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Last post Author Topic: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.  (Read 70187 times)

40hz

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2009, 10:26:20 AM »
ODF sucks almost as much as OOXML

I keep hearing that.

But ok, assuming that's actually true - does anybody have a better schema that goes beyond pure theory? Has anybody taken it beyond just bashing what's already been proposed? Is there a demonstrably superior (and useable) document standard out there that has actually reached the working prototype stage? Because I'm not aware of any.

So that's why I'm asking.

I figured if anybody knew, it would be somebody here. :Thmbsup:

-----

Q: How many programmers does it take to design and code a C++ program?

A: One thousand. One person to do the actual work - and the remaining 999 to sit around and chuckle about how they could have done it ten times better with their eyes closed...
:P


<EDIT: fixed a minor spelling error. Sorry!>

« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 08:32:44 PM by 40hz »

Innuendo

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2009, 10:27:35 AM »
I know you're kidding, but people say it 9even if they know better, like me) just because it's a phrase that will be generally understood.  Just like the words "kleenex" or "xerox".  

Yes...I say it although I know better, but because of all those Mac commercials it's what people know and understand because that's a distinction in definitions that Apple itself came up with...which is fine with me. Modern Macs these days seem more and more like computing appliances than personal computers. I can imagine a day when there'll be a sticker on the bottom of all Macs that states "No user-serviceable parts inside".

superboyac

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2009, 11:46:02 AM »
Yes...I say it although I know better, but because of all those Mac commercials it's what people know and understand because that's a distinction in definitions that Apple itself came up with...which is fine with me. Modern Macs these days seem more and more like computing appliances than personal computers. I can imagine a day when there'll be a sticker on the bottom of all Macs that states "No user-serviceable parts inside".
I like that..."computing appliances"!  I hear you.  But you also know that the consumers LOVE how the Macs come in one piece.  Whenever my friends get a new Mac, they are always so proud about how there are no wires and how everything is tucked away behind the monitor.  Now, sure, it's not practical for me because I don't get to fiddle with the parts, but these people will never want to do that.  Jobs is a brilliant marketer.  He knows what people want.  Sony should really try to learn from him.

40hz

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2009, 11:58:56 AM »
Jobs is a brilliant marketer.  He knows what people want.


2009-01-17-cylon_0.gif

 :P


f0dder

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2009, 12:10:30 PM »
Btw, why is it that people  say "mac vs PC"? Macs are personal computers, and have been so since day 1.
I know you're kidding, but people say it 9even if they know better, like me) just because it's a phrase that will be generally understood.  Just like the words "kleenex" or "xerox".  
Actually I wasn't kidding - I know people around this forum know better, but I've met several mac-users IRL who refuse to believe that these days (ever since ~2005 or so) macs are bog-standard x86 hardware... and make claims like "but photoshop filters run noticably faster on my mac!" (if that's true, for the same hardware, Adobe either intentionally crippled the Windows version of 'shop, or used a really sucky compiler).

But ok, assuming that's actually true - does anybody have a better schema that goes beyond pure theory? Has anybody taken it beyond just bashing what's already been proposed? Is there a demonstrably superior (and useable) document standard out there that has actually reached the working prototype stage? Because I'm not aware of any.
Imho the old .DOC format is superior to both of them... instead of coming up with OOXML, MS should just have opened up that format instead. It might not be XML-based, but really, fsck that :)

Q: How many programmers does it take to design and code a C++ program?

A: One thousand. One person to do the actual work - and the remaining 999 to sit around and chuckle about how they could have done it ten times better with their eyes closed...
:P
:Thmbsup:

Unfortunately, I often find myself in that situation - which is a bit scary, since I'm not going to claim I always write the worlds best, clean, production-grade code. But... christ. Ever taken a look at, say, the Notepad++ source code?
- carpe noctem
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 12:15:00 PM by f0dder »

Paul Keith

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2009, 03:41:40 PM »
Ouch, this has become a Mac can't beat PC at anything thread. (aesthetics aside)

Let's see... well... is OmniOutliner better than OneNote?

That's the last category that I think Macs are praised for that the PC isn't (that hasn't been debunked): Notetaking.

zridling

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2009, 04:02:55 PM »
Quote
My biggest hurdle when leaving Windows was leaving behind AutoHotkey. That's the only program I missed for a while. Everything else has been a joy.

Zaine, you know about autokey, right? What do you think? python syntax beats ahk's any day...

I was not aware of Autokey. Thanks man!!

zridling

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2009, 04:18:11 PM »
It's interesting to read all the reasons given in favor of using Windows. No problem with that. However, how come so very few people who switch from Windows to Mac or Linux never return? I contend that once you immerse yourself in the other side -- especially if you want to make a switch -- then you're no longer impressed with Windows, period. It looks pretty, comes with some nice fonts, but it doesn't have enough to lure you back. I don't count games as a reason because you can buy a console for those any day. I've never had time for more than a few minutes of solitaire or chess, so it's not a point in favor of Windows (for me).

Which is why that 12% figure will likely continue to grow, even if Linux forever remains in that 1% desktop range, ha!!  :P

Josh

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2009, 04:28:01 PM »
However, how come so very few people who switch from Windows to Mac or Linux never return?

Could it be that they are too poor after paying for their mac to afford to switch back?

Sorry, cheap shot, had to take it thou

f0dder

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #59 on: October 05, 2009, 04:29:50 PM »
zridling: for me, with linux, it's been an issue of programs being of generally inferior quality, often without proper documentation ("read the source" != documentation), very hostile "support" channels, sucky performance (graphics acceleration, the X11 platform (or at least the common widget toolkits), applications that load slowly, ...), the lack of proper C++ development tools, et cetera.

Obviously it's been easy for you to leave windows, since you seem to be pretty cloud-fascinated, but I'm not - and I also do game every now and then, and stuff that wouldn't be comfortable to play on a console.

I've been using linux since ~1998 or so, and it works great for my server needs... and there's definitely been progress on the desktop side. But there's a long way to go, the attitude from the "community" (if you can call something that fragmented a community), hostility towards commercial software, aggression towards closed-source stuff... well, thanks but no thanks.
- carpe noctem

zridling

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2009, 04:38:36 PM »
However, how come so very few people who switch from Windows to Mac or Linux never return?

Could it be that they are too poor after paying for their mac to afford to switch back?

Ha, made me laugh! It's odd that apple customers have never risen up and demanded that prices come down.

zridling

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #61 on: October 05, 2009, 04:44:01 PM »
zridling: for me, with linux, it's been an issue of programs being of generally inferior quality, often without proper documentation ("read the source" != documentation), very hostile "support" channels, sucky performance (graphics acceleration, the X11 platform (or at least the common widget toolkits), applications that load slowly, ...), the lack of proper C++ development tools, et cetera.

Wow, would love to know which slow programs/distros you're using. I've not had that experience in the past three years. And have never come across a hostile person when asking for help, and I don't know enough about programming to know whether there are "[im]proper C++ development tools." Guess you're stuck with whatever Microsoft giveth. Nothing wrong with that if you're happy with it.

Josh

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #62 on: October 05, 2009, 04:59:01 PM »
I will join f0dder in saying that I have had nothing but negative things to say about support when it comes to asking an open source community for help. If you do not read, and understand, the manual then you are laughed at, mocked, and on IRC banned from channels where you should otherwise expect help for your problems.

When asking for a bug to be fixed on a forum, I have been flamed and attacked for suggesting a bug is just that, a bug. I am all about supporting a program, but supporting it to the point where you don't admit its faults is a big thing I have seen in many open source communities.

Software on the F/OSS side of the house is another problem which, like f0dder, I have experienced inferiority on. On windows, when I pay for a program, I expect a certain level of performance and refinement. On F/OSS applications, interfaces feel tacked on (as most GUI tools are simply command line apps with a GUI tacked on as an afterthought). You can claim OoO all you want as a demonstration of fine software development on the F/OSS world, but that is one application out of thousands that exist. Often times bugs present themselves for years on end that never get fixed. I am reminded of the old xkcd.org comic strip detailing a similar experience.

Feature addition is another fault of most F/OSS software. For the most part, unless the major forum dwellers agree about a feature suggestion, one that isn't flamed to the depths of the forums, the feature is likely to not be implemented.

F/OSS has it's pluses but in my book, the negatives far outweigh and outnumber them.

jgpaiva

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #63 on: October 05, 2009, 05:08:10 PM »
zaine: try gnupaint. THE best example of why some people should not be allowed to code :P
As for inferior quality software... Try multiple screen. It works flawlessly in Windows since what, 98? To have extra fun, try it with desktop acceleration on, and see the desktop breaking apart. And then you say "oh, submit a bug report". I did, someone else had submitted it before I did. The bug report has been open since  2007-11-05, and nothing has been fixed. (see here)
And then you have this pearl. When you disable "session save", the system always starts with whatever was open in the session where you disabled the option, because the session isn't deleted when you deselect the option. The bug is open, has been swtiching state constantly, but more than three years have gone since it has opened.

Both these bugs affect me personally. I did use a workaround for the second one, but because of the first, I'm using no desktop acceleration and have a twentieth century desktop because my OS from 2009 doesn't support multi-monitor desktops like any other OS does.

Honestly, I like ubuntu. I've been using it as my main desktop since last year, it's great for working (and I code in C++,  consider it much handier than Vista). But I think "free software" won't get far. Developers don't like to fix these boring bugs, but these boring bugs drive any regular user crazy.

I gave the gnupaint example because the developer thought it was useful to include "effects", but excluded a regular rectangular selection tool. Or maybe it's there, but I can't find it because he decided he didn't feel like writing the tooltips for the buttons, he must have thought that the stupid symbols on the buttons are enough (and he didn't use anything remotely similar to mspaint, probably because he must think "ms is evil"). Then I thought "ok, I'll check the help file" and (guess what?) there was none!

This is why I'm buying a mac. It'll be as easy as it is currently to connect to a unix server and test stuff locally before deploying (I think it's great that I can test the bash files on my computer before sending them to the server), but I won't have to keep up with this kind of developer stupidity.

[edit] forgot to say: the best thing about ubuntu is repository download. Installing and uninstalling stuff with a command line really is heaven. Can't praise it enough, and I wish (even though I know it's way more difficult) it was available in other platforms! [/edit]
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 06:10:32 PM by jgpaiva »

urlwolf

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #64 on: October 05, 2009, 05:38:23 PM »
I agree that mostly any FOSS end-user tool is inferior. Programming tools and languages (add databases) are much better, though. 64-bit ports come earlier, and work.

40hz

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #65 on: October 05, 2009, 06:01:18 PM »
Let's see... well... is OmniOutliner better than OneNote?

IMHO: Yes, it is.  :)

« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 06:04:01 PM by 40hz »

rgdot

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #66 on: October 05, 2009, 06:12:40 PM »
Got to say that in my opinion something like the Ubuntu support is somewhat better but I have definitely seen and still see that 'rtfa' attitude all over linux forums and channels.

Having browsed endlessly on places like sourceforge I think that, with notable and popular exceptions, open source Windows software tends to be slower and in too many cases have the feel of being a Windows port.

40hz

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #67 on: October 05, 2009, 08:15:34 PM »
Honestly, I like ubuntu. I've been using it as my main desktop since last year, it's great for working (and I code in C++,  consider it much handier than Vista). But I think "free software" won't get far. Developers don't like to fix these boring bugs, but these boring bugs drive any regular user crazy.

zridling: for me, with linux, it's been an issue of programs being of generally inferior quality, often without proper documentation ("read the source" != documentation), very hostile "support" channels, sucky performance (graphics acceleration, the X11 platform (or at least the common widget toolkits), applications that load slowly, ...), the lack of proper C++ development tools, et cetera.

Actually, I think Josh and f0dder might have hit on something that's at the core of the FOSS development model:

FOSS is primarily run by Coders. And Coders primarily want to code. Most don't want to run a business, write documentation, or do end-user support. They just want to code.

The reason this struck me as significant is because of an experience I had early in my career. I had gotten together with a few cohorts from work to produce a forecasting tool for small to mid-sized companies. We had written it using something called Clarion. Clarion Developer was a fairly advanced 4GL database tool for its time.

We had a ball writing and debugging our little project. We even enjoyed adding features as we fleshed out its capabilities and got to know Clarion better.

Then we made a mistake and started selling it ...

We had about five paying customers when it happened: Support calls. Feature requests. Customer employee training and hand holding...

We did our best. And we hated it. But since we only had a few paying clients, we couldn't afford to farm any of these responsibilities out.

Now, the question became what to do next?  Quit our day jobs? Seek venture capital? Start hiring and marketing? Turn it into a 'real' business? Get big?

So we talked to a few people. None of the folks who could actually help us really cared about the product itself. All they wanted to talk about was working out some sort of deal (which would basically chain the four of us to our PCs for five or so years) while they marketed the hell out of our app. In return we'd get stock (and a buy out option) if the product actually took off.

In short, it would be business as usual: a total crap shoot for us - and a 'sweetheart deal' with minimal risk for our backers if things didn't pan out.

Since we all had degrees and 'corporate experience' in finance and accounting, we had no illusions that our particular 'product' was anything more than a niche product. And a marginal one at best.

And that's when it hit all of us. We didn't really want to run a software business. We didn't even want to be in business at all. All we wanted to do was code and improve the thing we created. On our own schedule and according to our own priorities. Y'know, "Ars gratia artis." as the saying goes?

But we realized we couldn't that if we were also going to do it as a business.

So in the end, we stopped developing our little product. And to get out from under our obligations to our paying customers, we stopped charging and just gave them the source code. And in order not to leave anyone 'high and dry', one person in our group agreed to support our old customers on a part-time contract basis until they migrated to other software packages.

I think large segments of the FOSS development community feel the same way about their projects as we did about ours. Most are not out to prove anything. They just want to develop their code. Period. And "FREE - use at your own risk" is all the commitment they're willing to make.

Interesting.... 8)

<Edit: Oops. Dropped part of the final draft before I posted. Again. Added reference to and quote from f0dder that got dropped. Hopefully the whole thing now makes more sense.>



« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 09:40:50 AM by 40hz »

Paul Keith

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #68 on: October 05, 2009, 08:25:58 PM »
It's interesting to read all the reasons given in favor of using Windows. No problem with that. However, how come so very few people who switch from Windows to Mac or Linux never return? I contend that once you immerse yourself in the other side -- especially if you want to make a switch -- then you're no longer impressed with Windows, period. It looks pretty, comes with some nice fonts, but it doesn't have enough to lure you back. I don't count games as a reason because you can buy a console for those any day. I've never had time for more than a few minutes of solitaire or chess, so it's not a point in favor of Windows (for me).

Which is why that 12% figure will likely continue to grow, even if Linux forever remains in that 1% desktop range, ha!!  :P

Aside from the price issue, the thing with both is that they feel better "out of the box".

You have to consider the fact that most people who switch to both are the people most likely to not have a favorite exclusive software on Windows. (either because of ignorance or not exploring)

In those situations, it does become like a console situation.

However, for casual users who are on a budget and have a software that eventually becomes more of a priority to use than to tinker with installing on Linux and Wine emulation or hoping for it to be ported to Mac, then it's back to Windows.

Yes, I'm saying it. Aside from Flash problems and other killer app annoyances (Photoshop), Linux IMHO is more for the newbie these days than Windows. I'm sure the same thing holds for the Mac except it's the reverse. Paid programs are expected to work because they're a business but free alternatives are countable compared to the ones on Windows.

Quote from: Josh
I will join f0dder in saying that I have had nothing but negative things to say about support when it comes to asking an open source community for help. If you do not read, and understand, the manual then you are laughed at, mocked, and on IRC banned from channels where you should otherwise expect help for your problems.

To be honest, this has been improving, it's just that the kind support forums lacks proper knowledgeable users helping out while the famous ones like Ubuntu on IRC gets all the rude users. (Even then, it's more of a frustration of hitting on the wrong user than on the FOSS community at this point.)

For example, take Mint which had to stop support for paid support because there wasn't enough staff in it even when the idea was already started:

Erlik wrote: “Given how good Linux Mint is why would you install anything else? Well, there are a few caveat. First Linux Mint does not have a big support corporation behind it like Ubuntu. This means that it is more difficult to purchase paid support and that there is no software shop where you can purchase commercial applications like PowerDVD for Linux.”

–> This is very true. In brief, Linux Mint is still a very small project and it lacks the resources and structure necessary to offer adequate paid support. In comparison to Ubuntu, Linux Mint cannot support big corporations. We also recently stopped to offer paid support to small companies and individuals as our current structure wasn’t fitted for this activity and we could not guarantee satisfying response times.

http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=900

I'm also not sure since I can't find it on a simple Google search but I could swear I read somewhere where the Sidux community is banned from using the acronym RTFM.

The Linux Questions forums seems also friendly enough.

The big problem is that none of the support here can often provide any workable "on the spot" advises except friendliness.

IMHO: Yes, it is.

I'm surprised you don't have much to say about the two.  ;D




40hz

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #69 on: October 05, 2009, 09:28:18 PM »
IMHO: Yes, it is.

I'm surprised you don't have much to say about the two.  ;D


I guess that's because your outliner is about as personal a choice as your favorite brand of single malt scotch would be. In my case, my former lovers were: MaxThink (PC); Acta (Mac); ecco Po (PC); Inspiration (PC/Mac); OneNote (Win); and OmniOutliner (Mac).

I'm currently between outliners right now. When I absolutely do need to use one however, I usually find myself loading up my old copy of ecco Pro.


Paul Keith

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #70 on: October 05, 2009, 09:57:23 PM »
Quote
I guess that's because your outliner is about as personal a choice as your favorite brand of single malt scotch

...or your favorite kind of Apple Hardware?  :P ...I kid the Mac fanbase.

Paul Keith

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #71 on: October 05, 2009, 11:06:25 PM »

f0dder

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #72 on: October 06, 2009, 12:56:18 AM »
Quote
"He'd be a broader guy if he had dropped acid once or gone off to an ashram when he was younger."
:P

I got 5/10, but it was pretty much guesswork. Basically I went with all the most arrogant-sounding crap as Jobs, and that made for a lot of the correct answers :)
- carpe noctem

Darwin

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #73 on: October 06, 2009, 08:00:52 AM »
That was harder than I thought... 4/10  ;D
"Some people have a way with words, other people,... oh... have not way" - Steve Martin

40hz

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Re: Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.
« Reply #74 on: October 06, 2009, 09:46:54 AM »
4/10 using a strategy similar to f0dder's. I automatically assumed any answer that seemed intended to provoke controversy as coming from Jobs. Glad to see I got the JFK and Woz one right at least. :D