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Author Topic: Does MySQL care about Windows users? in short, no  (Read 2641 times)

urlwolf

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Does MySQL care about Windows users? in short, no
« on: July 23, 2009, 08:27:43 AM »
  Does MySQL care about Windows users? in short, no

This is very sad.

If you want to program, then linux offers the best environment (as l long as you stay with OSS). The windows ports are horrible to work with.

But in my experience, everything else -not programming- is worse under Linux (text editing, word processing, video, sound, etc).

When is this going to end? I'm tired of having to run VMs just to get the best of both worlds...

Other than python (that sorta works ok on windows), most programming tools from OSS get only passing attention on Win. Windows Ruby is really a disgrace.

Possible solutions:
1- convince OSS guys to test on windows... not gonna happen.
2- get Linux to a point where all the other things are tolerable. Not gonna happen either. Commercial software has the edge, and it doesn't make business sense to move to linux.

Anyone feeling creative bold enough to post a solution that could work?

f0dder

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Re: Does MySQL care about Windows users? in short, no
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2009, 09:14:24 AM »
It's funny how a lot of OSS guys think they're writing portable software, when in reality you're lucky if it works across all *u*x variants - not to mention non-unices :)

And linux doesn't necessarily offer the best programming environment... sure, it's the least hassle if you're forced to use certain technologies. But there's other databases than MySQL. And who cares about ruby anyway, it's slowass and ugly :P
- carpe noctem

housetier

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Re: Does MySQL care about Windows users? in short, no
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2009, 09:20:42 AM »
You could strive to have different experiences.

I know mine differ, so I believe there is a possibility for you to also have less saddening experiences. For example Visual Studio works quite well on Windows, so I should think that makes programming easier. And then I have yet to find a movie that mplayer won't play.

As far as text editing goes... I think there is a good solution for every need. My needs are very small so I can make do with vim and textile or markdown. Others will be rather happy with (La)TeX because they will finally get superb-looking results. Then there is OpenOffice which like the expensive counterpart from Microsoft has more features than the average user will ever know.

Yeah it's a matter of perspective...

40hz

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Re: Does MySQL care about Windows users? in short, no
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2009, 11:18:46 AM »
  Does MySQL care about Windows users? in short, no

But in my experience, everything else -not programming- is worse under Linux (text editing, word processing, video, sound, etc).

There are those who would disagree with your experience. Me for one! :)

I work with Windows, OSX, and various NIX incarnations. I have not found one of them to be inherently better than any of the others. Each have strong points. And each have absolutely maddening issues and limitations.

I think it's easy an easy mistake to equate whatever we're "most familiar with" as being "better."


Quote
get Linux to a point where all the other things are tolerable. Not gonna happen either. Commercial software has the edge...

I''m also going to have to 'agree to disagree' with you on this one. I have clients running businesses entirely (i.e. desktop & infrastructure) on the GNU/NIX platform. None of them are having any of the issues you seem to be having. Most, in fact, say they prefer their "new" environment. (Note: The two that didn't prefer it said they didn't really care what they ran as long as it worked.)

Like the old disclaimer goes: Your individual mileage may vary.

For my part, I'm grateful there are choices. 8)

Quote
...and it doesn't make business sense to move to linux.

Umm...ok. Better give Google, IBM, SYNNEX, the USPS, the NYSE, RedHat and all the other NIX biggies a call and let them know that what they're doing doesn't make 'business sense.'

Better yet, charge them a consulting fee for telling them that. (Why should Gartner et al be allowed to collect all the nickles for making fancy guesses? :P)

 :Thmbsup:




Josh

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Re: Does MySQL care about Windows users? in short, no
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2009, 11:27:19 AM »
40hz, I believe what urlwolf was stating was more that if you are ALREADY running Windows, it does not make sense to uproot that entire infrastructure and switch to linux for the sake of switching. Switching to another platform only makes sense if you can financially justify the added cost of retraining, time to convert the infrastructure, and any added support costs from using the new platform. I don't see anywhere in his statement that he said companies are wasting their time switching but instead implied what I just stated above. His comment about commercial software having an edge is true for the most part. Most OSS lacks the polish you see in the commercial product of similar functionality. Businesses often want to be able to use a product where they can call someone to get support and not rely on a forum where you are likely to be flamed for not "RTFM". Of course companies like the ones you name can run *nix, but do they do so as a SOLE PLATFORM or is it INTEGRATED into their infrastructure? Again, switching to one platform for the sake of switching does not make business-sense.

40hz

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Re: Does MySQL care about Windows users? in short, no
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2009, 02:18:49 PM »
switch to linux for the sake of switching

Hey Josh!  :) I think there's been a disconnect somewhere.

I did not say (nor have I ever said) anything about "switching just for the sake of switching." Nor did I get the sense that that is what urlwolf's original post was talking about.

And I also (like you) didn't see anything in Mr. U's comments that mentioned "wasting their time switching" so I don't really know how to respond to your point about that. Especially since I didn't say it either! ;D

What I did disagree with were certain sweeping statements which I quoted and responded to. I also took care to qualify my comments by saying they were based on my experiences. At no time did I say that Mr. U was wrong. What I was hoping to do was to initiate a little dialog so that Mr. U and I could possibly help each other out - either by my helping him clear up some of his misunderstandings - or him helping me clear up some of my own.

All I was trying to say was that companies can - and do - use NIX. Furthermore, it is possible to run a business exclusively on the NIX platform. I'm not arguing they automatically should. But there's enough parity between the two platforms that GNU/NIX is now a viable alternative rather than a 'science fair project' for the IT department.

---

When it comes to discussions about support and training costs, I've found most quoted numbers (pro & con) are highly exaggerated.  I've found support costs to be about the same for all the platforms. Linux/GNU support isn't (or shouldn't be) any more expensive than Windows or OSX. By the same token, you can't rationally expect it to be free.

Regardless of which OS you're running, a support call or visit from a qualified Tech will set your company back about the same money where I live. Small surprise since, in many cases, it's the same people who are providing support for both platforms. And the reason for that isn't because all of us Windows support people are advocates of FOSS solutions. The primary reason my company supports both is because FOSS is a viable alternative. And there is sufficient interest and demand for FOSS solutions in our market that we'd be foolish to ignore it. That's just simple 'business sense.'

Training costs are a different matter. But in many respects, they're largely a paper tiger. From what I have seen, most companies spend little or nothing on formal end-user training. Usually there's an 'orientation meeting' to let the employees know what to expect, and little else. Many only invest in training a small core group, which in turn is expected to teach the rest of the employees what they need to know and answer questions as needed. It's almost like the old guild system of on-the-job training. And truth be told, most applications don't require all that much training provided the employee has some computer experience. (And who doesn't nowadays?)

Switchover costs may or may not be an issue. It primarily depends on the amount and type of data conversion required. Office document format files are usually not an issue. Databases might be problematic, although there are plenty of good tools available to handle conversions reliably and efficiently. Proprietary data formats (usually accounting and other financial apps) probably pose the biggest challenge. But  you would run into the same issues converting from one package to another even under the same operating system. So that cost isn't really specific to switching your OS.

-------

As far as getting support, virtually all of the "business class" applications have professional support options available. Ditto for the distros. If a company wants to use something that only has "forum support" available for it, they'd best either bring the necessary expertise in-house; or contract with the original authors to provide it. I personally have no sympathy for companies that expect (or demand) free technical support on any zero-cost product they are using for business. And that holds true regardless of whether the product was released under GPL or not.

-------

Re: sole vs integrated FOSS deployments. I work with both types of clients. Several use GNU/NIX exclusively, although I'd have to qualify that since some of them are forced to have a Mac or PC in their office just in case one of their clients needs them to work on something that requires a platform specific app. Internally, they're completely FOSS, so I guess that might put them someplace between sole and integrated? I dunno. I'll let you make the call on that one. ;)

For integrated, I don't think I have a single client who isn't using some FOSS product. And that would run the gamut from merely using DD-WRT on a wireless router or running an Untangle Gateway; all the way up to one customer who's using:

  • NIX/Samba combo (Win PDC + file/print services)
  • PostgreSQL (custom database server)
  • Apache (two guesses )
  • Asterix (PBX)
  • pfSense (firewall router)

Interestingly enough, this same client has not deployed Linux to the desktop. They're running (and completely happy) with WinXP. :up:

Whether or not they jump ship is "entirely up to Microsoft." They're currently waiting to see what the final hit (in dollars and hardware performance) will be if they upgrade to Win7. The cost/performance ratio is going to need to be pretty compelling to keep them. Especially since Win7's new interface is sufficiently different from XP that they expect a drop in productivity until their employees receive training. Just what training they ultimately get (Win7 vs Linux) remains to be seen. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.



« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 02:32:16 PM by 40hz »