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Author Topic: DRM hits a new low as Amazon hits the delete key  (Read 5522 times)

nosh

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DRM hits a new low as Amazon hits the delete key
« on: July 18, 2009, 04:12:29 AM »
Quote
This morning, hundreds of Amazon Kindle owners awoke to discover that books by a certain famous author had mysteriously disappeared from their e-book readers. These were books that they had bought and paid for—thought they owned.

http://pogue.blogs.n...e-equal-than-others/

Here's the quirky part - both Orwell books are freely downloadable Down Under.

4wd

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Re: DRM hits a new low as Amazon hits the delete key
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2009, 05:41:31 AM »
Here's the quirky part - both Orwell books are freely downloadable Down Under.

Don't worry, I'm sure the industrious people behind the FTA are working to correct that slight oversight in the copyright laws.

Dormouse

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Re: DRM hits a new low as Amazon hits the delete key
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2009, 06:42:29 AM »
If they sold something that wasn't theirs to sell, then I'm not sure that anyone can say that it is wrong for the items to be 'returned' and the money paid back to them.

The big issue is their ability to just take it back without any dialogue or warning. It really shows you who is in control with DRM - and a reason why I don't 'buy' anything with DRM I cannot disable. You cannot be sure that you have any control over what you have 'bought'. Or that they will stick to any reasonable terms of the 'license' they sell.

Carol Haynes

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Re: DRM hits a new low as Amazon hits the delete key
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2009, 06:44:12 AM »
One of the reasons I now refuse to have anything to do with DRMed eBooks. I have been stung by Amazon in the past (pre-Kindle) when they used to supply Acrobat based eBooks that included DRM and then had no ability to activate them because Amazon withdrew the product.

wraith808

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Re: DRM hits a new low as Amazon hits the delete key
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2009, 07:52:33 AM »
I buy books with DRM; I just don't use a closed model so this doesn't happen (I'm not saying couldn't- mostly because I'm not sure).  I use Fictionwise and Stanza.  When there was a problem, they gave the readers 3 months to download the books in question before they were deleted from their online bookshelf (not their devices).  In most cases, they gave the users new versions in another format (Microsoft Reader and Adobe Reader were the ones to blame, not the service- so they relicensed the books in question in their own format).  Of course, now that Fictionwise has been bought by B&N, I'm not sure how it would be handled in the future.  But since Fictionwise books are readable in a variety of applications on a variety of hardware, I'm less concerned about their access to the books once I download them.

f0dder

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Re: DRM hits a new low as Amazon hits the delete key
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2009, 08:03:44 AM »
One of the reasons I now refuse to have anything to do with DRMed eBooks. I have been stung by Amazon in the past (pre-Kindle) when they used to supply Acrobat based eBooks that included DRM and then had no ability to activate them because Amazon withdrew the product.
:up:
- carpe noctem

40hz

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Re: DRM hits a new low as Amazon hits the delete key
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2009, 09:38:27 AM »
Makes me wonder what will happen down the road when governments decide they want to yank certain ebooks books off electronic shelves without any warning.

We sure seem to be giving up a lot of personal freedom just to have the 'freedom' of walking around with 100 books in our pocket.

Like the song says: Freedom's just another word for 'nothing left to loose.'*

If that's true, then I'd say we're well on our way to becoming free.

Welcome to the real Brave New World, brought to you courtesy of Amazon, Google, Microsoft, and all those other US companies - who bend over backwards to cooperate with repressive regimes and legislation - while incessantly denying they do so.
----

*( Hope that quote from Kris Kristofferson's Me & Bobby McGee falls within the doctrine of Fair Use!)



« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 09:43:16 AM by 40hz »

Carol Haynes

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Re: DRM hits a new low as Amazon hits the delete key
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2009, 10:34:07 AM »
Welcome to the real Brave New World, brought to you courtesy of Amazon, Google, Microsoft, and all those other US companies - who bend over backwards to cooperate with repressive regimes and legislation - while incessantly denying they do so.

Welcome to the new form of colonialism - who needs a physical empire when everything can be controlled electronically?

app103

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Re: DRM hits a new low as Amazon hits the delete key
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2009, 11:11:27 AM »
What amazon did was the digital equivalent of breaking into your home in the middle of the night and replacing a book on your table with a refund check.

And they didn't just take back what they sold to you. In at least one case, they took more. There was at least one student that had purchased one of the books in question, to complete a summer reading assignment. They took all his work, notes and annotations.

Amazon also violated their own licensing and terms of use agreement, which states that once you pay for a book it's yours forever, and they will not revoke your access to what you paid for unless YOU do something wrong. Nowhere in there does it say they will delete books if a publisher does something wrong. And as of today, that agreement still has not been changed.

In the physical book world, they could never get away with something like this. They would be treated as criminals if they even tried it.

In the physical book world, the publisher would have been held responsible for their breach of copyright, and if the copyright holder sued them and won, they would be made to pay the copyright holder for that violation, whatever money they made from the sale of those books in addition to some very stiff fines.

Those that had purchased the books would not have to return them. Additionally, I believe that once the publisher is found guilty, the purchaser would be entitled to a refund, if they took that publisher to small claims court or if it was ordered by the court to offer an optional refund to purchasers, making it even more expensive for the violating publisher. But again, nothing would force the end user to return the book for a refund. It would be their option.

Put it this way, in the physical book world, it's the unauthorized publisher that would be royally screwed for the violation, and not the end users. There is nothing in the law that punishes end users that purchase bootleg copies of books, in good faith.

And this whole incident raises another question with regards to Amazon. How carefully are they screening products they are selling to their customers?

nudone

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Re: DRM hits a new low as Amazon hits the delete key
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2009, 12:03:50 PM »
Quote
Welcome to the new form of colonialism - who needs a physical empire when everything can be controlled electronically?

amen.

herneith

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Re: DRM hits a new low as Amazon hits the delete key
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2009, 12:53:03 PM »
I never agreed with this DRM to start.  On the one hand I can see the publishers wanting to protect the author's copyright etc, but on further thought, it is almost the same as buying a 'physical' book.  Using the argument that the DRM was put in place to prevent piracy of books, whats' to stop someone from lending out their physical books to dozens even hundreds of people?  Libraries anyone?  Thievery is thievery whatever the mode.  If someone wants to steal something, it's obvious they had no intention of purchasing the item in the first place.  My resentment in regards to DRM is that, to my mind, I'm being treated as a potential thief when purchasing an electronic book with vendors who employ this DRM mode.  They are presupposing that I am going to redistribute these books to others for free thereby doing them out of potential profits.  With this logic, I presume everyone whoever lent out a physical book to friends or family are thieves!  The implications of removing books off peoples Kindles without prior notice bodes ill for the future.  What next?  Are these vendors going to start charging people criminally with lending their physical books out?     
SKWilliams
It's stupid proof!

wraith808

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Re: DRM hits a new low as Amazon hits the delete key
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2009, 03:45:39 PM »
Using the argument that the DRM was put in place to prevent piracy of books, whats' to stop someone from lending out their physical books to dozens even hundreds of people?  Libraries anyone?   

Well, you have to buy each book you loan someone, i.e. you can't buy 1984 once and loan it to more than one person- and while he has it you don't.  Digital media doesn't follow the same rules.  DRM as it is currently isn't the answer, but digital rights should be protected in some form or fashion.

Ehtyar

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Re: DRM hits a new low as Amazon hits the delete key
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2009, 06:38:17 PM »
If they sold something that wasn't theirs to sell, then I'm not sure that anyone can say that it is wrong for the items to be 'returned' and the money paid back to them.
Utterly disgusting behavior from Amazon.

[rant]
On the other hand...anyone who bought into Kindle probably agreed to some outrageous TOS that they didn't read or understand and are now being bitten in arse by it. Maybe this will cause people to use some common sense before they buy their next gadget.

Ehtyar.

P.S. STOP BUYING PUBLIC DOMAIN WORKS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!! YOU ALREADY PAID FOR PRIVILEGE OF HAVING YOUR KINDLE, DO YOU REALLY NEED TO PAY TO GET FREE STUFF ONTO IT??
[/rant]

Stoic Joker

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Re: DRM hits a new low as Amazon hits the delete key
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2009, 11:08:58 PM »
Now the thing I find intriguing is that everybody seems to think this kind of behavior on the part of the draconian media copyright types, is new. It isn’t. There was a time back when (before the internet) that anyone with a dual cassette deck rig (like me) could knock off tapes by the dozen, for all their friends. These folks were too difficult to prosecute … however others were not so lucky.

During these arcane (pre-interweb) times I owned a small (dive) biker bar. In said bar, we occasionally had “bands”, which is a term I’m using loosely considering it was typically just some (half-lit) hick with a guitar. The bar legally seated approx 50 people. E.g. we’re not talking about a huge operation here.

Enter BMI (Broadcast Music Inc.). On one fine spring afternoon (hehe) a pair of large dark sedans flew into the parking lot, the doors flew open and the occupants then stormed the building. Two stood watch by the outer doors; one yanked the door open and held it for their “leader” and remained there for the duration of the “visit” while the rest came goose stepping in. They then formed semi-circle around the “leader” which was I’m guessing to be an impressive (and intimidating) “display” of themselves.

They then proceeded to explain that I was to be fined at a rate of $25,000 per person, per song (sound familiar?), if I continued to have live entertainment without an entertainment license. Okay… The license was however $20,000 per year.

So… crucifying little guys that are easy to find is perfectly normal behavior for these “people”. I can testify to that from experience.

Incidentally there was another group of assholes that made the exact same entrance. Pickup trucks flew into the parking lot and a bunch of folks in paramilitary gear jumped out and stormed the building. Two stood watch by the outer doors; one yanked the door open and held it for their “leader” and remained there for the duration of the “visit” while the rest came goose stepping in. They scattered propaganda leaflets everywhere and then joined their “leader” which was I’m guessing to be an impressive (and intimidating) “display” of themselves. Who were these jagoffs? Well we are in the south here, and it was indeed the Klu Klux Klan.

Neither group got what they wanted, but both did leave me glad that I carry a gun.

tinjaw

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Re: DRM hits a new low as Amazon hits the delete key
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2009, 11:30:54 PM »
You should have called the KKK when the BMI folks were there. They probably would have surrounded the BMI folks and told them to fork over $25,000 each if they wanted to leave the county alive.

IainB

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Re: DRM hits a new low as Amazon hits the delete key
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2009, 06:56:44 AM »
Why I do not recommend that people buy a Kindle: I had read that Amazon had inserted the "delete in situ" technology into the Kindle, and I suspiciously wondered why...now I wonder no more.
It would seem to be supremely arrogant for such a company as this to have a premeditated policy and to exercise a unilateral authority for intervention and invasion of the consumer's property and rights in this manner. It beggars belief. What a staggering and telling action.