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Last post Author Topic: Who should judge Win7's success?  (Read 16069 times)

Innuendo

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2009, 11:07:16 AM »
Windows 7 is, basically, Vista with a unusable task bar. So I can't see a sense in "upgrading".

Please reserve all judgement on Windows 7's task bar until you have actually used it. While it looks lame and uninspiring in screenshots I have found it to be spectacular in use & I could never go back to the Vista taskbar.

If you have actually used it and still don't like it then that's your right.

Innuendo

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2009, 11:14:03 AM »
According to the recommendations, it takes at least twice as much of resources. :P

Real world experiences with me and people I know have shown that Windows 7 takes less resources than Vista and in most cases runs on PCs as well or better than XP did.

Quote
I performed studies myself. The one I performed them with was I. You see, if you are keen with a certain way to handle your OS (having been using Windows since 1996), it is a huge loss of productivity if you'll have to change your behavior entirely.

No more actual "task" bar, no more classic start menu; two big disadvantages for me. Of course, computer newbies (starting with Vista or sth) won't have these problems.

So this is more about your reluctance to change & adopt new usability and ergonomics than about Microsoft's new OS then? Things change. User interfaces are refined and usability is improved...if you give them a chance. There's a small amount of time with less productivity until you get used to the new way of doing things, but after you've learned the new way your productivity will have increased.

If you don't want to like Windows 7 then do it for a real reason. Don't knock Windows 7 just because Microsoft didn't include the Windows 95 interface which is near 15 years old.

Innuendo

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2009, 11:22:27 AM »
However, if MS REALLY wants a hit on its hands, they should do something about their pricing scheme. From what I've seen, Windows 7 will be very expensive.  If MS took a page from Apple's playbook and released a single DVD with all flavours of Windows 7 on it and one license key for a flat sum of $100-200, it would sell like hot cakes. Instead this is the price point for lower-end version UPGRADE LICENSES, which will still require clean installs. Not smart marketing in my opinion.

Darwin, I agree with everything you say in this post in principle, but the reality is that the biggest percentage of Windows users, the great unwashed masses if you will, don't care how much Windows will be selling for on the shelves. They typically buy a machine from Dell, HP, or someone else and use whatever OS is on it till it is time to upgrade the machine. Then they go out and buy a new computer repeating the cycle. They never upgrade the OS on its own, but only when they buy a new computer.

Of the people who do buy OS upgrades, most of them are the techy nerd crowd & they are savvy enough to know that buying an OEM copy is where the smart money is so the on-the-shelf pricing doesn't affect them, either.

In my opinion, the only ones who pay the high prices of retail upgrade copies are those who have more money than sense & like the high prices so they have something to brag about to their friends, i.e. "Yeah, I just bought that new Windows 7. It cost me $499, but I don't care. I just used the money I found in my couch cushions."

Darwin

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2009, 11:43:42 AM »
but the reality is that the biggest percentage of Windows users, the great unwashed masses if you will, don't care how much Windows will be selling for on the shelves. They typically buy a machine from Dell, HP, or someone else and use whatever OS is on it till it is time to upgrade the machine. Then they go out and buy a new computer repeating the cycle. They never upgrade the OS on its own, but only when they buy a new computer.

Can't disagree with that!

I agree with you, too, about resource usage. Also, to add, when I updated to Windows 7 from Vista I first removed temp files and system restore points to free up disk space on the target drive (C). When I started the inplace upgrade to Windows 7, I had 16.5 GB free space on that drive with Vista Ultimate 64 installed. After the upgrade to 7 Ultimate 64 was complete that same drive had 21 GB free. After I deleted the inplace upgrade folders, I wound up with 22.6 GB of free space. Thus, my experience is that 7 has a smaller disk footprint as well.

Real world usage shows that my CPU cores are less taxed than they were under Vista and that ACPI and CPU temperatures are quite a bit cooler under Windows 7. The GPU operating temperature remains unchanged. I haven't tested battery life yet, but will over the coming week.
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

Tuxman

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2009, 11:49:21 AM »
If you have actually used it and still don't like it then that's your right.
I'm glad to tell you that I will make use of this right then...

Innuendo

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2009, 05:42:29 PM »
I'm glad to tell you that I will make use of this right then...

Vive la diffĂ©rence and all that. :)  I will say I don't buy into everything MS has put into Windows 7. For example, while I welcome all the UI changes in Windows 7 I still don't use Explorer for file management. I still rely on Total Commander for that & you can't get any more 'classic' than that. ;)

JavaJones

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2009, 06:22:13 PM »
Things change. User interfaces are refined and usability is improved...if you give them a chance. There's a small amount of time with less productivity until you get used to the new way of doing things, but after you've learned the new way your productivity will have increased.
Is UI configuration and function an absolute in terms of productivity? Or is it a preference? I happen to think it is very much a preference. Different people work best in different ways. XP and Vista both gave users a choice as to how they wanted to work with the Start Menu and Task Bar. Win7 removes some of that. Is that progress? Depends on your perspective I guess.

There is nothing wrong with you liking the changes and feeling that, if you give them a try and get used to them, you'll probably like them. But what if someone (like me) has tried them, for quite a while (several months now), and still doesn't like this new way of working? Are they wrong, or is MS wrong for removing options? Did they need to remove options to enable some other new function, or was it just them wanting to move everyone into a more consistent way of working, for support reasons or whatever? It's certainly their perogative to do this, I'm not arguing that, but I don't agree that it is unquestionably an improvement.

But maybe I just haven't figured out exactly how to use it. Here's a question for you, maybe someone has a solution: Assuming there are benefits to spatial memory and association (e.g. the Start menu is always lower-left and you can quickly move your mouse there to activate it at any time), how do you maintain that with the pinned apps on the task bar when the pinned apps move as e.g. several windows of an app to the left of it in the task bar are opened (if merging of app windows is disabled as I prefer). This is especially problematic if you enable labels for task bar entries, as I also prefer. One of the reasons for having them on is I can glance at my task bar and get a quick idea of e.g. how many unread messages in my email, and lots of other info. Win Win7 I either have to have that turned on and lose spatial memory associations, making my work slower, or I have to turn it off and then hover over a task bar entry to get the info I could normally get just from glancing downward. This all seems like a step backward in the productivity of the UI to me. But again maybe I'm just using it wrong.

Ultimately the problem with major UI changes, no matter how innovative or apparently helpful, is that people have almost always created potentially complex ways of working with the old design and may find it very productive. At the very least they may have developed habits of working that are very much ingrained and, even if not optimal, are still very familiar and enable fast workflow. The same arguments came up around the new Ribbon UI in Office 2k7. Some people got used to it very quickly and loved it, many, many others simply haven't upgraded since they find it annoying and limiting. I think splitting their userbase like this is not necessarily the best idea either, when they could easily just provide an option for it.

- Oshyan

Innuendo

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2009, 11:07:13 PM »
Is UI configuration and function an absolute in terms of productivity? Or is it a preference? I happen to think it is very much a preference. Different people work best in different ways.

I agree with that. People do work best in different ways. I'm sure MS conducted focus groups and research that pointed them to changing things the way they did, but you can't please all the people all of the time and unfortunately, you are in the minority segment this go-around.

Quote
(if merging of app windows is disabled as I prefer).

And this is where your problem lies. I really think MS put that mode in almost as an after-thought to keep people happy who weren't going to like the new way of doing things. But like you said, it really doesn't cater to the muscle memory angle of things at all.

Quote
This all seems like a step backward in the productivity of the UI to me. But again maybe I'm just using it wrong.

When I want to take a look at what's going on in my programs I either just slide my mouse across the icons on the taskbar and look at the thumbnails or if I am needing a bigger look Windows-Tab brings up Flip3D. My email program throws up a little ticker tape in the lower right hand corner of my screen to show me how many messages I have, who they are from, and what the subject line is so I don't have to worry about that.

I'm not saying you are using it wrong at all. Your work habits just may not be well-suited at all to the new way of doing things & I am sure you are not alone. Once Windows 7 is officially out and hits its stride I'll be very interested to see what third-party solutions come out to address the needs of people like you.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 12:21:18 PM by Innuendo »

Tuxman

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2009, 11:11:43 PM »
Your work habits just may not be well-suited at all to the new way of doing things
I would rather say, the "new way of doing things" does not fit anyone's actual work habits, eh?

I'll be very interested to see what third-party solutions come out to address the needs of people like you.
At least some people know how to make money with Microsoft's mistakes.

Innuendo

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2009, 12:29:51 PM »
I would rather say, the "new way of doing things" does not fit anyone's actual work habits, eh?

Maybe it is me who is in the minority, but I have fully embraced the new taskbar and start menu in Windows 7. I love the way they work. My taskbar is uncluttered, my start menu works how I want it to....life is good in my corner of the computing universe.

Quote
At least some people know how to make money with Microsoft's mistakes.

Twenty bucks for a start menu replacement? Nice to know that P.T. Barnum was right. I think if it were me and I didn't care for the new Windows 7 start menu & task bar I'd seriously look into a dock solution that replaced the start menu, taskbar, and system tray in one fell swoop for that same amount of money....but that's just me.

Tuxman

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2009, 12:44:11 PM »
Obviously there seems to be a certain interest for things like that.

Stoic Joker

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2009, 05:43:31 PM »
I would rather say, the "new way of doing things" does not fit anyone's actual work habits, eh?

Maybe it is me who is in the minority, but I have fully embraced the new taskbar and start menu in Windows 7. I love the way they work. My taskbar is uncluttered, my start menu works how I want it to....life is good in my corner of the computing universe.
Mine too, I'm lovin' the new Win7 UI

Darwin

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2009, 09:43:45 PM »
I would rather say, the "new way of doing things" does not fit anyone's actual work habits, eh?

Maybe it is me who is in the minority, but I have fully embraced the new taskbar and start menu in Windows 7. I love the way they work. My taskbar is uncluttered, my start menu works how I want it to....life is good in my corner of the computing universe.
Mine too, I'm lovin' the new Win7 UI

Me three! It's evolutionary, rather than revolutionary, in comparison to Vista, but it's been "tweaked" and I like it a lot. The new taskbar and start menu rock  :Thmbsup:
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

f0dder

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2009, 12:35:02 AM »
I would rather say, the "new way of doing things" does not fit anyone's actual work habits, eh?

Maybe it is me who is in the minority, but I have fully embraced the new taskbar and start menu in Windows 7. I love the way they work. My taskbar is uncluttered, my start menu works how I want it to....life is good in my corner of the computing universe.
Mine too, I'm lovin' the new Win7 UI

Me three! It's evolutionary, rather than revolutionary, in comparison to Vista, but it's been "tweaked" and I like it a lot. The new taskbar and start menu rock  :Thmbsup:
...and me four. The pinning+grouping took a slight bit getting used to, but I find it cleaner and less cluttered.
- carpe noctem

Innuendo

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2009, 11:51:25 AM »
But maybe I just haven't figured out exactly how to use it. Here's a question for you, maybe someone has a solution: Assuming there are benefits to spatial memory and association (e.g. the Start menu is always lower-left and you can quickly move your mouse there to activate it at any time), how do you maintain that with the pinned apps on the task bar when the pinned apps move as e.g. several windows of an app to the left of it in the task bar are opened (if merging of app windows is disabled as I prefer).

An idea for you to try...and I have no idea if this will work but have you tried making use of the Windows Key+1-5 shortcuts which will select the first 5 apps on the Windows 7 taskbar?

JavaJones

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2009, 01:07:36 PM »
I'm not against change and evolution, I just don't understand why it has to mean the end of the old way of doing things. Granted it's been around since Win2k now, but the fact that it survived from 2k, to XP, to Vista says something to me about the utility of that approach. I wonder how many people found it as functional as I.

One thing I find interesting is how many people who do like the new approach talk about "lack of clutter", etc. I for one don't care about this at all. My computer is functional not aesthetic, and I don't need it to be otherwise. I can deal with 100 icons on the desktop, 50 tabs in Firefox, and I like it that way. You're talking to a guy who has 2 rows of task bar on most of his computers. I'm also really annoyed by the inability to "re-open explorer windows on startup" in Win7 because I use the task bar as a "holding area" and almost like a reminder system in some sense (oh, this explorer folder was open because I had to work on that document). So the idea of collapsing, of trying to minimize icons on my taskbar or desktop, etc. is entirely counter intuitive and counter productive for me.

Anyway, again, bottom line is I don't object to new ideas, I just object to old ones being removed unless the new one fully encompasses them somehow. I feel like they could easily have made the new task bar paradigm flexible enough to accommodate my way of working... but they didn't.

As for using shortcuts to switch between the "first 5 apps", judging by my above comments on number of open apps, I'm sure you can see that wouldn't help much. ;) I appreciate the suggestion though.

- Oshyan

Innuendo

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2009, 09:02:04 PM »
...because I use the task bar as a "holding area" and almost like a reminder system in some sense (oh, this explorer folder was open because I had to work on that document). So the idea of collapsing, of trying to minimize icons on my taskbar or desktop, etc. is entirely counter intuitive and counter productive for me.

Then it may be time to explore (no pun intended) looking into finding an alternate file manager. I often have many tabs open in Total Commander each one displaying a folder because it was I need to work on something later & if closed Total Commander will remember all those open tabs/folders upon re-opening.

Most of your irritants with Explorer I don't see because I left Explorer behind a long time ago as it's rather primitive compared to most third-party file managers available today. Maybe Win7 is your excuse to find one yourself?

JavaJones

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2009, 09:14:38 PM »
Yeah, actually I do already use FreeCommander (but it's a recent switch so I still use the old multi-window approach a lot), and it has solved a lot of my Win7 file management issues. But that's just one part of the reason I use the taskbar the way I do, and having solved that one still leaves many others.

- Oshyan

Innuendo

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2009, 01:33:18 PM »
Yeah, actually I do already use FreeCommander (but it's a recent switch so I still use the old multi-window approach a lot)

The key with Orthodox file managers like Free Commander and Total Commander is mastering the command key shortcuts. If you do that, you'll be able to whiz through file operations much faster than you could ever by using a mouse in any setting. I haven't used Free Commander in years, but if it is worth its salt you'll find your concerns about Windows 7's Explorer's inadequacies melt away soon enough.

JavaJones

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2009, 04:36:05 PM »
Explorer, yes, but Task Bar... ? :D

I already know it's a fix for my Explorer issues, I wrote a blog post about it: http://oshyan.blogspost.com/

- Oshyan

Tuxman

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2009, 04:38:11 PM »
Vista was the first OS which made me think that Explorer with QTTabBar doesn't nearly fit my needs...  ;D

Innuendo

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2009, 10:12:26 AM »
Get your classic start menu back in Windows 7 for free.

LifeHacker to the rescue again:

http://lifehacker.co...nu-back-to-windows-7

Tuxman

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2009, 10:15:24 AM »
Damn. One less reason.

Innuendo

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Re: Who should judge Win7's success?
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2009, 01:13:04 PM »
Damn. One less reason.

Sorry I had to go and ruin your day like that.