from other computers not running Win7, (obviously a subtle prod by MS to get you to upgrade all your computers).

Quote
If you have multiple computers with Windows 7 use Homegroup which makes it very easy.

And if you don't, it's a PITA.

f0dder

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2010, 08:50:41 AM »
Compared to one checkbox and clicking OK, yes.  Plus it just worked all the time here and it's so bl**dy slow to access the shares under Win7 from other computers not running Win7, (obviously a subtle prod by MS to get you to upgrade all your computers).
"Simple sharing" in XP never worked very well for me in a non-homogenous LAN... definitely not as no-brainer as the simple read/read-write sharing you could do in Win9x... thus I always ended up doing things properly, with matching user accounts (and passwords!) on all the involved machines... which is a PITA if you've got a lot of machines and no domain controller.

"Slow to access on non-Win7 machines" - in which way? Slow transfer rates, or is it "just" the initial connection that takes some time to establish? Haven't experienced slow transfer rates, but (on multiple Windows versions) I've had slow initial-connect delays when user accounts and/or security settings didn't match across machines.
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Darwin

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Re: Just discovered a HUGE annoyance in Windows 7
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2010, 09:09:28 AM »
Ditto for me, WRT folder sharing with XP. It was one checkbox but it only worked about 30% of the time, and this was when networking three XP machines. Drove me nuts. Haven't had a problem with 7 and Vista.
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