Main Area and Open Discussion > General Software Discussion
Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
40hz:
Let's see... well... is OmniOutliner better than OneNote?
-Paul Keith (October 05, 2009, 03:41 PM)
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IMHO: Yes, it is. :)
rgdot:
Got to say that in my opinion something like the Ubuntu support is somewhat better but I have definitely seen and still see that 'rtfa' attitude all over linux forums and channels.
Having browsed endlessly on places like sourceforge I think that, with notable and popular exceptions, open source Windows software tends to be slower and in too many cases have the feel of being a Windows port.
40hz:
Honestly, I like ubuntu. I've been using it as my main desktop since last year, it's great for working (and I code in C++, consider it much handier than Vista). But I think "free software" won't get far. Developers don't like to fix these boring bugs, but these boring bugs drive any regular user crazy.
-jgpaiva (October 05, 2009, 05:08 PM)
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zridling: for me, with linux, it's been an issue of programs being of generally inferior quality, often without proper documentation ("read the source" != documentation), very hostile "support" channels, sucky performance (graphics acceleration, the X11 platform (or at least the common widget toolkits), applications that load slowly, ...), the lack of proper C++ development tools, et cetera.
-f0dder (October 05, 2009, 04:29 PM)
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Actually, I think Josh and f0dder might have hit on something that's at the core of the FOSS development model:
FOSS is primarily run by Coders. And Coders primarily want to code. Most don't want to run a business, write documentation, or do end-user support. They just want to code.
The reason this struck me as significant is because of an experience I had early in my career. I had gotten together with a few cohorts from work to produce a forecasting tool for small to mid-sized companies. We had written it using something called Clarion. Clarion Developer was a fairly advanced 4GL database tool for its time.
We had a ball writing and debugging our little project. We even enjoyed adding features as we fleshed out its capabilities and got to know Clarion better.
Then we made a mistake and started selling it ...
We had about five paying customers when it happened: Support calls. Feature requests. Customer employee training and hand holding...
We did our best. And we hated it. But since we only had a few paying clients, we couldn't afford to farm any of these responsibilities out.
Now, the question became what to do next? Quit our day jobs? Seek venture capital? Start hiring and marketing? Turn it into a 'real' business? Get big?
So we talked to a few people. None of the folks who could actually help us really cared about the product itself. All they wanted to talk about was working out some sort of deal (which would basically chain the four of us to our PCs for five or so years) while they marketed the hell out of our app. In return we'd get stock (and a buy out option) if the product actually took off.
In short, it would be business as usual: a total crap shoot for us - and a 'sweetheart deal' with minimal risk for our backers if things didn't pan out.
Since we all had degrees and 'corporate experience' in finance and accounting, we had no illusions that our particular 'product' was anything more than a niche product. And a marginal one at best.
And that's when it hit all of us. We didn't really want to run a software business. We didn't even want to be in business at all. All we wanted to do was code and improve the thing we created. On our own schedule and according to our own priorities. Y'know, "Ars gratia artis." as the saying goes?
But we realized we couldn't that if we were also going to do it as a business.
So in the end, we stopped developing our little product. And to get out from under our obligations to our paying customers, we stopped charging and just gave them the source code. And in order not to leave anyone 'high and dry', one person in our group agreed to support our old customers on a part-time contract basis until they migrated to other software packages.
I think large segments of the FOSS development community feel the same way about their projects as we did about ours. Most are not out to prove anything. They just want to develop their code. Period. And "FREE - use at your own risk" is all the commitment they're willing to make.
Interesting.... 8)
<Edit: Oops. Dropped part of the final draft before I posted. Again. Added reference to and quote from f0dder that got dropped. Hopefully the whole thing now makes more sense.>
Paul Keith:
It's interesting to read all the reasons given in favor of using Windows. No problem with that. However, how come so very few people who switch from Windows to Mac or Linux never return? I contend that once you immerse yourself in the other side -- especially if you want to make a switch -- then you're no longer impressed with Windows, period. It looks pretty, comes with some nice fonts, but it doesn't have enough to lure you back. I don't count games as a reason because you can buy a console for those any day. I've never had time for more than a few minutes of solitaire or chess, so it's not a point in favor of Windows (for me).
Which is why that 12% figure will likely continue to grow, even if Linux forever remains in that 1% desktop range, ha!! :P
-zridling (October 05, 2009, 04:18 PM)
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Aside from the price issue, the thing with both is that they feel better "out of the box".
You have to consider the fact that most people who switch to both are the people most likely to not have a favorite exclusive software on Windows. (either because of ignorance or not exploring)
In those situations, it does become like a console situation.
However, for casual users who are on a budget and have a software that eventually becomes more of a priority to use than to tinker with installing on Linux and Wine emulation or hoping for it to be ported to Mac, then it's back to Windows.
Yes, I'm saying it. Aside from Flash problems and other killer app annoyances (Photoshop), Linux IMHO is more for the newbie these days than Windows. I'm sure the same thing holds for the Mac except it's the reverse. Paid programs are expected to work because they're a business but free alternatives are countable compared to the ones on Windows.
I will join f0dder in saying that I have had nothing but negative things to say about support when it comes to asking an open source community for help. If you do not read, and understand, the manual then you are laughed at, mocked, and on IRC banned from channels where you should otherwise expect help for your problems.-Josh
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To be honest, this has been improving, it's just that the kind support forums lacks proper knowledgeable users helping out while the famous ones like Ubuntu on IRC gets all the rude users. (Even then, it's more of a frustration of hitting on the wrong user than on the FOSS community at this point.)
For example, take Mint which had to stop support for paid support because there wasn't enough staff in it even when the idea was already started:
Erlik wrote: “Given how good Linux Mint is why would you install anything else? Well, there are a few caveat. First Linux Mint does not have a big support corporation behind it like Ubuntu. This means that it is more difficult to purchase paid support and that there is no software shop where you can purchase commercial applications like PowerDVD for Linux.”
–> This is very true. In brief, Linux Mint is still a very small project and it lacks the resources and structure necessary to offer adequate paid support. In comparison to Ubuntu, Linux Mint cannot support big corporations. We also recently stopped to offer paid support to small companies and individuals as our current structure wasn’t fitted for this activity and we could not guarantee satisfying response times.
http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=900
I'm also not sure since I can't find it on a simple Google search but I could swear I read somewhere where the Sidux community is banned from using the acronym RTFM.
The Linux Questions forums seems also friendly enough.
The big problem is that none of the support here can often provide any workable "on the spot" advises except friendliness.
IMHO: Yes, it is.
-40hz (October 05, 2009, 06:01 PM)
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I'm surprised you don't have much to say about the two. ;D
40hz:
IMHO: Yes, it is.
-40hz (October 05, 2009, 06:01 PM)
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I'm surprised you don't have much to say about the two. ;D
-Paul Keith (October 05, 2009, 08:25 PM)
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I guess that's because your outliner is about as personal a choice as your favorite brand of single malt scotch would be. In my case, my former lovers were: MaxThink (PC); Acta (Mac); ecco Po (PC); Inspiration (PC/Mac); OneNote (Win); and OmniOutliner (Mac).
I'm currently between outliners right now. When I absolutely do need to use one however, I usually find myself loading up my old copy of ecco Pro.
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